Who have been killed as terrorists, but there are as many as 400 or so who are civilians who have been killed. In other words, ten times as many civilians killed in pakistan, according to reports, as the number of people who were harshly interrogated by the cia. Yeah. Its going to become an increasing conversation and also what legal sort of guidelines there are going to be, david. Right. What the president , the Administration May be legally held responsible for down the road. Thank you for coming on this evening. We appreciate it. Thank you. Good to see you again. All right. Breaking news into cnn. We are receiving word of a possible hostage situation in sydney. Take a look at this video. This is video from just moments ago outside after the Lindt Chocolate shop in martin place, a pedestrian mall in sydneys central district. Looks normal, like nothing is going on. What authorities are concerned about is what may be going on inside that shop. Very Little Information at this time including how many hostages there may be or how many people they may be holding if this is, indeed, a hostage situation. What i can tell you is we have spoken with the New South Wales police media unit. Heres what they tell us. All we can confirm at this time is that there is a Police Operation taking place. We are recommending that no one goes near the area. We are trying to establish exactly what is happening. I can also tell you our affiliate there, news 7 in sydney, says there are two gunmen on the scene. We have not independently confirmed that yet. Obviously were working our sources on the ground there and will bring you the latest as soon as we have it out of sydney, australia. Also this, Sony Pictures is starring in its own nightmare right now. The celebrated studio is in full damage control mode after hackers exposed embarrassing emails, salaries, secrets. And now they are threatening, the hackers, this 8 billion company with a socalled Christmas Gift that promises to put sony, in its worst state. Joining me with insight on all of this, Cnn National Security analyst, bob baer, jamie detmer, a contributor for the daily beast. Thank you for being here. Bob, let me begin with you. Theres been so much talk about who the group is, the gop group of hackers, whether theyre directly in cahoots, if you will, with the north korean government or independent of it. A lot of people tieing it to north korea. Whats your take. First up, ive got to say i have an interest with this because i have two contracts with sony related to movies. Once were through that. This sounds like its very sophisticated. It looks like its revenge for this movie coming out. This it was done it was launched from multiple locations. Sony has a very good Cyber Security. They saw this coming four, five months ago and they tried to improve their security and these guys are good, whoever they are. Interesting we got this letter this afternoon, or the New York Times received a letter, cnn has not yet, from sony from the attorney for sony warning Media Outlets telling them, jamie, they should not report on some of this private information that has been leaked saying it is stolen information. Again, cnn has not received that letter yet. Are you surprised by that . No, not really. I mean, although i think its an impossible request. Once this information is out, even if mainstream organizations at the beginning of the report, it goes out on twitter, it goes out on facebook pages, then some of the new internet startups start reporting it and eventually the rest of the media have to follow. So i think sony should have been better guarding their secrets rather than making requests now for information not to be shared. Bob, when you talk about information such as celebrity phone numbers, emails, et cetera, exposed, private embarrassing emails, this breach forces change, but this is it is a fact, a security fact, it seems, that every Single Company is vulnerable to this now, no matter how good or how poor their walls are. Anybody who goes on the internet, with a computer, is hack hackable. The only computers that are not are standalones. Intelligence communities have figured out this long ago. They have to be separated physically. They in no way could ever access the internet because every computer is vulnerable. Theyre vulnerable in other ways, too. They send off emanations, tempest. If you have a secret to keep, dont put it on a computer, dont put it on a smartphone. Write it on a piece of paper, whisper it in anybodys ear. Nobody is safe. Any big company is vulnerable to this. If you insert any Big Company Name in its place, it would spell trouble for the companies, credibility, their stock. Online Security Experts say it is a guarantee hackers will hit the corporate world again and again. Deborah feyerick did a fascin e fascinating piece on this. Lets watch her piece and come back on the other side. Reporter Cyber Attacks against sony, target, home depot, jpmorgan chase, google, ebay, and every business sector, criminals stealing americans personal data, credit card numbers, as well as corporate secrets. Now imagine if similar Cyber Attacks made your lights go out or cut off your water supply. Imagine if the Critical Infrastructure we rely on every single day simply shut down . The threat is not only very real, its inevitable. It is only a matter of the when, not the if, that we are going to see something traumatic. Reporter admiral Michael Rogers heads the nsa and cyber command. We have seen individuals, groups, inside critical u. S. Infrastructure. Reporter thats right. Power plants, banking systems, air traffic control, subways. All are vulnerable. Years ago, what could have only been accomplished eed thra kinetic attack using missiles and bombs can be done with a few key strokes to wipe out a whole sector of our nations electric grid not for days or weeks but potentially for months. Reporter according to the department of homeland security, adversaries from china, russia, and elsewhere are inside hundreds if not thousands of u. S. Critical infrastructure computers. Its not just about getting infrastructure, it seems, but its also the ability to control those sectors. This is something that we worry a lot about. Reporter cnn was given rare access to the dhs heavily protected Cyber Security center. Its run by the dhs undersecretary Suzanne Spaulding who oversees private infrastructure experts scrutinizing realtime cyber breaches. The thing that keeps me awake at night is knowing that there is the potential there for adversaries to get into those control systems. Those systems that really run machinery, whether its gates on dams or parts of the electric grid. Reporter isnt this an act of war . Well, thats the milliondollar question. What the chinese are doing is really preparing the battlefield, if that day were to arrive, then they would have significant advantage. Reporter Cyber Security expert todd parker showed us just how easy it is to shut down Something Like a power grid. Here we have the hackers computer and the hacker has already broken into the electric utility and we have access to the electric utilitys network. We reverse engineered the codes which are running, the operation system running on this device which is controlling the electric grid in this scenario. Reporter once inside the system, the attacker waits to strike and then watch as the lights go off in less than a second. More than three quarters of the nations Critical Infrastructure is privately owned. Critics say those companies are not doing enough to safeguard their own systems. They dont want it coming out after their bottom line. Reporter this congressman says the threat is akin to knowing about the hijackers pre9 11 and still doing nothing. We know that theres a glaring vulnerability and not ruling with all urgency to close it. Reporter deborah feyerick, cnn, washington. All right. Let me bring back in my guest, bob, youre a National Security expert. So its more than clear that Big Companies from target, to home depot, to sony, are vulnerable these hacks, but realistically, how vulnerable are our power grids, our Financial Networks . Poppy, absolutely the bank weve seen them hit banks before and they can. Jp morgan. You can hack into a car and control the speed of the car. Its sort of whatever you can imagine, they can do. And the russian mafia is very good at this. The North Koreans as we now know. And we simply dont have the defenses in place to stop this sort of thing. So, jamie, given what bob ill also add there, its not just state actors. We know that al qaeda and isis have been looking at this for years. Al qaeda chiefs have been talking about this being a potential other pearl harbor if they can get inside Critical Infrastructure computers in the United States and the systems. Theyve talked about trying to bring banks down. Theyd like to do another 9 11, a financial crash, if you want. Isis has a whole generation of new young computer programmers working with them. Weve seen evidence on this on Online Activity and conversations going on. So its not purely moscow and beijing we have to be concerned about, but other nonstate actors as well. Jamie is absolutely right. Go ahead, bob. They are very sophisticated. They beat nsa at their game and theyve been very sophisticated in the fight for mosul. Using mobile wifi, defeating the National Security agency. They can easily take this sort of technology and hit our banks and i think its just a matter of time. Jamie is absolutely right. Yeah, and it begs the question, how are we going to fight this new war on that front . And how are we going to beef up our skills on that front to defeat it . Guys, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Wish we had more time. We have breaking news into cnn. Jamie, bob, thank you. This breaking news into cnn, we have nnew video of a possibl hostage situation all unfolding in sydney, australia. Youre looking at video shot moments ago from the Lindt Chocolate shop in martin place, a big pedestrian mall downtown in sydneys Central Business district. Its a possible spot for tourists and also people going to work. You think, you know, monday morning there. There is very Little Information at this time. What we dont know, how many possible hostages are there . How many people could be holding them at this point in time . The New South Wales police tell us this. Let me read you this quote. All we can confirm at this time is that there is a Police Operation taking place. We are recommending that no one goes near that area. Were trying to establish exactly what is happening. We also have an affiliate, news 7 on the ground in sydney, they say there are two gunmen involved. And cnn cannot independently confirm that. Were getting new information coming from our affiliate. Our affiliate on the ground telling us that around 9 44 a. M. Local time, remember, its monday morning there, a woman right there in sydneys Central Business district saw a man with a blue sports bag. She thought it was a gun. She called the police at that point in time. She said a man entered the Lindt Chocolate shop there, this is what the eyewitness is saying, and says this then turned into a hostage situation. What we also know at this point in time, according to seven networks, cnns affiliate on the ground in sydney, is that Civil Aviation is shut in terms of the airspace above sydney. Shut down right now. And our bureau, the bureau for the affiliate, news 7 in sydney, is located right near that area. Let me recap this for you. What youre looking at is video shot just moments ago in sydney, australia, where it is monday morning. This is from the Central Business district there. Concerns about a possible hostage situation in the Lindt Chocolate shop there in a pedestrian mall that is heavily traveled. Heres what we from our affiliate on the ground. Around 9 44 a. M. Local time, a woman say a man with a blue sports bag. She thought it might be a gun. She called the police. The man then entered that Lindt Chocolate shop. That is when we are told that it possibly turned into a hostage situation. Also as a precautionary method, were told that the airspace above sydney has been temporarily closed. We are obviously monitoring this incredibly closely, working with our sources on the ground. As soon as we have more information, we will bring it to you right here. Quick break. Well be right back. What does an apron have to do with Car Insurance . An apron is hard work. An apron is pride in what you do. An apron is not quitting until youve made something a little better. What does an apron have to do with Car Insurance . For us, everything. The getaway vehicle for all the confidence you need. Td ameritrade. You got this. Why not your eye color . New air optix® colors prescription contact lenses enhance your eye color for a naturally beautiful look with consistent comfort. Find your perfect color and get a free trial offer at airoptixcolors. Com. Its more than the car. Er. Find your perfect color and get a free trial offer for lotus f1 team, the Competitive Edge is the cloud. Powered by microsoft dynamics, azure, and office 365, the team can gain Real Time Insights and instantly share information around the globe. When every millisecond counts, staying competitive begins with the cloud. This is the microsoft cloud. All right. This breaking news into cnn. We have limited information. Theres a possible hostage situation under way right now in sydney, in the Central Business district in sydney. What youre looking at is video shot just moments ago of a chocolate shop, outside a chocolate shop. The Lindt Chocolate shop at martin place. That is a mall, very busy mall, in sydneys Central Business district. Again, not a lot of information. Heres what we know at this point in time. According to our affiliate in sydney, australias 7 network, theyre saying around 9 44 a. M. Local time, remember, it is monday morning there, a woman saw a man with a blue sports bag. She thought it could possibly be a gun. She then told the police. Were also told from our affiliate that that man with the bag entered the Lindt Chocolate shop. That is when our affiliate is reporting that this turned into a possible hostage situation. We also can tell you that reuters at this hour is reporting the sydney operahouse has been evacuated as a precautionary measure and that the airspace, according to 7 network, the airspace above sydney has been temporarily shut due to this situation. Were working our sources on the ground. As soon as we have more information, we will bring it to you. Again, a possible hostage situation taking place monday morning in a very businey part downtown sydney at a heavily trafficked pedestrian mall. Those are shots up close of the windows. You cannot see much at all. As soon as we have more information, of course, well bring it to you on cnn. Also this, its a country that offers public support to the u. S. Led efforts to fight terrorism, to fight isis. It also is linked to fundraising for terrorist networks around the world. Were talking about qatar. Tiny but very wealthy nation. And critics have said this is the most twofaced nation in the world. Let me bring in our guests to talk about this, Jamie Dettmer who wrote a fascinating article about qatar for the daily beast and bob baer. The u. S. Relies on qatar in a lot of ways, sort of a midpoint, a negotiator who helps us with situatio situations, an ally in the region. But you wrote an article with a lot of points that shows that qatar is trying to please all sin sides here. We have several allies in the gulf that play both sides. Saudi arabia and kuwait, naming another two. The difference at the moment has been the Saudi Arabians seem to have made an effort to try to cut down on some of the terrorist funding thats coming from that country or at least the administration has been making more progress. Whereas qatar, theyre still having major problems. For example, they set up a crime a Financial Crime unit several years ago, but they havent mounted one prosecution. A number of the people who have been sanctioned by the u. N. , the u. S. , and the europeans, because theres evidence suggesting they have been channeling millions of dollars to al qaeda and other jihadist groups, are still free in qatar, have not been imprisoned. Theres been a lot of pressure in recent weeks from the administration on the qataris. Now were beginning to get a ground swell in congress. Last week about 24 lawmakers sent a letter to the treasury secretary asking for an update on whats happening to these figures that we know living in qatar, and we have allegations that theyve been funding money. Whats been happening to them and what further steps are the qataris going to make in order to try to cut down the funding to jihadist groups . So, bob, this is a fine line tha