Privacy, one of the questions is the impact dobson might have on data privacy. We have with us a stellar panel of experts with diverse points of view on this topic. Thank you for being with us today. In the interest of time, i will keep our buyers brief but please find out more about them at right project. Org. The law firm of neto and johnson in d. C. His law firm covers , cybersecurity data protection, Homeland Security and regulation. From 2005 to 2009, he was the First Assistant secretary for policy at the department of Homeland Security, and general counsel of commission that examined weapons of mass disruption prior to the iraq war. He also posts the weekly podcast, the cyber law podcast. The department of Homeland Security. Mr. Baker is part of a National Security agencies and investigative weapons of mass destruction prior to the iraq war. In other Technology Issues he also has weekly podcast the cyber law podcast. Jean bauer is the rosenstiel distinguished professor of law at the university of arizona. James the Rogers College of law. She teaches and studies the fundamental problems that are well intended technology policies. Her Research Assesses the social cost and benefits of data and how new Information Technology is a fact of free speech, privacy, and competitive components. She serves as a codeputy director of the quantitative networks. Where she facilitates research on economic relic regulatory policy on her work has been featured in 20 scholar publications including the michigan log review and many others. She holds a bs in mathematics from yale and a ged from yell law school. Danielle is the distinguished professor in law and the caddell a chapman of law at the university of Virginia School of law. She teaches about privacy, for he asked russian, civil rights, and she serves as the inaugural director of the School Center which focuses on pressing to questions on technology. She focuses on civil rights initiatives. Her latest book privacy protecting identity and love in the current age will be out in october 2022. Her first crimes in cyberspace in was wildly praised in public reviews. She has essays including the yale law journal and many others for the past decade she has worked with lawmakers and Law Enforcement and Tech Companies to combat online abuse of tech intimate privacy. Our moderator today will be paul rosens pretty. He is a writer and speaker with a National Reputation in bible in cybersecurity and Homeland Security. He is part of the homeland Consulting Company that Homeland SecurityConsulting Company. He is our professed oriole and law at George University and a senior fellow in the tech program at American University of college of law. He is a member of the Cybersecurity Task force in the United States court of appeals in the district of columbia circuit. Advisory committee on admissions and grievances. He is a graduate of the university of law school and cyber warfare of how conflicts and cyberspace are challenging america and changing the world. After discussion between our Panel Experts if time allows, we will go to audience q and a. Please enter any questions that we have into the q and a function in the bottom of your window. Note, as always the Federalist Society and regulatory transparency project take note this could do take no position on legal or policy matters those topics shared are the opinions of those joining us. Paul you may start. Think you for that introduction. Of our topic and our guest. Im delighted to welcome everybody to this webinar discussion. The dogs decision in june was the do wasb an earthquake decision and it will havebs law of abortion. One of the most surprising at least to me, aspects of that that i would not have anticipated prior to its coming to court is hal dobbs is or may affect Online Privacy issues. To cite just one example, of where it was recently reported, in a case, out of nebraska where the Nebraska Police are investigating people for allegedly assisting and illegal abortion. They have salt from facebook the private messages of that individual. Implicating that both obviously the abortion issue itself, directly, but also for our purposes today, the question of then and how data privacy issues will intersect with the abortion right. I am sure, that everybody on the call, everybody listening and understands that data privacy is a broad and floppy subject ranging from messaging to geolocation to other aspects of our digital selves. And i hope that in this coming 45 minutes or an hour we will be able to explore all of how that bit of water reality intersects with this new understanding of personal privacy that arises in the coast dobbs world. So to begin, let me start by asking jane to introduce us to the topic. And to examine and expound upon the scope of the problem. How it connects to dobbs, and maybe use the case in nebraska as a jumping point and tell us more about it. And in the end, us all on the panel and those listening in the audience a reason why we are here and why this surprising turn of events has taken at least the data privacy world by storm. Jane . Youre right. There are Opinion Pieces and news items as well that have been quite persistent since the original dobbs opinion was leaked. So theres been a lot of focus on whether the data that was collected for some other Companies Might be repurposed in order to enforce the new abortion laws and criminal laws that may be coming down the pipes. So, i want to talk about the nebraska case and a little bit but let me start with data sources that are more likely to be animating the anxiety here. So this would include location data, that everyones cell phone provider collects. And also that many apps collect like gps app and whatnot. And things like Google Search data that wind up having search terms that are going to be going to indicate what a person was thinking about or researching. And theres a lot of report on period apps that specific apps that collect information about a womans minstrel cycle to the extent of those apps wind up sending the data off the device into a cloud in then there are concerns with general Data Security and also concerns about how the data might be used in combination with other types of data in order to determine that a woman in a particular state where abortion is illegal missed a. Mr. Period and then may have become pregnant and then later had a location data that suggest a slot out and abortion. So, all these types of data sources are useful for many criminal detections. And cases and what is happening for well over a decade now. But i would say, is also true that some crimes are more amenable to being detected in tract within this highly technological way than others. So seeking an abortion given the inevitable type of location changing nature of that service where a woman has to go someplace that might eventually be identified as a place where illegal abortions have been provided and stays there a while , that may have a particular data fingerprint that other crimes do not have. So it may be more likely that these types of crimes, if they become crimes, make use of this data for prosecution. And i should say that most of this data, of all noncontent data including location data, at least might be available to Law Enforcement using a subpoena. Or a warrant. The decision announced by the u. S. Supreme court changes that somewhat and puts some of that in question which we can talk about later. In response, for a setting, some Companies Including google have taken action. Google has promised it will delete data automatically delete data that is related to Location Tracking if a person visits a medical clinic. I am not sure that does not hold law in states within states for illegal abortions if the services are not taking place in the clinic. In any case, i think it is a gesture or more than a gesture, to try to remove the data from the temptation of Law Enforcement access. And another question that the data privacy Debate Alliance in my opinion is whether there is really an appetite for criminalizing and prosecuting women, in particular, for seeking an abortion. I would have said, maybe four years ago, even if roe was overturned there is simply not a viable political will to go after and prosecute women and abortion providers but i think that has changed. The nebraska case suggests theres been a shift. In fact, on the campaign trail when donald trump was running for president , he made a, at the time, a gaffe where he said why would we not prosecute women . And everyone understood that even the most prolife and politically active supporters of abortion bands did bans did not want to pay place that on women but i think the issue has shifted. So with criminal law whether that will emerge within states we dont know if they will criminalize laws within their own state and instead, one state is considering criminalizing crossing state borders in order to seek an abortion where it is legal in that jurisdiction. And so that raises not only data privacy questions, but interesting criminal law questions as well whether that is the type of behavior that should be in the view of terminal sanctions. So, finally, i am not sure that nebraska answers these questions they are kind of important and prerequisites for understanding the risk of data privacy violations. And that is whether states are likely to enact laws and enforce laws that most of us would find repugnant and contrary to what the criminal system should be used for. So i do not think that case is not a great case to hold out for fair hungering because it involves a mother guiding a 17yearold to abort her 23 week old fetus and so that, i think reasonable minds run a full gamut into forms terms of the morality of an abortion and where the interest for potential life starts to equal or surpass interest in of bodily and Economic Freedom of the mother. But i think we understand, many people think at some point, that happens and 23 weeks is a pretty long time. So if you seek an abortion in most countries in europe that would be illegal. So i am interested in whether we are likely to see prosecutions of this sort that would make use of this data. And if so, how carefully to define data privacy precautions that we might take. Mr. Baker that is a great introduction. Do either of you have scenarios that you think should be in the pot for consideration as potential avenues for data usage in criminal prosecution for abortions. Stewart . I think the pot is overfull with use cases already so i have no more to add. Danielle . And you mean, nash i will give an example. Dumps near Abortion Clinics as a potential way tower dumps are pulling location data from a cell phone tower near a location and it will be used, for example, in a bank robbery possibly. And one could imagine, the potential. Any others, i am trying to set the stage for before we talk about what we think about this. Right. I think it is important to recognize that Law Enforcement state federal and local have contracts with data risks. An location data brokers in particular but data brokers that have 3000 data point on each and everyone of us including whether we terminated pregnancies. The microscopic level of dita data. They have a contract on going right now. So the idea that we are, in all cases, going to have interesting Fourth Amendment questions, due to the for thirdparty doctrine, and i hope that some of these come back in we start rethinking in terms of geolocation how we address that. The reservoirs of information are overflowing and easily assessable to Law Enforcement. [no audio] mr. Rosenzweig did we just lose danielle . I believe so and she is frozen here as well. Mr. Rosenzweig well those are the big reason that zoom discussions so, hopefully we will get her back and perhaps one of the people like can reach out to her. Oh danielle. High. Sorry about that. Hi, sorry about that. I am at the law school i thought this would be the best place for this to be stable. Mr. Rosenzweig will let me go to a different subject and then come back to you danielle. If i was to characterize levels of concern, my prepanel understanding is that your levels of concern are significantly higher than janes and certainly higher than stewarts. We will come to you next, stuart. Put salt on the table. Tell us about why you are concerned with the issues that have been raised in your book which i hope to get a copy of when it comes out. And, tell us why you think this intersection is troubling. My work focuses on intimate privacy which is the privacy around and access to information about our bodies and health. Our closest relationships, our sexuality, sexual orientation, sexual activities, and innermost lots. Which we document with our Google Searches and all of our communication. By my lights, it is a foundational privacy value that deserves special protection. Because it is intimate privacy it is the precondition for human humans flourishing it enables us to figure out who we are and that is with people, it is not to say it is alone we are experimenting with trusted others. It enables us to enjoy a and social respect so that we are seen as full people rather than just our the dinosaur the highlight high likelihood of developing type two diabetes. We can be seen as holy integrated people. And charles explained it best. It is the precondition and oxygen for selflove. We reveal things to and love in general. We have vulnerability that allows because in so many ways, individuals, governments, and we are collecting hands over fists of information about our lives and under protecting it in ways that i think have long stream downstream effects that we cannot wrap our heads around that has to deal with discrimination and ranking people for jobs that you dont get an insurance premiums that go out that you do not realize and this is especially true for women and minorities. To go back to jeans discussion about your skepticism about the political will, i will drop from michelles book on policing the blackbody and weve seen over 400 prosecutions of black women and girls during pregnancies were either having taken drugs for during pregnancy or using Fetal Homicide Laws which is not meant for that it is usually meant for when somebody kills the mother and baby. And so we may see the most vulnerable prosecutions that may not affect the more privilege for us. But i think we will see, unfortunately, i you worried, jean, about the political will even in my own state at the moment about the prosecutions we might see depending on the rollout of the state criminalization laws. So we see companies that are the data handmaidens of the government and individuals as well. So individuals, if you got angry at a lever and you tell Law Enforcement i think my ex had an abortion here where she sent me i have spyware on her phone and this is exactly what she is doing, and that opens door to the surveillance of intimate life that we can close. So we been working with folks in the american do it data Privacy Protection act that my body, my health, there are various integral innovations happening on that and we will see what happens but we need special protection for intimate information. It is so essential to figure out who we are that i hope that we see developments on health. And contraceptives. I hope that was helpful. Mr. Rosenzweig give me a little more specifics. You are obviously concerned about the rows of prosecution potentiality. That is kind of a political question that is not tied directly to the data issue. Let me ask you this one, are more data concerns about abortion are they unique to abortion for do you have the same concerns about intimacy privacy being defined. Whether it is transgender is him or marriage, sexual orientation, whatever. s right. Because i wrote my book totally. It is interesting you are so right, i cannot deck dictate what state legislatures are going to do in their judgment and assessment that it will be criminal law. With a warrant, you would think this is appropriate, and the Supreme Court said there is no constitutional right in the u. S. Constitution there is no right to privacy or that they recognized in the 14th amendment due process clause so i wrote my book i am working on [no audio] oh bummer. Mr. Rosenzweig it was going to be an interesting point might i am sure. Mrs. Citron and it concerns me. Or be back . Ok yeah i will go back. It helps srap our heads around why i care about intimate privacy. Individuals will deprive each other of intimate privacy and it is often been depriving women and girls of their intimate privacy and what i mean by that, there are 9500 sites right now, many of them posted in the u. S. , that talk intimate images of people without their consent. Photos intimate images or sexually explicit photos and it is not always an where of womans face is morphed into form. And when that is accompanied by your full name and your home address, it is not only devastating to you personally because you have such an incredible fear about who will approach you, it changes your sense of safety but it changes your Economic Opportunities teachers have lost their jobs because Google Search