The beginning, from 2006 when the National Archives hired me to do this, i was very straightforward about what i was going to do. So there is no debate in switching. The archives came to me. But it was a very interesting conflict of different events because the head of the Nixon Foundation at that point was john taylor, rev. John taylor. And john taylor is an intellectual. He is very complicated. He is a bit torn about nixon. And he admired nixons mind. And he wanted nixons library to be credible. Now, i dont believe that every member of the Nixon Foundation shared johns intellectual goal. He really wanted the cold war historian. He knew who i was because i had worked on the project with pda. I just let the materials speak for themselves. I write books, but on different subjects. John taylor wanted me, too. He was hired by thenpresident george w. Bush. My first book is about the cuban missile crisis. Both of them wanted me. They came to me. I did not apply for the job. From the beginning, i said, look, i am a historian. We have to have a place where history is so comfortable. I am not a member of the republican party. I am not partisan crowd i am now going to become a member of the republican party. And that is aside from the fact that i was gay. I told them come if you want this, this is what you will get. I was very straightforward. I spoke with Julie Nixon Eisenhower and tricia nixon carps. I told them, im going to create space where there will be a debate about your father, but i promise to be respectful and it will be intellectual and your father was an intellectual. And that is what i promised. The fact that the Foundation Later would make a big deal out of this was politics. Because they knew what theyre getting from the beginning. And it becomes politics i will tell you what happened. The foundation paid lip service. John was a complicated figure, but most of the members paid lip service. They thought that washington would bring me in. The work would reign me in. They assumed, regardless of my big talking or whatever i believe, that ultimately they would reign me in. Albert weinstein was very nervous about having a Nixon Library that would be viewed like a coverup. And john taylor says he wanted me just as much as alan one stop. Alan weinstock. They both came to me in 2006 and said, would you do this . Where were you then . I was in the university of virginia. I was doing some teaching. I had worked on the nixon tapes a little bit appeared mostly on the kennedy and johnson takes. I knew what nixon sat on the tapes. I recognize the problem with the federal government. How does the federal government paper over some one who makes racist and antisemitic comments on tape that can be played over and over again . The answers you dont paper it over. That means that the library cannot be a legacy factor. We can at least read the transcripts. This is the achievement of part of the nixon project. Before there was a library, there was a group of very dedicated archivists working for the National Archives. There was a legal professor who pushed hard for this period of the first opening was at the end of the 1990s. So theres a lot of very bad material that was available. Have all of that been transcribed . Know, that takes forever. Very little is transcribed. Even that is only about 15 of the abuse of power takes. Long story short, heres the problem for the federal government. We have a habit in this country coming if i may say this now, of glossing over president s. We have decided that they all have to be treated as if they are symbols of the country. What that means is that you have a smoothing over of the rough edges. And there is a feeling among modern president s the they have a right to a certain veneration and it will be located in that president ial library. And even if theyre gone, their children in some cases and former allies, other lieutenants who live longer than president s because theyre younger, they continue this. In fact, in many ways, they are even more ferocious to preserve this legacy, because the old man is gone and want to show their loyalty. This is difficult when you have a flawed president. You had some controversy over watergate. Yes. Have you been to the Clinton Library . I was going to ask you how they dealt with all the problems he had with impeachment and if they had been fair. I was told that he was really impressed with the watergate exhibit. I was told that would inspire him to do some to make some changes to the museum. One of the things that Allen Weinstein was hoping was that the Nixon Library to be a new start. Some of the libraries are much too much like shrines. This is public money. You dont get to take off on your tax return with your money goes to a Public Entity or a public library. It goes to every library. George w. Bushs library opened in the early part of 2013. How much of the building was paid for by the federal government . The building is pay full is before by his private foundation. The deal is that they build the building and they have to meet National Archives specifications, federal government specification. Only certain amount of feet . I would like to be a debate. I think americans up to decide what they want occurred but i dont think they know they have a choice. Right now, congress is reducing the amount of money that is going to these libraries. The result is that the libraries will be more and more like shrines did you ask the private ally of a president to cough up a lot of money, what do they want in return . Of course, they expect a certain slant. Not only will you build a building, but they will create an endowment to pay for them build in the building in perpetuity. So these buildings are more and more pay for with private funds. She billed the building. The federal government gets the keys, the handover the day they open the building. The the government is there, but the federal government is the pauper. It is an amazing thing. You have directors took no money. The money they have is to pay for salaries and it is delightful. But the Nixon Library started the family. The Nixon Library is the only one started this way. It started as a private facility. That was because of watergate. Gerald ford signed a law in 1974 called the president ial recording of materials preservation act. I was the only director whose work was governed by a single law. There are differing laws that govern the libraries that print only the nixon materials. By law, Richard Nixons materials could not leave 20 miles outside of the District Of Columbia because it was felt that Richard Nixon was not a trustworthy conservator of his material. So they couldnt have a library. By law, he couldnt have a live repaired and that is because Richard Nixon had cut a deal and Congress Found out about it. He cut a deal with one of his appointees who was the head of the gao. Im sorry, the gsa. It is the Government Services administration appeared at those in those days, they ran the National Archives. The deal was that Richard Nixon would have the tapes in five years and could destroy whatever he wanted. Whatever was not presented for truck, he could destroy and he could have his papers and destroy them appeared Richard Nixon cut this deal before he left the white house. Congress found out about it, went crazy and seized his materials. That meant that the nixon materials were like a crime scene. I am telling you, running the Nixon Library is one of the most phenomenal experiences one could have. Because what happened was nixon overplayed his hand and the government responded in a very tough way. So everything was scooped up, absolutely everything, including separate super 8s. Those were films back then. It was on government time. People used to take their super eight cameras, and videotaped their birthday parties, their kids birthday parties. And then they would use the white house labs to develop them. So they had these Birthday Party reels in their offices and they were all seized. Everything was seized, unless somebody destroyed something. The federal government, if they were not that heavy handed, they would give them back. My point simply is that nixes materials were handled differently. Now his family and his friends felt he deserved a place of reflection and ultimately a place where he and pat nixon were buried. So they opened a library with no papers. I described it to folks at the roger Nixon Library. Were his vicepresident ial papers there . There were not because he deeded them to the federal government. All he had were his pre president ial papers, not including the Vice President ial papers, and his post president ial papers i was not around at that time, but the family decided this isnt right. Our father wanted a library like every other president. And they Lobby Congress in the first bush term to change that law so that the materials could be sent to california. But the tradition was that they would have to be sent to a National Archive facility i was the director. I oversaw the move. And now john taylor, an episcopal priest, was running the Nixon Library before the federal government took over. Yes. And he desperately wanted an expert to have impaired my sense is that not everybody in the foundation wanted it to happen to have it. My sense is that not everyone in the foundation wanted it to happen. We didnt do it in person. We did it by letter. But Bruce Herschensohn who ran for senate in california was a nixon speechwriter. I think he was also a speechwriter for ronald reagan. He was also in the u. S. Ia, the United States information agency, and he wrote the screenplay for the memorial film about jfk, the man who fought a lot about american history. He disagreed with my approach from the get go. Well before the controversies of bringing in john d. He said every president has a right to a watering hole. There are all those who admires him who can go and speak and not have to worry about the judgment of history. I believe thats true if it is a private facility. But the minute you make it public, i think it cant be published cannot be governed by those rules. Again, i dont think the public recognizes that it has a choice. If you go to the different president ial libraries, youll find this among them are shrines and others are places of serious discussion. The harry truman, for example, is a place of serious discussion. The Johnson Library is redoing its museum. I havent seen it yet, but i suspect it will be a place for serious discussion. And there are others that are not. I think the public needs to figure out what they want. Your office is and what your office is in what relationship to the foundation . I chemical war historian. I had this discussion. When john taylor was encouraging me to take the job, i said, john, one of the conditions i have was that i would like to run all public programming in the building because i dont want to run berlin. I had steadied divided berlin. I dont want to do that. It would be terrible. But in the end, that is what we got, berlin. My office is one area. The foundation is looking very far from us. Relations get very tense and cool. As i said, the shutdown of funding for the library. Are they required to Fund Anything . I am not a lawyer, but let me put it this way. In the transfer agreement, one of their objectives is supposed to be assisting the library, but theres no set amount that theyre supposed to provide a will tell you, when i started, they promised a two hundred 50,000 a year for public programming. That never happened. It a very tense. One is when was it the most tense and why . It didnt take that long. A lot of the fights were actually over little things. They were supposed to setup assistance. When you are a federal museum, youre supposed to maintain certain levels of humidity and temperature control. With the had purchased for the museum was not good enough. They knew they were supposed to fix that. They wouldnt. They were using the deadline and they were trying to use that against us so that we would pay for it. And i did not want the American People to pay for something that they were supposed to pay for. So that was tense. I remember an argument because they turned to me and said, you are supposed to be on our side. Why are you on washingtons side . Because the taxpayer should not be paying for this. So we had fights over logistical issues. But the intellectual fight started when i invited Elizabeth Drew in 2007. She is a longtime journalist, observer of the nixon scene, wrote a small biography of Richard Nixon, a study of his presidency for the american presence series. She would not have been a supporter of his. But she is a serious person. I made it clear look, i have already overseen events with al haig, a number of events. The Nixon Foundation let me come even though i was not yet fully director, i moderated a lot of events. I worked with them on who we would invite good all i said is i want balance. Just give me balance. I would be happy to have people who revere Richard Nixon, but also have people raise questions. Otherwise, this is not a national facility. It is an extension of the white house. I invited Elizabeth Drew. At that point, they said, thats it. And they shut down funding. We had already set up a whole bunch of events for six months. We plan six months ahead. They stopped funding that. In terms of the role history project, there were a number people on the list and said, okay, we promised we would fund the interview with senator dole. Afterwards, no more. So the funding for the World History is stopped. It stopped when i invited Elizabeth Drew. They assumed that washington would still that washington would stop me. They felt that they could put pressure on washington. What they did not understand is that, by saving money so i can run this on my own if they tried to interfere. But before they became part of the padilla government, they could decide all of those things. Part of the federal government, they could decide all of those things. Of course. We give them six months Elizabeth Drew with june 2007. I was at the facility starting in october 2006. I was meeting with them all the time. I said over and over again, we have to have balance here. Please not pleased because it was my decision but i was preparing them for that. What would you want to put yourself through this . Why would you want to put yourself through this . I had just become a u. S. Citizen. I cared deeply about history. My dad died pretty young. When i became a u. S. Citizen, alan escorted my mom to the funeral. Are you from quebec . From west field. And i knew a lot about the fights over the knicks and materials. Over the nixon materials. There was supposed to be a watergate conference where the Nixon Foundation was supposed to be receiving things. Maybe it is just too much self confidence, but since both sides wanted me, i thought i had a unique opportunity and i care deeply about this. The oral [indiscernible] part of my job was overseeing the release of the white house tapes. So i thought i had a remarkable opportunity to do some good as an american citizen. So it was a great challenge. Let me say what they would say my guess i can put i cannot put words in their mouths. I have talked with some of them before. The would say we didnt want that nixonhating Liberals Canadian gays in here that they hired to run the show. This is the problem appeared they were convinced this is the problem. They were convinced that washington would either restrain your fire me. And washington would do it. Meeting Allen Weinstein. And his replacement, the acting director. We were supposed to do can you believe this . I managed to recapture even after Elizabeth Drew, a year later, we tried to do some we try to find some public programs, some exhibits we have a temporary exhibits gallery. You dont just have a permanent gallery. I thought what can i do with them . I believe that you find mutual interest. So i can look with some ideas. For example, lets do something on the moon landing. President nixon was president for all of the apollo moon landings. Isnt that a nonpartisan wonderful thing to do . 1969, 2009 lets do that together. I wanted to do and the Council Funding because they were so angry about john been. Explain that. John dean. Expo in that. I invited john dean to speak of the library about his books. I told the Nixon Foundation in advance. I said, im going to have john been here john dean here. I think it would be a good thing for us to work on this together. But they split on it. The acting executive director for the foundation, kathy oconnor, who worked recklessly with me and i got along very well with her in 2009, she said, i am understand why youre doing this. John taylor had already left on his blog and publicly supported when i was doing. He recognized that i meant what i said and i said what i meant and lead this that my agenda was what i said it was. And he supported me. But the foundation at that point was shifting and christening and they were very unhappy. Lemme let me read this to you. Ron walker called john dean a r