Let him finish excuse me a minute. The president , of course, was known to be upset about the recusal in the first place. But look, this is on the front side of all the litany of things you heard about. At the same time, as i said, it went way beyond from the Attorney Generals perspective, way beyond wrong the recusal called for under the regulation thats just wrong. That is wrong. That is not the reading of the regulation. Read it. And the ethics rules for lawyers, rule 1. 7 for lawyers, conflicts of interest. He cannot investigate a campaign in which he was a material part of that campaign. He cannot do it under the ethics rules for lawyers or under the ethics regulations. Open and shut. He could not participate there are three types of investigations that investigation the department of justice. There are three types of ken, what are you saying . There are three types of investigations at the department of justice. Criminal and civil are what people think of most, of course. The first thrust and the primary thrust of the Russia Investigation was the third one at the department of justice, thats counterintelligence. This is a russian meddling of one form or another, at least an attempt, in american affairs. That is a counterintelligence investigation first and foremost. The regulation that governs recusal does not touch that, does not touch that. Its criminal. Thats where this whole thing began. Thats where this whole thing began, and the Attorney General recused himself way beyond merely criminal investigation. He he took all of the items off the table at the department of justice, including those nonaddressed by the regulation. There are very as he was required to do in the role of counsel to the president to call up the Attorney General and question what he was doing and why and why the scope ken, this is the president who believes that the job of the Attorney General is to protect him, it seems like. I mean, is that the job of theAttorney General . Thats your position, anderson. Youve long held that position, anderson. I would think that most white House Counsel certainly think its their job to protect the president. The Attorney Generals job is wait. The white House Counsels job to protect the president or the presidency . The Office Of The President . My understand is don mcgann an excellent distinction. Excellent distinction. The presidency, the Office Of The President serves the president in his official capacity, period, and thats it. That is it. The Attorney General has an unusual role as a Cabinet Member in that unlike the other Cabinet Members, the term has independent decisionmaking authority. Thats part of what weve talked about here. The Attorney General also has, like all the other cabinet secretaries, Policy Implementation and some political, meaning dealing with capitol hill in particular, responsibilities that genuinely are not independent. They do fall under the direct
authority appropriately of the president. Just like all the other cabinet secretaries. The piece were talking about with Attorney General sessions is that independent Legal Authority under the Attorney Generals Office that doesnt exist under any cabinet secretary. Thats it. Professor, it was appropriate for the president of the United States to not only tell don mcgann to try to get Jeff Sessions to not recuse himself but also other senior members of the white house . Absolutely not. Theres not a Single Authority thats reputable that i heard say Jeff Sessions was not required to recuse himself from the investigation of russian interference in the election when he worked for the campaign. He was required to under the lawyers ethics rules and the government ethics rules. An open and shut case. And for the white House Counsel or anyone else in the white house to pressure the Attorney General to violate the law and to violate his ethical obligations as a lawyer, is just flatout wrong. Now whether it was criminal Obstruction Of Justice or not is for Robert Mueller to determine. And im not going to opine on that. It is Obstruction Of Justice. And it is just flatout wrong for anyone to argue that the Attorney General could somehow supervise an investigation of a Political Campaign in which he had a very Important Role when that campaign was accused of collaborating with the russians. Find out whether or not they collaborated with the russians and whether or not it was criminal. The Attorney General had no business being involved in that investigation, and he did the right thing by recusing. Were going to anderson . Go ahead, ken. Lets keep in mind that this obviously trump won the race. But there are also the russian involvement was, weve traced now, to ferguson, to the jill stein campaign. This is not just about the Trump Campaign. So when you look at the other aspects of what the department of justice is responsible for, at least those other areas, the
professors objections fall away. I appreciate what he has to say in the criminal context, and explicitly that which is what the regulation related to special counsel addresses. But not in the other areas of responsibility of the department of justice. Investigating jill stein . This is ridiculous laughable. This whole thing is laughable no, are you twisting my words, professor. Youre very good at that. Come on no, im not this is an investigation of russia. This has nothing to do with it it is an investigation of russia. Im worried about russia. You worry about jill stein. And who collaborated with the the activities span across more than just the Trump Campaign and attempts to influence the american electorate through the Trump Campaign. Theres also through stein and ferguson who collaborated with them. Theyre being investigated, and Attorney General sessions did the right thing by recusing. Both points have been made. Always good to have you on. Thank you. Ahead, what were learning about the investigation President Trump has been calling for again and again of the Clinton Foundation. The question, is it justified or is it, as some say, diversion from questions about russia . More ahead. Its time for sleep numbers lowest prices of the season on the only bed that adjusts on both sides to your ideal comfort, your sleep number setting. And snoring . Does your bed do that . Its the lowest prices of the season on the queen c4 mattress with adjustable comfort on both sides. Now only 1199, save 400. Ends soon. Visit sleepnumber. Com for a store near you. Oh, this is bad. As long as people misplace their keys, you can count on geico saving folks money. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. Trying to put pressure on jim comey, former fbi director. He used all sorts of people he tried to have twist comeys arm to do what he wanted in terms of allegedly turning down the heat on michael flynn, former National Security adviser. He had, for example, dan coates allegedly was asked to do something with comey, as well. Weve seen repeated instances in which donald trump has used multiple people to try and get what he wants. Thats fundamentally what the question is here. Yes, theres this broader question, broader Criminal Question of Obstruction Of Justice. What were seeing is a president who is used to getting his way, came from the private sector where hes a ceo and sort of, you know, active by edict, who comes into the presidency and tries to do the same sort of thing. I think that fundamentally is what these additional sources reveal. Yes, once again, this isnt just him saying, hey, mcgann, go and talk to session, try and keep him from recusing. It is donald trump using every tool in his arsenal to try and make something happen which is probably inappropriate. According to the wolff book, wants his Attorney General to act like his lawyer like cohn did in the private sector. Donald trump more than Anything Else in his presidency has wanted this investigation to go away, and he has shown a willingness to do anything to make it go away. That is consistent with his years as roy cohn as his lawyer. What cohn did in the years as his mentor and the president s lawyer enabled donald trump to conduct a business that was constantly evading the law. Thats really the hallmark and the consistency of the trump operation. Evasion of legal and normal protocols. The number of lawsuits filed against donald trump, the amount of litigation initiated by trump and roy cohn to shut people up. This was not your normal business operation. Weve seen this transferred to the white house. Now as phillip has suggested, donald trump thinks he can operate with the same kind of impunity and evade the law once again. What is frustrating him and
its clear from Michael Wolffs book, as well, and from what steve bannon has told us through so many of these passages is his outrage that he is subject to the law and to protocols that are inherent in the presidency and common decency in government. And he will not go along with him. And back to this question about sessions recusal, sessions was head of the National Security portfolio for the Trump Campaign, and as we now know and and certainly sessions knew, he had these meetings with russians. So if you did not recuse yourself, you might really have some serious consequences. Of course he recused himself. And this was a time when it was the wild west in the west wing. You didnt there was really no control. Reince priebus was pretty neutered from the beginning as chief of staff. You had steve bannon running around doing whatever he wanted. Jared kushner doing what he wanted. It was a free for all. To your point, donald trump was not used to the restraints that are built into the presidency and the way things operate. It surprises me not at all that he would ask for his roy cohn because of how instrumental roy cohn was in Donald Trumps life. The influence that he had. Trump is quoted saying more than once that roy cohn would brutalize people. And that he was vicious to people on my behalf. And that roy cohn demanded ironclad loyalty which is partially where trump gets this idea of loyalty, almost mafialike in a way. Thats not how the presidency works in this country. This is consistent with whats report of how donald trump has run his entire operation, run his entire life. So why would it surprise anyone that he would change to anyone different . It should scare people that he would want a roy cohn in the white house with him considering the illegal stuff i have to say it would
disappoint me if he did not try to keep his Attorney General in the game on a very important matter. And as he said, Robert Kennedy wanted to protect him he cited Robert Kennedy. He cited eric holder. Eric holder, the only cabinet in history who got accused actually was guilty of Contempt Of Congress which who we as republicans were critical of by definition is obstruction, by the way, for we were critical of that. Now were against Jeff Sessions doing the right thing . If im the president , i want to have my a. G. Fully in the game, operating on anything. And its not see, one of the things i think you guys maybe not maybe theres a conflict of interest. Right. This is inconsistent. Okay. But if im donald trump, im saying he criticized holder for what he did, but now were all of a sudden going after Jeff Sessions for doing the right thing and recusing himself . Where youre making the assumption is that donald trump heard from all the attorneys who said, no, hes got to recuse himself or its obstruction. That did not take place. He was going to him and saying, dont get out of it. And you just heard two very distinguished lawyers who had a completely different read of this. Im not a lawyer. But i work for a law firm. And i can tell you if you get two in the elevator, youll have two opinions. And thats what happens. Some people believe that he had to recuse himself. Remember it was because he wanted to protect him at all costs. Not for the investigation the article said to hold out as long as you could. In terms of sessions meeting with russians, i was on the military committee, Foreign Affairs committee. We met with Foreign Policy all the time, foreign heads of state, quite often and ambassadors. Claire mccaskill said i never met with one, and find out two, three months earlier she had tweet go tweeted about meetin with the russian ambassador. I didnt say there was anything wrong with meeting with russians. He mentioned the hearing all i said is its relevant to the investigation. Lets find out where it goes. Paris, where are you . I think the first problem is were citing things in this book as fact. Were assuming that bipartisan
across the board, democrats, journalists, have said there are questions about the voracity of the book. To assume that everything thats said about what the president said as it relates to the Attorney General is assumed. Were questioning the fact that loyalty is the problem. When has loyalty been a problem . When you look at any administration i happen to be one who worked in one for four years veto corleone want loyalty we can talk about dictatorships, the mavia, or the white house which i worked in for four years 435 members of Congress Want loyalty and 100 members of the senate. Theres nothing wrong with its not to donald trump, its to the american people. Correct. And ill point out that the roy cohn quote doesnt come from the book. It comes from New York Times reporting. Thats correct. And i would say the New York Times has not been overly friendly how about theyve been more accurate than the white house on most
things that have come out. Exactly. Maria . The problem is that the truth hasnt been overly friendly to this administration because they dont believe in the truth. And thats exactly the image thats coming out. It is whether you want to question every single thing that the author has said, Michael Wolff himself has said he has tapes. He has notes. He has proof. He stands behind it. Well see where that goes. But to your point, this comes out also out of reporting from the New York Times and the washington post. And so many journalists have been covering this administration for the last year. They all say that this book paints a very accurate image of what they have reported and what they have heard. Given like given what you know about roy cohn, a guy who ended up being disbarred for Stealing Funds from clients, a guy who worked for mccarthy, who was a thug in the Legal Profession and i knew him as a kid, knew an attorney who worked for him. Would it concern you if donald
trump wanted Jeff Sessions to be like roy cohn for him . I think you have to look at how the president looked at roy cohn. If he looked at somebody who was loyal to him and would do everything he could to he brutalized people. He was as long as a mass murders e mass murderer is nice, you dont want them by your side. My mom, if i spit on the ground, my mother would say thats artwork. I could say, i want somebody like my mom to appreciate and love me like that because i may be wrong, but my mother will look at me and say my son is right. I think what the president is doing is saying i want people around me who understand me, who appreciate me, and will do their best to be loyal to plea. With all due respect, it sounds like you want enablers. Your mom was an enabler. Thats not what the Attorney General role is real quick coming up, well hear from a senator on the Judiciary Committee about obstruction next. You wont believe how much is new at red lobster. That is, until you taste our new menu. Discover more ways to enjoy seafood with new Tasting Plates small plates, with big flavor like yucatan shrimp covered in chililime butter and caramelized pineapple. And if you like hot, buttery maine lobster, get your hands on this petite red lobster roll. For new entrees, explore globallyinspired dishes like Dragon Shrimp with a spicy soyginger sauce. With so many new dishes and all the classics you crave, what are you waiting for . Come taste whats