Transcripts For CSPAN Countering Violent Extremism Part 2 20

Minutes. Good afternoon. Good afternoon good afternoon. After you have eaten a good meal, it is not time. I do not taken up until three a little time. Im excited about this afternoon, i was excited about this morning. More so about this afternoon because this is my area concentration and focus. Criminal justice. But you know, we had scholars here. Scholars, isnt that interesting . And guess what . They are muslim. Amazing. Amazing. But i think god for the opportunity. Being here. Before you introduce the panelists, a couple things. Housekeeping notes. You will have some q a cards on the table. We ask as we move along through youranelists that you pose questions and write a sentence not ay paragraph paragraph the cards will be collected and i will then read the question or the statement and refer to the panelists. Will that work that will work. Ok. I have been in this criminal justice business for 47 years. I spent most of my time in corrections. Islamst introduction to was a case. I dont know how many of you know about that case. It was a Supreme Court decision that had to do with the former Police Chiefs brother who was incarcerated at a reformatory. The issue was the right to practice his religion, which was islam. The Supreme Court indicated earlier as i indicated earlier was that he was. To roll. Ball started it has been my experience that muslims who are in prison have historically been the most disciplined, motivated, he and keepers of the piece. That, they have always been at the forefront of prison jails andeform inside prisons and outside jails and prisons. I think there has been such a lack of information about what goes on that people have this are atotion that they war inside the prison. That is an untruth. Progressivethe most inmates i have ever worked with. I have always been honored and proud to work with them. Population in prison is normally traumatized, uneducated, angry, looking for a cause. Of seeking that cause, prisons become ripe territory i will say that again rightht territory territory. Just waiting for that to happen. I read a report the other day and it talked about how they were having meetings, ok . Meetings with disruptive elements. All right . And, he was way of race because those who were involved were not being disruptive, they were educating the total population about what islam was all about. They are really pieceloving people. But we read all of this and were jeanette information that comes out of certain houses i wont say what color the houses. I need not do that because you already know. So what we really hope to do is to educate you and from there, we are taking of taking this on the road. What is really going on with the muslim center. I guess i am the only muslim here. I feel so comfortable. Laughter] i really do. Having said all of that from my notes, we have dr. Abdul baker. That is my english friend from london, ok . Ingram ii, the doctoral, you got it in honorary. And my good friend, joe, from houston, texas. I told him, we dont dress like that in texas. You have the wrong stuff on, joe. Where your boots. Injure hat. But on a serious where your boots and your hat. But on a serious note, i ask you to tune in and become educated. That, dr. Joe baker i will volunteer. [laughter] first of all, i would like to thank all of you for attending today. I would like to thank the new seum for hosting the event and my good friend here, mr. Ridley, ford what we call it . Beats me. Proctoring. That is the english term. Writing. You have been americanized. When i went to talk to you today is radicalization in the prism system. The prison system. Is it a hotbed for radicalization or is it reform. For is the role it plays reforming or for those prone to recidivism or along those lines. I like to speak to you today about to remain issues. How legitimate is the charge rampanticalization is in the u. S. Prison system. What challenges does government involvement pose to the process of the radicalization . And, how can muslims become an effective tool for change and positive reform of prisoners in prison . We are discussing the issue of prison radicalization. Very important first to challenge the notion of its existence. I am asking is a nonspecialist in that area. I do not have the Empirical Data but is there sufficient and. Data being provided by those making claims that radicalization is happening at a rampant rate in the u. S. Prison systems . Yes, there ared a susceptibility, but is it actually happening . That is a question we have to ask. We cannot just answer in the affirmative taste on biases we carry about people who are incarcerated, but muslims, or the nature of islam or any other minority faith group in the United States. To make claims like this is to malign a community and it is not only bad character but it is bad policy. Also cannot go without saying that assumptions about radicalization lay heavily on prevailing prejudices in the american psyche whether those be racedbased biases. Prejudicesbased functioning the same way. Many times these presences are the same way rigid esses are the same many times these the sameprejudices are way. In essence, this line of thought, racedbased or religiousbased prejudices 10 stewpan because of radicalism outside of him and foreign to the american cultural psyche. Judeochristian, civilized, and of the european background. The racialized tons of many of to discussions lens credence it. My comments today will not focus on the Empirical Data in instead if that had been the case i would be speaking to not in muslime of an american or as a thought leader in that munity but as a member of middleaged White American male. What i do want to talk to you about it and what my comments will focus on are the pismo to the epistemological ones. Values and we have on the other side religious ideologies and believes that may be imposed or seem to be opposed at times to the system that seeks to protect it. Let me to view an example. If i is an american and this is not my belief but if i were to say that i believe it is wrong for any american to have access to a firearm regardless i believepe it is all firearm should be banned. Goesis a believe which against a quarter constitutionally protected right. However, my adopting this belief does not forfeit my right to be protected by all of the other Constitutional Rights that are afforded to me. Is question becomes, in protecting the least and values that are not protected are popular, if we do so are we in some sense going against our own values and favor of another value system . Those we see as conservative or extreme when we protect their rights to practice those beliefs within the confines of american law, does that mean we are . Nabling illicit practices additionally, is it appropriate for us to label those as we see orconservative, a stair, beyond our own practices to veer off the path of radicalization when such labeling becomes a matter of policy, the problem grows. There is an obvious danger of the government exceeding its boundaries to religious dictation. Dictating to any individual or group the believes and or practices considered legitimate or a legitimate form of that faith. For National Security, it would seem to make sense to challenge the ideals that lead to radicalization and i think we to beree that those need challenged. But when the assumption of radicalization effectively counters terrorism and protect the american public, so why shouldnt officials try to marginalize theology by violent that poses a dangerous to individuals and society at large. The problem is when government attempts to dictate religious beliefs, they create a myriad of tensions. The practitioner of the religion ,argeted by that government this governmentsponsored religion, and appears to be a faith which is foreign to their own and one they do not recognize. Context of the broad Muslim Community, it appears that the government is playing favorites, dictating to them what is and is not acceptable. Contravenes the basic rights enshrined in the constitution that everyone, regardless of faith, should be protected under law. Come from backgrounds were the expectation from government is they intervened to the detriment of the individual whether it be the historical memories of programs like c the mosque. Within u. S. Programs which seek to dictate to muslims what their beliefs are should be will naturally cause mistrust and the inadvertently push people away and toward radicalism, not away from it. Even intervention into the ght process could see for theprevent or cb purpose of combating radicalization will oftentimes had the opposite effect. When the individuals that represent religious authority are seen as puppets are compromised, we cannot expect those who would lead toward radical beliefs to confide in them and to reform their ideas. Expect them cannot to stay away as they will consistently try to mend the rift to what they see as religious ideals. Ofexpecting a breach confidentiality from those who religious communities, we compromised the effectiveness of religious authority to be a positive force in device is a and. The solution in my humble opinion lies in not just creating institutions and initiatives grounded in faith, socially relevant and legally viable, but in reevaluating who really is an e mann, who really an whou really is imam, etc. N how are our personal this moretions of authoritative or valid then those of radicals . Here i think it is important to mention that muslim communities themselves cannot only denounce radical beliefs but a must see themselves as partners and be seen as partners by organizations and government authorities that want to work with them to combat the coopting of their beliefs for any purpose, whether it be for National Security assumptions or to promote extreme acts that would damage society as a whole at home or abroad. The question is, how can muslim beliefs be used for positive of people whoorm are prone to radicalization . With regards to government is an, what is needed open door policy for religiously affiliated or qualified individuals to be able to and advisingh, cars raided individuals that may be susceptible to radicalization. With regards to chaplains and those working in the rehabilitation of prisoners, it is absolutely imperative that a theology of personal choice and responsibility be inculcated in them and all those under their supervision. Speaking from a muslim theological perspective this means the basic lease of islam are taught to individuals in a way that does not slide into the tropes of anyone who is radical or extreme. Chaplains and other individuals as well as laypeople themselves may subscribe to a more conservative or liberal point of view about their own faith but we have to recognize it is not one individual perspective of religion, whether that be islam or any other religion, that is susceptible of being coopted i radicals or extremists. Indeed, we have seen in the past two years have versions of sunni islam, shia islam, even of sufi islam in the events that occurred in turkey has shown us religiousdless of orientation, each of these groups may be coopted for political purposes. Hallmarks of radical beliefs is their tendency to engage in groupthink, negating for the individual the personal autonomy and the ability to make their own decisions. Instead demanding from them. Medic instead demanding from dogmaticic beliefs. That everyoremost, individual believer be held accountable. In the koran, this idea personal responsibility is reiterated. Every soul shall be accountable for what endurance. Another verse says, social bear the burden of another. Another, every soul shall be concerned with themselves on the day of judgment. A man came out of the desert in us the prayer mohammed if you only prepared his prayer infested facet his fast and did basics, when he enter paradise and the prophet said yes. When he left, the prophet turned to his companions and said, if he is true to his word, then he enter paradise. In another tradition, the prophet said the muslim is the one where people are safe from his time and hands. The believer is the one people are secure from. And the immigrants is the one who migrated away from sinfulness. Another tradition he says, whoever kills a person who they are in covenant with, who they have a social of the net with, then they will not smell the scent of paradise even note the scent can be smelled from a distance of 70 items. Is tying this to what related to historical memory or points of consensus in early muslim scholarship is important as well so that those who are susceptible to radicalization can see that the ideas of being civic or having civic duty and responsibility have primacy not only in this text but have been upheld as ideals from the earliest muslim generation. The key here is inculcating in people the ability to make informed religious choices and that there religiously motivated practices be made consciously by themselves. Thee who are susceptible to must be taught that the ultimate responsibility of teaching every one of them falls upon themselves to ensure both their personal and public safety. Teaching the muslim individual, whether incarcerated or not, that they have a civic duty toward their fellow man and a responsibility in front of god to fulfill that duty is paramount. It will only be through the teaching of islamic leaves that will create a sense of identity in the religiously practicing individual and they will be protected from possible radicalization. The creates in the mind of practicing believer that their personal private practice does not and should not dictate the minimum of public religiosity. While i is an individual may be more conservative or a steer in my approach, i am not expected nor should i force that upon the public. In fact, what are my expected to do as a religious practitioners ensure for the public their personal safety from myself or anyone who once to do them harm. Most encouraging those susceptible to take personal responsibility for their actions and taking personal action by my being held responsible by god himself without any assistance from others along with prophetic traditions we mentioned, those working in the service and education of incarcerated individuals can be the prevention and the cure for possible engagement with radicalized groups. To sum up why long runon sentence, charges that radicalization is a problem, specifically charges that radicalization of islamic extremism is a problem needs to be substantiated by hard numbers so they are not used for propaganda station of muslims both inside and outside of prison. It creates a myriad of strategic compromisingsions both of American Values and jeopardizing andor reversing the desired effect of the radicalization. With, not targeting or sponsoring muslims with expertise necessary for positive change and reform of prisoners and those inclined to radicalization. Mams, andaplains, i others can and encourage personal responsibility, civic responsibility, and duty to god. Enabling those individuals to take personal agency in there religiously motivated practices. Thank you very much. That is all i have to say. Applause] thank you very much. One of the resounding things we have heard this morning and of course we are continuing, is education. Education. We need to focus on the politicians. Government leaders. Community leaders. The whole family as to what this is all about. From anotherear panelist. In the name of all the allmerciful. Allmerciful. We have people in society that commit crimes and then when we believe we have the right person we then put them away in our prison system. Hopefully we got the right person. What is consistent though is that these people, this population of people, that they are stored away for years on end. And, what we dont always consider at that time is that this population of people, they citizens. E returning they will be coming back into society. Realizehe point that we that, it raises two questions. One question is how will this person be when they come back hand, for all of these years that we store them away, what was there developmental process throughout that time that they were away . This you think about if a person is successful when society aback into lot of that does have to do with these support they receive when they come back out into society. But, a larger part of that has to do with how they were being beingated while they were incarcerated. So, we returned back to this point so we can discuss is a little bit further. When you look at the prison system from a theological basis and the inmate populations within the prison systems, you find interesting things. You learn a lot. Things you did not know existed. Ism, temple of the black group, the wiccan faith the native american spirituality. You learn things. But amongst everyone who is present, the largest population thehe people who ascribe to christian faith. That is the largest population. , what is pretty consistent after that would be muslims. State we currently have upwards of 20,000 people incarcerated. Closer to 25,000. Now, what is interesting with to work i need you all with me a little bit what is interesting with this is that the world of incarceration is not the real world. Function when to one is incarcerated are not necessarily the roles that you and i are operating by. It is in many ways a very survival is stick atmosphere ivalistic at nusra times. We place people in this environment and it is also a very authoritative environment. A lot of control is taken away from the people who are incarcerated. So, you kind of stew all of that in a pot and you have people that come very susceptible to antiantigovernment, establishment, antiauthority. This, we should mention a brief story. About 10 years ago i had a an agent of the federal bureau of investigations in my home. And, we had a bit of a debate in our discussion. Positive thehad theory they were operating with at that time was that what he had posited was the theory they were operating with at that time was that a person who is incarcerated and dense africanamerican and is muslim has whatfurther, someone refers to as recidivism equates to terrorism. Homegrown terrorism. We had this discussion, a debate. I believe i won me debate. On we need to say this the ground, realtime, in the prison system, you do not constantly find people who tocribe to ascribe radicalized islam ideology if we can utilize that term. You do not find people who ascribe themselves do isis, lets say. Right . Daesh and such. You dont find that. It is not really there and that type of away. So it is not, the prison system is not producing terrorists in that way. Is there radicalization . Is there extremism . Yes. That exists. That is part and parcel of the systemof what the prison breeds. Because it is a very survival is stick type of at sur vivalistic atmosphere, a very atmosphere, there is a tendency for people to see things in terms of black and white. Sometimes you might get red, but you wont see a Broad Spectrum of color. Now, there is Supreme Court<\/a> decision that had to do with the former Police Chiefs<\/a> brother who was incarcerated at a reformatory. The issue was the right to practice his religion, which was islam. The Supreme Court<\/a> indicated earlier as i indicated earlier was that he was. To roll. Ball started it has been my experience that muslims who are in prison have historically been the most disciplined, motivated, he and keepers of the piece. That, they have always been at the forefront of prison jails andeform inside prisons and outside jails and prisons. I think there has been such a lack of information about what goes on that people have this are atotion that they war inside the prison. That is an untruth. Progressivethe most inmates i have ever worked with. I have always been honored and proud to work with them. Population in prison is normally traumatized, uneducated, angry, looking for a cause. Of seeking that cause, prisons become ripe territory i will say that again rightht territory territory. Just waiting for that to happen. I read a report the other day and it talked about how they were having meetings, ok . Meetings with disruptive elements. All right . And, he was way of race because those who were involved were not being disruptive, they were educating the total population about what islam was all about. They are really pieceloving people. But we read all of this and were jeanette information that comes out of certain houses i wont say what color the houses. I need not do that because you already know. So what we really hope to do is to educate you and from there, we are taking of taking this on the road. What is really going on with the muslim center. I guess i am the only muslim here. I feel so comfortable. Laughter] i really do. Having said all of that from my notes, we have dr. Abdul baker. That is my english friend from london, ok . Ingram ii, the doctoral, you got it in honorary. And my good friend, joe, from houston, texas. I told him, we dont dress like that in texas. You have the wrong stuff on, joe. Where your boots. Injure hat. But on a serious where your boots and your hat. But on a serious note, i ask you to tune in and become educated. That, dr. Joe baker i will volunteer. [laughter] first of all, i would like to thank all of you for attending today. I would like to thank the new seum for hosting the event and my good friend here, mr. Ridley, ford what we call it . Beats me. Proctoring. That is the english term. Writing. You have been americanized. When i went to talk to you today is radicalization in the prism system. The prison system. Is it a hotbed for radicalization or is it reform. For is the role it plays reforming or for those prone to recidivism or along those lines. I like to speak to you today about to remain issues. How legitimate is the charge rampanticalization is in the u. S. Prison system. What challenges does government involvement pose to the process of the radicalization . And, how can muslims become an effective tool for change and positive reform of prisoners in prison . We are discussing the issue of prison radicalization. Very important first to challenge the notion of its existence. I am asking is a nonspecialist in that area. I do not have the Empirical Data<\/a> but is there sufficient and. Data being provided by those making claims that radicalization is happening at a rampant rate in the u. S. Prison systems . Yes, there ared a susceptibility, but is it actually happening . That is a question we have to ask. We cannot just answer in the affirmative taste on biases we carry about people who are incarcerated, but muslims, or the nature of islam or any other minority faith group in the United States<\/a>. To make claims like this is to malign a community and it is not only bad character but it is bad policy. Also cannot go without saying that assumptions about radicalization lay heavily on prevailing prejudices in the american psyche whether those be racedbased biases. Prejudicesbased functioning the same way. Many times these presences are the same way rigid esses are the same many times these the sameprejudices are way. In essence, this line of thought, racedbased or religiousbased prejudices 10 stewpan because of radicalism outside of him and foreign to the american cultural psyche. Judeochristian, civilized, and of the european background. The racialized tons of many of to discussions lens credence it. My comments today will not focus on the Empirical Data<\/a> in instead if that had been the case i would be speaking to not in muslime of an american or as a thought leader in that munity but as a member of middleaged White American<\/a> male. What i do want to talk to you about it and what my comments will focus on are the pismo to the epistemological ones. Values and we have on the other side religious ideologies and believes that may be imposed or seem to be opposed at times to the system that seeks to protect it. Let me to view an example. If i is an american and this is not my belief but if i were to say that i believe it is wrong for any american to have access to a firearm regardless i believepe it is all firearm should be banned. Goesis a believe which against a quarter constitutionally protected right. However, my adopting this belief does not forfeit my right to be protected by all of the other Constitutional Rights<\/a> that are afforded to me. Is question becomes, in protecting the least and values that are not protected are popular, if we do so are we in some sense going against our own values and favor of another value system . Those we see as conservative or extreme when we protect their rights to practice those beliefs within the confines of american law, does that mean we are . Nabling illicit practices additionally, is it appropriate for us to label those as we see orconservative, a stair, beyond our own practices to veer off the path of radicalization when such labeling becomes a matter of policy, the problem grows. There is an obvious danger of the government exceeding its boundaries to religious dictation. Dictating to any individual or group the believes and or practices considered legitimate or a legitimate form of that faith. For National Security<\/a>, it would seem to make sense to challenge the ideals that lead to radicalization and i think we to beree that those need challenged. But when the assumption of radicalization effectively counters terrorism and protect the american public, so why shouldnt officials try to marginalize theology by violent that poses a dangerous to individuals and society at large. The problem is when government attempts to dictate religious beliefs, they create a myriad of tensions. The practitioner of the religion ,argeted by that government this governmentsponsored religion, and appears to be a faith which is foreign to their own and one they do not recognize. Context of the broad Muslim Community<\/a>, it appears that the government is playing favorites, dictating to them what is and is not acceptable. Contravenes the basic rights enshrined in the constitution that everyone, regardless of faith, should be protected under law. Come from backgrounds were the expectation from government is they intervened to the detriment of the individual whether it be the historical memories of programs like c the mosque. Within u. S. Programs which seek to dictate to muslims what their beliefs are should be will naturally cause mistrust and the inadvertently push people away and toward radicalism, not away from it. Even intervention into the ght process could see for theprevent or cb purpose of combating radicalization will oftentimes had the opposite effect. When the individuals that represent religious authority are seen as puppets are compromised, we cannot expect those who would lead toward radical beliefs to confide in them and to reform their ideas. Expect them cannot to stay away as they will consistently try to mend the rift to what they see as religious ideals. Ofexpecting a breach confidentiality from those who religious communities, we compromised the effectiveness of religious authority to be a positive force in device is a and. The solution in my humble opinion lies in not just creating institutions and initiatives grounded in faith, socially relevant and legally viable, but in reevaluating who really is an e mann, who really an whou really is imam, etc. N how are our personal this moretions of authoritative or valid then those of radicals . Here i think it is important to mention that muslim communities themselves cannot only denounce radical beliefs but a must see themselves as partners and be seen as partners by organizations and government authorities that want to work with them to combat the coopting of their beliefs for any purpose, whether it be for National Security<\/a> assumptions or to promote extreme acts that would damage society as a whole at home or abroad. The question is, how can muslim beliefs be used for positive of people whoorm are prone to radicalization . With regards to government is an, what is needed open door policy for religiously affiliated or qualified individuals to be able to and advisingh, cars raided individuals that may be susceptible to radicalization. With regards to chaplains and those working in the rehabilitation of prisoners, it is absolutely imperative that a theology of personal choice and responsibility be inculcated in them and all those under their supervision. Speaking from a muslim theological perspective this means the basic lease of islam are taught to individuals in a way that does not slide into the tropes of anyone who is radical or extreme. Chaplains and other individuals as well as laypeople themselves may subscribe to a more conservative or liberal point of view about their own faith but we have to recognize it is not one individual perspective of religion, whether that be islam or any other religion, that is susceptible of being coopted i radicals or extremists. Indeed, we have seen in the past two years have versions of sunni islam, shia islam, even of sufi islam in the events that occurred in turkey has shown us religiousdless of orientation, each of these groups may be coopted for political purposes. Hallmarks of radical beliefs is their tendency to engage in groupthink, negating for the individual the personal autonomy and the ability to make their own decisions. Instead demanding from them. Medic instead demanding from dogmaticic beliefs. That everyoremost, individual believer be held accountable. In the koran, this idea personal responsibility is reiterated. Every soul shall be accountable for what endurance. Another verse says, social bear the burden of another. Another, every soul shall be concerned with themselves on the day of judgment. A man came out of the desert in us the prayer mohammed if you only prepared his prayer infested facet his fast and did basics, when he enter paradise and the prophet said yes. When he left, the prophet turned to his companions and said, if he is true to his word, then he enter paradise. In another tradition, the prophet said the muslim is the one where people are safe from his time and hands. The believer is the one people are secure from. And the immigrants is the one who migrated away from sinfulness. Another tradition he says, whoever kills a person who they are in covenant with, who they have a social of the net with, then they will not smell the scent of paradise even note the scent can be smelled from a distance of 70 items. Is tying this to what related to historical memory or points of consensus in early muslim scholarship is important as well so that those who are susceptible to radicalization can see that the ideas of being civic or having civic duty and responsibility have primacy not only in this text but have been upheld as ideals from the earliest muslim generation. The key here is inculcating in people the ability to make informed religious choices and that there religiously motivated practices be made consciously by themselves. Thee who are susceptible to must be taught that the ultimate responsibility of teaching every one of them falls upon themselves to ensure both their personal and public safety. Teaching the muslim individual, whether incarcerated or not, that they have a civic duty toward their fellow man and a responsibility in front of god to fulfill that duty is paramount. It will only be through the teaching of islamic leaves that will create a sense of identity in the religiously practicing individual and they will be protected from possible radicalization. The creates in the mind of practicing believer that their personal private practice does not and should not dictate the minimum of public religiosity. While i is an individual may be more conservative or a steer in my approach, i am not expected nor should i force that upon the public. In fact, what are my expected to do as a religious practitioners ensure for the public their personal safety from myself or anyone who once to do them harm. Most encouraging those susceptible to take personal responsibility for their actions and taking personal action by my being held responsible by god himself without any assistance from others along with prophetic traditions we mentioned, those working in the service and education of incarcerated individuals can be the prevention and the cure for possible engagement with radicalized groups. To sum up why long runon sentence, charges that radicalization is a problem, specifically charges that radicalization of islamic extremism is a problem needs to be substantiated by hard numbers so they are not used for propaganda station of muslims both inside and outside of prison. It creates a myriad of strategic compromisingsions both of American Values<\/a> and jeopardizing andor reversing the desired effect of the radicalization. With, not targeting or sponsoring muslims with expertise necessary for positive change and reform of prisoners and those inclined to radicalization. Mams, andaplains, i others can and encourage personal responsibility, civic responsibility, and duty to god. Enabling those individuals to take personal agency in there religiously motivated practices. Thank you very much. That is all i have to say. Applause] thank you very much. One of the resounding things we have heard this morning and of course we are continuing, is education. Education. We need to focus on the politicians. Government leaders. Community leaders. The whole family as to what this is all about. From anotherear panelist. In the name of all the allmerciful. Allmerciful. We have people in society that commit crimes and then when we believe we have the right person we then put them away in our prison system. Hopefully we got the right person. What is consistent though is that these people, this population of people, that they are stored away for years on end. And, what we dont always consider at that time is that this population of people, they citizens. E returning they will be coming back into society. Realizehe point that we that, it raises two questions. One question is how will this person be when they come back hand, for all of these years that we store them away, what was there developmental process throughout that time that they were away . This you think about if a person is successful when society aback into lot of that does have to do with these support they receive when they come back out into society. But, a larger part of that has to do with how they were being beingated while they were incarcerated. So, we returned back to this point so we can discuss is a little bit further. When you look at the prison system from a theological basis and the inmate populations within the prison systems, you find interesting things. You learn a lot. Things you did not know existed. Ism, temple of the black group, the wiccan faith the native american spirituality. You learn things. But amongst everyone who is present, the largest population thehe people who ascribe to christian faith. That is the largest population. , what is pretty consistent after that would be muslims. State we currently have upwards of 20,000 people incarcerated. Closer to 25,000. Now, what is interesting with to work i need you all with me a little bit what is interesting with this is that the world of incarceration is not the real world. Function when to one is incarcerated are not necessarily the roles that you and i are operating by. It is in many ways a very survival is stick atmosphere ivalistic at nusra times. We place people in this environment and it is also a very authoritative environment. A lot of control is taken away from the people who are incarcerated. So, you kind of stew all of that in a pot and you have people that come very susceptible to antiantigovernment, establishment, antiauthority. This, we should mention a brief story. About 10 years ago i had a an agent of the federal bureau of investigations in my home. And, we had a bit of a debate in our discussion. Positive thehad theory they were operating with at that time was that what he had posited was the theory they were operating with at that time was that a person who is incarcerated and dense africanamerican and is muslim has whatfurther, someone refers to as recidivism equates to terrorism. Homegrown terrorism. We had this discussion, a debate. I believe i won me debate. On we need to say this the ground, realtime, in the prison system, you do not constantly find people who tocribe to ascribe radicalized islam ideology if we can utilize that term. You do not find people who ascribe themselves do isis, lets say. Right . Daesh and such. You dont find that. It is not really there and that type of away. So it is not, the prison system is not producing terrorists in that way. Is there radicalization . Is there extremism . Yes. That exists. That is part and parcel of the systemof what the prison breeds. Because it is a very survival is stick type of at sur vivalistic atmosphere, a very atmosphere, there is a tendency for people to see things in terms of black and white. Sometimes you might get red, but you wont see a Broad Spectrum<\/a> of color. Now, there is Something Else<\/a> that we want to add to this pie that is being stewed. Thes the direction of prison system at current. If you go back far enough, you go back into the late 1800s throughout the 1920s and beyond that, the focus was on pennells asian, punishment, penalization, punishment. Evenpoint it was not lawful for them to speak to each other even when they were working they could not talk to each other. They became rehabilitative. Out into theetched 1980s or so with the war on drugs. On it is not so much focused rehabilitation anymore. We think it is. Make ourselves feel like maybe there. There are some programs that are there, but many are not relevant or not updated or not properly funded. Why would we put money into these people who are harming us and doing a disservice to our society . When they come out there may be a problem. They may not be able to integrate back into society. Abouto add to the point not really finding people to ascribe to terrorist groups and things like that in prison as a norm, prisons are pretty much like a quarantine. From a perspective of the inmates being held, they are operating almost 20 years in the past. Right . Monitors, screens, things of this nature, right . So when they are in their circles and they are learning, not always, but it is not uncommon that they are using chalk on boards and paper. You have people are probably dont even know how to utilize a computer, right . Connect that to the points of the doctors were much of the extremism coming by the way of the internet and online. They dont have that. It is a quarantine. So from this perspective, it is a safe environment to eight entering foreign ideas into it because it is quarantined. The nature off the prison system they are very susceptible to extremist ideas and behaviors. People as dr. E baker mentioned that are being incarcerated into our system who do ascribe to such ideologies. Now they are coming in. So you you can add these people to those people and it is very feasible that without the proper development, without the proper programs, without the proper access, they can easily be these people, these institutions, the government that has put these institutions and place that have you here for so long and your life is been taken away, he, they are the problem. They are the problem. Thatis our solution for problem. Both peoplesects who are muslim and nonmuslim in the prison system. I will tell you why. Throughout the prison system, islam is the second largest faith and it is vastly growing and many people are embracing the faith of islam throughout the prison system nationally. So, if they are influenced in this fashion and islam continues to spread, well then, these extremist ideologies may also spread along with that throughout the prison system. So what i am saying is, we have opportunities. We have opportunity now to get on the forefront of this. To get ahead of it right getting into these prison systems. Reaching the inmate population. Bringing them up to date in properly educating them and properly developing them concerning extremism and concerning misinterpretation of islam so they can be properly equipped to understand what is going on and to deflect any doubtful matters that may be presented to them. Then as they come back into society we may actually have realtime terrorists. So these are the thoughts i have to offer as a premise, at least to open me discussion realtime what is going on in the ground and to open up our minds and get is thinking a little bit. Thank you. [applause] again, i know you all have eaten. It is early afternoon. Lets stir up the hot a little bit. Directions out corrections, corrections is governed by public policy. Public policy leads to revenue. Money. As i heard the doctor speak, he was talking about improving conditions in corrections from a humane standpoint. A humanistic standpoint. That is something we typically miss. Along with the continued threat of educating people is to what islam is really all about. There is and should be an effort to educate correctional leaders because they set policy. They need to know and understand who they are setting policy for. But they do not have a clue. Right today, there are only three persons of color who run adult correctional systems in america. Really . Really. Now, what does that speak to. If we control legislative, ok congress and all of that you see a whole different operation, ok . Policy drives this stuff. It drives it. City councilman, local legislators, governors, they control this. Speaking ctor was conditions are poor and as a result of that people are angrier. They are already angrier by you put them in these horrible conditions and they become angrier. So they become vulnerable. Whoever makes it sound good, that is where they are going to go. Ok . The honorable, blessed dr. L, the bakr. The want to revisit some of framework. I think following on from jail and dr. Ingram following on dr. Ingram, one of the important things the agencies need to do, you have seen the particular framework i have used, we need to identify and understand the stages of development of the inmates as they are going into the prison institution. Why . Because it is likely as my colleagues say, to confirm they are going to replicate at the microcosmic level the very communities they come from. We see it with gangs. Gangs gravitate. Deep particular code of ethics they adhere to. British context, when they go into prison they gravitate towards those of likeminded ideology, culture, and background. , they are do not coming into an arena of uncertainty. Be it nonmuslims who convert, or muslims who come from a generality of communities, the Wider Community<\/a>. So they are very, very honorable and very susceptible. A professor and myself wrote an article that was released in turkish last month. Deinstitutionalization of islam. What you have when hearing from concernsr. Ingram are around that. Perception ofis a muslims coming in. They are going to make them gravitate or place them in categories they are comfortable with and this is potentially disastrous. In,rstanding inmate coming not just the clothing they are wearing, but understanding their religious direction. Their religious underpinning. Do they come from many of these communities . Not just the poor communities we mention before. You could produce this framework for the sufi community, this yet community. The shia cve ommunity. You can ask yourself, is that taking place outside and inside. There was mention of when they are released, how do they come out . By virtue of their prison release to they have to relocate . Not all of the factors are surrounding the individual. Have we equipped them . In the u. K. , many of the individuals released and a back and prison because they could not hope with what they faced outside yet they were told either the back into the community and familiarize theself, thats where radicalization was, or they move them to different environments and they could not adjust because they were in and alien environment. This is a framework i developed during my dhd and i adapted that from an altogether different field of research management. And organization in i took that and adapted that to test it withd everybody returning to islam. You see the founding stage. The founding stages a very new, developing stage for an individual. They are very susceptible. Lack knowledge. What they have is religious figure. Religious vigor. Their knowledge is garnered from abstract understanding. They have not experienced what they are learning. They then moved to the overzealous stage. The shoe bomber. You listen to their rhetoric and quarter, you will see overzealousness. Of theed understanding religion as the doctor mentioned early on. These particular areas are highly politicized when inmates are coming into prison. Do we even know what states there and when they come in . We know the stages . If we capture them and i dont mean literally chained them i mean there religious, mental state. If we are able to engage them at divine a stage of learning, then we are again, we go back to what we are learning. If there is a partnership, these discussions can come in and take time. Establish, determine where these humans are. We want to move them, like ourselves, to the safer stages, the mature stage, where reflection takes place, where actualization takes place. What is actualization . They are now practicing their religion and tenets of their faith from practice, from understanding, from experience. Not from abstract dvds, youtube, listening to a context that is altogether different because its coming from a different part of the world be it asia, the middle east or africa. Theyre able to contextualize. But we need to Work Together<\/a> institutionally to move them in that direction and not place them into categories that suit our system so we can tick the right boxes. The last figure that you saw, the last framework you saw was quite a basic, rudimentary framework. There are some converts here, i understand, who that resonates with. The more detailed one, the following here, was a sort of adaptation. And the reason i developed this is because you have an issue. Weve talked about susceptible, vulnerable inmates. Weve heard that from my two colleagues. What about extremist protagonists . And lets focus now, and you might say, well, why do we need to look at a framework for them . When i was studying, i did a case study of faisal, i couldnt fit him into the previous slide. I couldnt say he was at the founding stage. It was too the descriptors were too basic. I wouldnt say he was at the adult or mature phase either because of the nature of his propaganda. That doesnt mean the extremists do not reach that, but i couldnt fit him into that category, so i was thinking when i do sit with my brothers, theyre going to professors, theyre going to say your ph. D. s incomplete, you need to come to a conclusion. So i searched and searched. I was able to develop what you see at the bottom there with regards to abstract understandings to actualizing. And i was then able to place individuals like faisal at the youthful phase. Why . Because he was providing information which he had not fully embraced himself. He provided information, and he was disseminating it with his own understanding and misinterpretation of the religion. He has an element of actualization, however, because he went and studied in a muslim country. But his actualization was distorted. And i talk about the propagators as well as they enter the institutions. Why . And i will give you we said we were going to spice it up a little bit, and ill give you an example. An individual was in prison in the u. K. , and they placed him beside one of these propagators of extremism while he was in there. Upon just before that individual was to be released, i was abroad, and i received a phone call from the police. I thought, what are they doing ringing me here . They told me we have got intelligence that this individual is going to be released very shortly, and he has been discussing the assassination of two individuals when he leaves. One is an imam and the other is somebody else who was at the other end of the telephone call. When i got that phone call, i was surprised, and i wonderedded how that could have taken wonderedded how that could have taken place and with them knowing how they had an ability to know this individual was going to be released and coming into the community then knowing the level of the threat. They couldnt and wouldnt do anything about it. They just didnt have the mechanism if any be help was needed, such and such would happen. Colleagues put in mechanisms of support around the imam, and when the individual came out because some of them knew him, they engaged with him. I want to move to a different stage now to show you about what is required when engaging with extremists and their followers and their foot soldiers. And there are very few communities that show the wherewithal or bravery im not saying im brave, but courage to deal with this. What did we do . We let the individual come back into our community. The individual took part in my program, the street program. I deliberately engaged with this individual and spent time with him. Privately. Obviously, aware of what had come to me from intelligence. And this is another thing id say to partners, your intelligence has to be accurate. It has to be accurate. Because if we respond to what is given to us in every instance, we can perpetuate, we can exacerbate the problem. So as a Muslim Community<\/a>, we relied upon our own intelligence among our colleagues, those who were still in prison, those who were out of prison who gave some feedback which enabled that engagement to take place. Another individual came to this individual later on, and i got him working voluntarily in my organization. And he told him, do you know this information had come to us, and do you know that we had such and such and such . The individual contacted me on phone in tears. He said i will never harm you. I will never harm you. Had that been the intention from the beginning, allah knows best. But due to the engagement, the motto of my organization is for you from people like you. If we fit individuals into these boxes and these categories, muslims or nonmuslims, we give them no room for development. We stereotype them. Weve seen this happen with black communities, minority communities. Not just here, in the u. K. And elsewhere. When we put hem into neat little boxes because we can deal with those boxes, theres no room for progress for those individuals. And many of hose individuals will say of those individuals will say, well, be this is the category youre putting me in, ill act the fool and play that part. And theyll do that very well. So understanding these stages of development is essential for institutions at an institutional level are in order to address some of the issues that ive addressed and what youve heard here from my colleagues. And ill conclude this. Theres a description of those levels that are there, and youve got time to read them, please do take time to have a look at them on how the most rudimentary understanding needs to progress to a level of wisdom where individuality, where responsibility, as joe has mentioned, is taken on by the individual. They take responsibility for their own actions. They process things from a process of knowledge if they have access to that knowledge. They process it within an environment where theyre entitled or provided with the amenities, with the utensils to do that very thing. So we dont move them. We talk about group think, and is we know thats a problem. Cultism, we know thats a problem. But if were reinforcing it because were not enabling them to act as individuals, to process things themself and ill conclude on this point which is very, very key which will go into the next topic because someone finds a sense of religiousity, many go into prison and become more practicing of whatever faith it is. The man might start growing his beard. He might start praying five times a day. But we start becoming worried as intelligence or security operators saying this vims moving towards extremism individuals moving towards extremism. Weve got to differentiate between ideological extremism and behavioral extremism. Behavioral extremism is subjective. In saudi arabia, its not seen as extreme. Its subjective. We cannot determine extremism based on outward appearance and particular modes of behavior. However, if we establish there is an ideological line of extremism, ive mentioned earlier on guided an aspect of unification of allahs names in worship, they divided that into a fourth category. The muslim world has divided it into three. They made a fourth category and politicized it. [speaking in native tongue] when we hear individuals espousing that because thats talking about governments now, the governments in the middle east need to be overthrown. Then, for them, it was the near enemy. Alqaeda then changed it to say we need to go to the far enemy, the west. We hear these types of beliefs, if we hear these types of beliefs being espoused that we can rob sill in the name of islam and kill nonmuslims, then you know that is ideological extremism. And aspects of the behavior are analogous to that. But behavior by itself . Institutions need to be very careful when they see an increase in religiousity, and they take that as indications and symbolism of extremism. This is very dangerous. And this tends to be happening in the prisons. Im not sure if its happening in the u. S. Prisons. But we need to differentiate between those two, and ill conclude on that point. Thank you. Thank you. [applause] thank you. Q a. Ooh, we got some wonderful the only issue, joe, is reading them. [laughter] they write like you. I specialize in manuscript reading. You might have to do this. Often penal systems jails are described as Networking Opportunities<\/a> for people of likeminded ideology to make corrections. How true is this . And how to prevent it . If true . I say again please. Often penal systems jails are described as Networking Opportunities<\/a> for people of likeminded ideology. To make connections. In other words, people of like mind network, i think thats what theyre trying to ask. Is that that correct . Thank you. Who wants it . Ill start. So i dont get anyone deferring to me like my brother here i defer to you. [laughter] no, thats okay. I would talk from two examples. When we look at how how daish, isis, formed and the prison that they were held in, weve seen emerging evidence that people of likeminded individuals came together, and that was a finishing school where isis emerged. Weve got evidence of individuals exchanging numbers and writing the numbers and stitching them on the inside of their underwear and making sure that when they went out to their various regions of iraq, that they would be in contact with each other. So theres evidence that points to what the gentlemans saying. In the u. K. , they had an issue with a gravitation of individuals towards the extremests. And no matter where they moved them to, they saw there was this gravitation towards them. Hence, most recently theyre talking about having a prison within a prison where these extremist idealogues are going to be completely isolated. Is that the intent . Obviously, its the institutions that determine where these prisoners and these inmates are going to be moved to. Again, its understanding what weve been discussing here that can prevent likeminded individuals coming together of extremist nature to set up the platform that theyve done. Ive already mentioned the microcosm of communities from the macro element thats there. Thats not necessarily wrong in itself. But if its from an extremist element, we need to be very, very careful we avoid that. Not only avoid that, some may say we immediate to put the extremist mock the wide among the Wider Community<\/a> to make sure he or she doesnt inculcate the vulnerable instances as well. This is an institutional thing. They cant be done i cant say, brother ingram, im going to this jail, ill see you there. I cant do that. We are not moved we do not determine where we are being relocated. So institutionally, we need to have these mechanisms in place to insure likeminded of extremist rhetoric and imposition, disposition, sorry, are not aligned beside each other. Okay. Anyone else want a stab at it . C sure. Yes. I would just like to add one, maybe two points. I do believe i understand the connotation of the question. All that being said, i believe of that we should add a qualifier. So the connotation of the question is speaking about group think as though it has a negative connotation. Group think as an independent entity is not necessarily negative. All of us are here today because we have some similar line of thought in rectifying extremist ideologies. Is that a negative thing . No. So just to highlight that we need to qualify that. The second thing that i would say is these peoples who are engaging in this form of extremist behavior or radicalizedded islam if we want to utilize that particular argot, it is ideological in its base. So because of that in order to solve it, not denying that there are socioeconomical, political factors that may bring about this particular, these particular actions, but at its basis ideological. So if we accept that at its base its an ideological challenge, then we need people that can approach it at its base in the ideological arena. And by default, the best people that would be qualified to do so would be muslims who are properly trained in the faith and in the orthodoxy of the faith and in the tradition of the faith in order to, in order to approach this properly. So in answering the question, again, it should be approached ideologically from people that are qualified to engage it. Okay. I think the only thing that id add, if i may sure. Is recalling what you mention about policy. Yes, its true that, i mean, even without speaking about issues of radicalization or extremism or ideology, even for things as simple as petty theft and crime the adage has always been that people will go to prison, go to jail to learn and will come out knowing more than they had beforehand. And weve now talked about symptoms about what, you know, what goes on after theyve gone in. The elephant in the room is that were actually spending more in the United States<\/a> on prisons than we are on education. And we have put more into the schooltoprison pipeline than we have to the schoolto college pipeline. And until we solve that problem, we will not solve the problems of ideological crimes or behavioral crimes unless we actually invest in all tomorrow forms of education, starting at very, very young ages. Okay. Excellent point. Here we go. There has been backlash in Montgomery County<\/a> against cve. How is your Program Different<\/a> . Is there a particular program youre yeah. We have the [inaudible] i mean here. Anyone up here. How is their Program Different<\/a> . Are you focusing on one of their programs . Yeah [inaudible] prince georges. Oh, the tam program . Cve is combating violent extremism right. A governmentfunded program that, you know, has, that people get funding from. Right. I think that probably you both will be able to speak to that a little bit more about the differences between the programs. Personally [inaudible] well, me myself before answering that question, show less text 01 05 52 Abdul Haqq Baker<\/a> Abdul Haqq Baker<\/a> i would definitely want to be more aware of the particulars or the nuances of cve to do a proper crossreference. I dont know the project that youve done coming from the u. K. Myself, but i would say one of the reasons why im very pleased to be part of the tam program, the initiative is that incorporated the best elements and build upon them regarding deradicalization, counterradicalization with the most qualified. And one of the elements that is missing from many cve and we call them counterradicalization programs in the u. K. Is that ability to effectively engage head on with the issue of radicalization and violent extremism, the inability to identify at the right time when radicalization is taking place or the threat or the risk of radicalization, and then having the competent people on the ground operationally and those strategically with insight to address and target that radicalization. But in a way that enables that individual to come back and inclusively to his or her environment. And myself being in the community now for 27some years, you know, i have never seen those people who are so adamant about about rephrasing political grievances in religious language actually being that invested in their religion. There is a marvel comic book that is actually written by one of the writers for the marvel comic book is a muslim. Her name is willa wilson. And shes a writer for miss marvel. About a young girl miss marvel is a character that passes those that are worthy. And shes worthy of being miss marvel and is a super hero. Theres a panel in that willa is doing phenomenal work on this comic book. The theres a panel where theres an actual conversation with an individual who, you know, overtly looks religious, hes wearing a religious scarf, has a beard and hes questioned and he says, you know, youre questioning me because i have my i have my beard and im going to pray and everyone that has been caught for doing, you know, terrorist acts have been the guys going to strip clubs and hanging out at bars and had had girlfriends, right . So theyre not invested. The people that are invested in extremism are people that are not involved in you know, they dont want to be seen in overt methods of r religion so thats one of the problems with some of the manuals show less text 01 09 53 Walter Ridley<\/a> Walter Ridley<\/a> out there and theyve focused too much instead of consulting with people with the ideological issues and can solve those from the ground up. What is the greatest role of an individual in prison, inversion, conversion, radicalization, networking, mobilization, the u. S. And u. K. Perspectives . I say again, what is the greatest role of an individual in prison . Is it reversion, conversion, radicalization, networking, mobilization and the person with like perspectives from the u. S. And the u. K. . Im going to have to leave this to you two. I always joke and say you have converts to islam, show less converts to islam, and listen in the 90s and become emotionalment you can comment on the u. K. And u. S. Situation a bit more than i can. Before we were all in america, kind of came from britain first, right . Okay. The question, the premise of the question is assuming that an individual is entering from a particular Vantage Point<\/a> or a disadvantage. We have to look to the one reverting or converting to islam. Conversion rate is quite high, but i think when you look at the psychological trauma to enters a prison for the first time faces, he or she is going to have a lot of reflection about their life and, depending on that, change the direction, immediately to the spiritual perspective, research, i believe, is there. That talks to that. And my colleague and the article that we wrote discusses that. So, if its from the premise, the individual wants to account atone for what theyve done or feel they need to make a change of direction in their life, then reversion or conversion, whichever phrase is preferred, is the road that they will take. Assuming that or that the individual is then already a muslim and depending on crime theyve got convicted of. Is it like the criminal justice kept like bank robbery or Something Like<\/a> this . Is it for extremist defenses, if the premise of the question is so wide you cant hold it in that respect, to many dynamics. Now, lets jump to the other scenario, if its someone. Extremist, protagonist ilk, their role, as we have seen is to proselytize and convert others to their accord and they wont move away from that. That weve seen evidence of. So, when we see that particular type of individual, there needs to be a lot of checks and balances around that individual and the access they have to others, including nonmuslims. That doesnt mean i know here, for example, youve got richard, the secretary, and theyre in solitary confinement. I cant speak to that, and not endorsing this, my ph is academic, im not a doctor of psychology, i cant talk about that. In the u. K. Perspective they seem to be following suit by wanting to build these prisons within prisons. Again, you need to speak to speak to experts this that field as to likely consequences and effects on such individuals to the noose has effectively tightened around once they entered into prison. Youve seen me talk about different scenarios because the question is quite wide and we need to know the premise upon which someone enters into the institutions. Okay. This is for you, joe. You mentioned that middle aged white men are most prone to terrorism. What do you mean . Good question. So, homegrown terrorism and radicalization and this is actually going back to the issue of cves. One of the problems with cve programs is its primarily focused on the Muslim Community<\/a> and has not focused on other home grown terrorist groups that have carried out terror attacks on americans of all different ideologies, sexual orientations, religions, backgrounds, and unfortunately, its something for the most part swept under the rug. Its always assumed to be a lone wolf issue. Its always assumed to be something which is due to their upbringing. He was such a bright child, you know, we dont know where he went wrong. Its almost never attributed to their religion, their political orientation, their own radicalization on line from right wing or left wing groups, that pull them in to a false rancid ideology and there are several studies about this. The Triangle Group<\/a> of unc and duke, they have a few studies that identify white males as being susceptible to radicalization and the fbi has a few reports as well. There is the center for terrorism study at west point that made this point as well. And i think its undue, especially in light of the fact that we are only days away from the fact of an office in minnesota of an imam being fire bombed. Were hearing nothing about it. Although the governor of minnesota has come out, to the shock and guffaw of the media and said this is an act of terror. We have sikhs murdered in their temple. This was hardly, you know, mentioned in line with domestic terror. It was always looked at as crime. So, why do we afford the you know, we always have choice adjectives for those that we dont like, right . And if were going to be people that believe in American Values<\/a> of fairness and justice, of equity, then we should be we should be Holding Everyone<\/a> to the same standards. So the studies are there, you can look them up, and quite frankly, the reality is there. The question is, when will the, you know, when will the public vernacular change to actually address the issue because quite frankly, it can be frightening. Especially for the more vulnerable in society, that are afraid that somebody can get on the to get on an airplane and use all types of curse words, and call them, you know, malign their political affiliations without knowing them and threatening them and not be thrown off the plane. Whereas someone who is africanamerican or someone who is visibly muslim thrown off from the plane because somebody is afraid of them. How a latino prefer be thrown off the plane doing advanced math in a foreign language, right . So until we deal with that show so until we deal with that reality, were going to deal with a lot of tension in the United States<\/a>, and until were honest with ourselves about the problem that this is a human condition, this is not particular to a faith and or a race, its a human conditions. Well still be reinventing the wheel every time. Thank you. For academy of time weve got about about 14 minutes left. We cede our time. [laughter] 14 minutes. Could illiteracy have an effect on the vulnerability of inmates . Whoever answers, kind of script it a little bit. Sure, sure, and at least in opening on that answer, i would offer again, and being undereducated or lacking education is a common motif throughout the prison system in the u. S. I dont know if its similar in the u. K. But, i mean, quite obviously, when a person is literate, then it is more likely that they will be able to educate themselves and really, this entire discussion that were having is about either well, its about miseducation, right . This entire discussion, miseducation, right . Thats right. On different sides, right . So absolutely, yes. So if they are properly educated, concerning extremism, then that would have a profound effect in decreasing the likelihood of extremism in the prison system. This is my particular view. May i add . Please. I think that we have to focus on the type of literacy as well. Because very often, its only those that those susceptible to mad radical extremism are those poorly educated in the sciences and that does not hold water. Many people who have been involved in terror attacks have been highly educated, engineers, doctors. I think that the problem is not one of secular education, but one of religious education. Theres a certain level of frustration with pro providence, if i may, frustration with gods will. Im smart, i have all of these qualifications and im unable to self they dont understand how as a believer youre supposed to swim through the providence of god and navigate life understanding that god has a purpose for all things. So that religious illiteracy creates the frustration that brings about radicalization. We need not only focus on those poorly educated in their formative years, but poorly educated in their religious beliefs as well. This one is for me. Welcome. Thank you. Peter king, republican new york claims that islamic radicalism in prison poses a Homeland Security<\/a> threat. Do you agree . Why or why not . I would answer like this, domestic terrorism is a real problem that goes unnoticed, okay . And theres no Empirical Data<\/a> that says that islamic radicalism radicalism in prison poses a Homeland Security<\/a> threat. You ask why. One is we dont know. And i dont think so. Second, why not . Because of the if you look at those who are incarcerated, as i said in my opening statement, theyre the most disciplined, organized, focused focused religious groups in our prisons and jails. And unless, as the panelists have explained, unless you get to them and steer them your direction, and we dont know that, i mean, i dont know of any incidences. Maybe they do, of radicalization coming out of prison. I dont. I do know there are other groups that are domestic terrorists who come out of prison. Okay . The aryan brotherhood, ap i can just go on and on and on. Now, thats a different picture thats rarely, if ever, ever, on the news. Media electronic, media printed, are coming from the hill over there, okay . And thats where the real problem is. Not islam. Not these other groups. Who do you think planted the bomb bomb . I dont know, i havent seen the report. I know, i know, i know. [laughter] i dont want to speak ill speak it. Yeah. Its one of them. If anyone is knowledgeable or aware, can you address the story of imam jameel alamine, aka, brown, with respect to the subject of this panel . Now, theres a caveat here if anyone is knowledgeable. I am not although im familiar with who he is. Im definitely familiar, not as deeply as knowledgeable as what i believe the intent of the question to be. Right. To provide a proper answer. Okay. Doctor . Being from the u. K. , mythical so i dont think i can comment on that at this point. I know, you dont go there. Now, this is a deep one. Ooh, how does the Justice Department<\/a> respond to or addresses complaints of entrapment of muslims in terror not sure plots . And what . And what progress has the Muslim Community<\/a> done to address this issue . How does the Justice Department<\/a> respond to or joe. To or rather addresses complaints. Is that what that is . Yeah. Or rather addresses complaints of entrapment of muslims in terror plots, and what progress has the Muslim Community<\/a> done to address this issue . I cannot i cannot speak to the Justice Department<\/a>. I dont know how their response has been. But i know in the Muslim Community<\/a> there has been a focus amongst orators that have focused on muslim youth and telling them that you should be mature enough and knowledgeable enough of your own faith to not be to not many a tool for anyone, whether that be a radical extremist or that be someone trying to entrap you to then pin you as a radical extremist. We cannot, you know, be foolish enough to fall into a trap or to be pushed into one. And so, i know that thats actually happening in american mosques and amongst Muslim American<\/a> youth groups that leaders are saying, you need to avoid radical extremist ideology and not allow yourself to become manipulated by those who have numbers that theyre trying to rack up for arrests and other things. Okay. This one, what effort is in place between the Muslim Community<\/a> and Law Enforcement<\/a> to implement an Intervention Program<\/a> where there is affirmed intelligence from Law Enforcement<\/a>, that an individual is attempting a terrorist activity directly or in a supportive role . I say again, what effort is in place between the Muslim Community<\/a> and Law Enforcement<\/a> to implement an Intervention Program<\/a> when there is affirmed intelligence from Law Enforcement<\/a> that an individual is attempting to terrorist activity directly or in a supportive role. They really want to know, okay, what efforts. I can speak to texas and to florida, those are two states that i have lived and i have family in and im familiar with the communities there. And i know that for the joint Terrorism Task<\/a> force for the fbi offices and officers that are in the areas, as well as local police departments, there have been a lot of cooperation between leaders of the muslim communities and Law Enforcement<\/a> that when there is actionable intelligence, were not talking about, you know, someone, you know, calling the fbi and their friend because theyre beating them at world of warcraft or some online game, right . Were talking about, im afraid for my son, hes talking about travelling overseas, you know, you need to do something. The fbi has called leaders of the muslim communities in texas, in several different communities and said, can you go with us and intercept this kid . Can you go and talk to him . And they have been successful in many instances of turning those youth away, in focusing on, you know, in the community. And i can say that that has happened in those two places, for the better of that young person to get them help for the betterment of the community as a whole and for the betterment of Society Saving<\/a> them from any trouble that may be caused from Something Like<\/a> that. Okay. Ive got the this, anybody else . I was going to offer brief thoughts. Please. Both of them pertaining to washington d. C. Firstly, it brings to mind our brother, muslim, heal him and grant him strength as we heard earlier undergoing with cancer and such. He has established a pretty Good Relationship<\/a> with the washington , d. C. Police department and they have fluid communication between them and theyve worked together. Id be able to go back to 2010 and prior to that, i had a five year tenure in the washington, d. C. Area and they would actually engage the different mosques and establish communications and during my tenure we would go out even before. They had what they called d. C. Night out. D. C. National night out and things of this nature and we would engage one another. He does very, very well with that. And he has the discussions and things that are relative, he does convey on a personal note. Also, during my tenure, there was an individual of interest at the time with the fbi. And they be sure to stop by and we engaged one another and that particular problem, i believe they were able to solve it. So, theres a level of engagement within the local communities and Law Enforcement<\/a>. Okay. Ive got one minute to wrap this up. And ill do it like this. The panel talked about education, education, education. How do we do that . Weve become ambassadors, spreading the word about true islam throughout the faith based community, throughout the business community, everywhere talking to latidatty. And everyone else. We have to put people out there who carry our water and if they dont theyve got to go home, just that simple. Then we ask the question, i know ill get in trouble for saying this. Who are the real terrorists . Okay. And i leave you with that. [laughter] thank you all, very much. [applause] thank you all my brothers, and thank you most of all. Okay. All praises due for allah, and [captioning performed he","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia800804.us.archive.org\/30\/items\/CSPAN_20170813_061200_Countering_Violent_Extremism_Part_2\/CSPAN_20170813_061200_Countering_Violent_Extremism_Part_2.thumbs\/CSPAN_20170813_061200_Countering_Violent_Extremism_Part_2_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240628T12:35:10+00:00"}