Transcripts For CNNW Anderson Cooper 360 20180830 00:00:00 :

CNNW Anderson Cooper 360 August 30, 2018 00:00:00

Nice. Reporter new york. Thank you so much for joining us again tonight. Up next is ac 360. John berman in for Anderson Cooper tonight. The president says hes an Excellent Guy, so why did he just give him a shove out the door . Was it something he said . John berman here in for anderson. Those are the two questions tonight about departing white House Counsel don mcgahn. Mr. Mcgahn found out he was departing the same way secretary of state Rex Tillerson did, by reading the president s twitter feed. That tweet says white House Counsel don mcgahn will be leaving his position in the fall, shortly after the confirmation, hopefully, of judge Brett Kavanaugh to the United States supreme court. I have worked with doug for a long time and truly appreciate his service. And sure enough, when the president was asked about it this afternoon, he had nothing but praise. A good man, a very good man. Don, Excellent Guy. Don mcgahn is a really good guy. Been with me a long time. Privately before this he represented me. He has been here now, it will be almost two years, and a lot of affection for don, and hell be moving on probably the private sector, maybe the private sector, and hell do very well. But hes done an excellent job. Which you would expect him to say. Keeping him honest, though, it doesnt say much, and it certainly did little to quiet the speculation about the real reason don mcgahn might have gotten the heaveho. Maggie haberman reports that a Daughter Ivanka and jared kushner, who have not had much stage time since act 2 of this drama, that they were not mcgahn fans. According to maggie, ivanka was angry about a report earlier this month about how some of the white house were unaware of how extensive mr. Mcgahns cooperation with mr. Mueller really was. Apparently quite extensive. Hes given about 30 hours of testimony to investigators, sitting down several times over many months. We were told the president was unnerved when he learned this only this month. So was that a factor in mcgahns departure . Cnns jim acosta put to it the president. Are you concerned what he said to the mueller team . No, no. I had to approve it. We didnt claim executive no i dont have to be aware. We have we do everything straight. We do everything by the book. And don is an Excellent Guy. So hes still an Excellent Guy. But is that all he is to the president . Or did he become something else, something more dangerous in the president s mind when news first broke that mcgahn was cooperating with mueller . Did he go from Excellent Guy to certain member of the Rodent Species when the president mentioned in a tweet . The failing New York Times wrote a fake piece today implying because white House Counsel don mcgahn has given hours of testimony to the Special Counsel, he must be a john dean type rat. But i allowed him and others all to testify. I didnt have to. I have nothing to hide. Well ask john dean than in a moment. But the point of the president s tweet, was it to dismiss the idea that he considers don mcgahn a rat or tipping a hand that he does . That is the question. Perspective now from someone who as a member of the Senate Judiciary committee has had extensive dealings with don mcgahn. Senator chris coons, democrat of delaware. We spoke just moments ago. So senator coons, today the chairman of your Committee Tweeting you hoped the news of mcgahns Departure Wasnt True and urging the president not to let that happen. You also had the Majority Leader Mitch Mcconnell call the news sad news for our country. Were you surprised to hear them speak out on this when often they choose to stay silent . Well, i was surprised by the news that don mcgahn, the white House Counsel, is about to leave. He has worked tirelessly to advance one of President Trumps key objectives, which is to confirm conservative judges. And i did find in working with Don Mcgahn On Judges for delaware that its possible to have a constructive Working Relationship with him. But ive got my own questions or concerns about what it means that he is departing. My belief is that don mcgahn has been advising President Trump strongly against doing things that would be inappropriate like interfering in the Mueller Investigation. And its my hope that his successor will also take that same position given the ways in which President Trump continues to tweet against the Mueller Investigation and to sort Of Harass And Press Attorney General Sessions. Im concerned that one of the members of his legal team who i think has been pushing him to be responsible may be replaced by someone who doesnt. Do. You think its a coincidence that this announcement comes just a week and a half after the white house was caught offguard by The Revelation that mcgahn spent some 30 hours being interviewed by muellers team . You know, john, i dont know least for. So Lindsey Graham said yesterday the relationship between the president and sessions is beyond repair. And that the president probably should replace him after the midterms. Why the change . Why the change do you think . And without these republican senators supporting jeff session, do you think that gives the president the political cover to fire him . Well, just to be clear, other republican senators said recently that this was a terrible idea, that the Attorney General should not be dismissed. Attorney general session, someone with whom i have many Policy Disagreements over issues from Voting Rights to immigration is one of the earliest and strongest supporters of President Trump. He was the first senator to endorse him. They share many positions on a wide range of issues. So frankly, i was surprised by senator grahams statement. Senator graham followed it up by another statement that he still insisted that President Trump not interfere in any way with the Mueller Investigation. My concern here, john, is given how closely Attorney General Sessions and President Trump align on so many issues, his pressing the Attorney General to resign really i think is all about the president s desire to interfere in or end the Mueller Investigation. You brought up the fact that senator graham said he would insist whoever replaces sessions promised to protect Robert Mueller. But do you believe that republicans, when push comes to shove, when the next nominee comes up, will insist on that . How can they insist on that short of passing a law which i know youve been pushing for but isnt going anywhere . Well, on your point its not going anywhere, back when we introduced it, senator tillis, senator graham, myself, senator booker, we introduced bills to protect the Special Counsel by making it harder for president to fire him by giving him a remedy to go to a threejudge panel and be reinstate d if tha was an improper hearing, we were told wed never get a hearing. Then we got a hearing. We were told wed never get a markup. We got a markup. We were told wed never get it oit of committee. Our bill got out of committee and is now on the floor. Im convinced if Majority Leader mcconnell would give us a vote, it would pass by a vetoproof majority. So i just i am more optimistic about the relevance and value of that bill perhaps than others. Senator chris coons, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you, john. So its times like these you find yourself asking why dont we have a former white House Counsel who served during a major scandal to talk to . Well, luckily tonight we do. Former nixon white House Counsel john dean, he joins us, along with david gergen who also served in the nixon white house, and harvards Alan Dershowitz who most certainly did not. He is the author most recently of the case against impeaching trump. Welcome. I want to start with you, as a former white House Counsel who knew too much, how much of this departure has to do with the fact that maybe don mcgahn knows too much . Well, its very hard to tell. The way it was done is what raises some suspicion since it was done by a tweet. But apparently it was done in reaction to a leak. So we really cant be sure that this was any kind of anger that he had towards his white House Counsel. And it doesnt its not clear whether he had planned to do it through any normal procedure and then suddenly decided to do it. So i cant tell at this point. I dont try to guess whats in mr. Trumps mind. Professor dershowitz, whats the risk to the president to have his white House Counsel leaving in the middle of an investigation . And is there any risk to don mcgahn as someone who is a witness in this investigation . I think there are risks on all sides. There is a risk to keeping him as white House Counsel. Hard to imagine somebody being a witness against the president and white House Counsel at the same time that does raise the specter of the Conflict Of Interest at the same time that ive raised over and over again concerning rod rosenstein. Can he be a witness and can he be conducting the investigation . But as the godfather said, keep your enemies close to you. If they were afraid that mcgahn would be turning against the president , the best guarantee would be to keep him close, not to let him go. What the president has done is letting him go and praising him, hoping that that will keep him from providing even more information. Remember, this is not the first time this kind of thing has happened. Go back to the clinton administration. Clinton did not like janet reno. He didnt trust her, but he bit the bullet, and he didnt fire her because he understood that the political consequences of firing her, the perception that he was trying to interfere in the investigation by Kenneth Starr would outweigh the benefits of having a new Attorney General. And i think the same thing is true with this president. I think on reconsideration, it would have been far better to keep everybody in place, maybe add to the team, as hes done by adding flood and others. But the idea of firing or allowing to resign raises all kinds of risks, both for the president , but also basically for the administration of justice. David gergen, you have noted that don mcgahn has been a white House Counsel of enormous importance and influence. Absolutely. And one of the most effective people in the white house at doing the big job that he came to do. And that was to help recruit, shepherd through a great number of judges who would meet conservative standards and would be regarded as, say, quote, safe choices by conservatives. And hes now got over 50 judges have come through the pipeline coming out through the mcgahn office and up for confirmation. And half of those, 26 are for these very prestigious, very significant courts of appeal around the nation. Weve seen a number of decision even in the first few movbnths the Trump Administration that have been made by appointees say of President Obama or president clinton who have gone against trump. And mcgahn is ensuring that the conservatives are going to have a very powerful voice. So im with alan in one sense. I just dont know why he is letting go. In fact, im really curious about why he did it in such an insulting fashion. This is a man who, after all, has been there for him time and time again and brought him gorsuch and cavanaugh. And yet he is forced out the door by the president. And what i would consider a humiliating fashion, especially for someone of don mcgahns stature, and very importantly his effectiveness for the president. He did it on twitter as opposed to a phone call or god forbid, face the face in person. Yes, right. John dean, based on what we read about don mcgahn, it wasnt easy being don mcgahn inside the white house. According to the New York Times, he had been telling people that a day without a single summons to the oval office was a good day. Well, thats very believable. And heres the thing, though. The circumstances have changed since my era as white House Counsel. He represents the office of the president and not the president as a personal individual. So that makes a difference. And that resolves a lot of conflicts he has. And im sure he explained that to trump, and trump also knew there were questions as to whether their conversations were privileged. So it wasnt an impossible job, and he kept his head down and did the judgeships where his office proved very functioning and very vital. So Professor Dershowitz go ahead. Let me ask this question. You can answer how you want. I think sometimes youve been misunderstood in your defense of the president , because among other things you said he should not fire jeff session. Right. He should not fire Robert Mueller. And don mcgahn, we understand, has been crucial in holding the line on that. It may be because of don mcgahn and don mcgahn only that Robert Mueller Wasnt Fired One year ago, and same thing with jeff session. So are you concerned with the absence of don mcgahn might mean . Yes, of course. I think mcgann has been a source of imposing the rule of law on the white house. Look, im not defending trump. Im not defending his actions. Ive only expressed my professional scholarly views on what i think the law is and what i think the constitution says. I want to explain one thing. There are three kinds of privileges. The president does not have a lawyer client privilege with the white House Counsel, but he does have Executive Privilege with the white House Counsel. And then there is a third area that is very much in doubt that the courts have generally ruled against that is if you are a subject of an investigation, you can have a Joint Defense Privilege with other people, and some have tried to raise that about white House Counsel. But the courts have generally ruled against it. But the president and his legal team made a decision to waive Executive Privilege. And i think maybe they may be regretting that decision, because they dont know exactly what mcgahn said to mueller. And that creates the problem of having a white House Counsel who may end up testifying against you while advising you as the president , as the incumbent of the presidency in the white house. Professor, you telling me that when the president tells us he is not worried at all about what don mcgahn said for 30 hours behind closed doors to the Special Counsels investigators that maybe hes not being fully honest there . I cant imagine he isnt worried. If hes not worried, he should be worried. Whenever somebody on the inside spends 30 hours with somebody who is trying to get you, you got to start worrying. And you should have started worrying even before that happened and thought seriously about what your options were to reduce the amount of worrying that youre going to have after the fact. David gergen, i cut you off. Go ahead. Yeah, i just want to say, look, i think what all of this portends, john, were ten weeks away from the midterms, and not much is i think the white house is going to be careful not to rock the boat too much between now and the midterm. But afterwards what this suggests whats going on right now is President Trump has cleared away one of the main barriers in mcgahn who would have objected to firing session, especially has objected to Mueller Being fired, would resign over that, which would cause a real problem. Thing is in preparation for forcing sessions out after the midterms, bringing in someone, trying to get it through the senate who is going to be much more sympathetic to the president and would block any report from mueller going public, we could stop short of firing mueller, but could in effect force into confidentiality. There are a lot of things a new At

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