and they have this meeting, and she describes how kushner had a manila folder with him. he opens this folder, and he wants to tell the president about it, and the president says, i don't want to know anything about it. then kushner says it's not really a big deal. well, it turned out to be one of the biggest deals in this entire russia investigation. but what's so interesting there is she gives us this behind the scenes look about the president, every time they would go to him and say, hey, we may have potentially a problem here, he would say, i don't want to know about it. i don't want to hear about it. so they never told him, and it turned out to be a very big deal despite what kushner thought. >> plausible deniability? >> perhaps. you see this throughout these fbi interviews of how the president tries to distance himself from some of this. >> and we'll talk more impeachment later on in the show. thank you, gentlemen, i appreciate it. president trump clinging to gordon sondland's recollection of the september 9th phone call as part of his no quid pro quo defense. there's only one problem. did that call even really happen? we'll dig into that next.