Learn from history. Whats your insight on barack obama because its four dinners with him . Hes a highly intelligent man. He is keenly interested in history and the way in which the president ial institution has evolved and what he could take away from past president ial performances to make his a more compelling and more successful administration. I wish we had, you know, some extraordinary answers to provide him but it costs the nature of history is that its an imper mect humanistic enterprise and he understood this. But we talked a Great Variety of things in those interviews or in those dinners as of course, there were roughly 12 historians. I wasnt the only one there. Principle aids including each time one of his principle speech writers. So to me it was a fascinating experience to be able to, at one point, sit right next to the president at dinner and have this kind of exchange with him. In many ways, it felt like an academic seminars because after all, you know, he is someone who has been a professor of law. And looked like being in a seminar with a bunch of colleagues was the way i would characterize it. Did you leave there writing yourself . To remind can you give us an example of something . When done with this which i think will well have more dinners with him and one of my colleagues at the dinners and i talked a little bit about writing a piece called dinners with obama. But i think it will be a very positive piece because he listens. He wasnt intent on giving us instruction or lobbying us for anything in particular, except that at the first dinner he wanted to note how president s achieved the transformative presidency. How did Franklin Roosevelt do it, woodrow wilson, how did Ronald Reagan with the reagan revolution . At the second dinner because this was 2010 he was slipping somewhat in the polls and did not have the continuing hold of the publics imagination. And of course thats not unusual. Once president s are there for a while their limitations of laws are going to be in evidenced. But we talked about how to reconnect to the public and i told him the anecdote about how after Franklin Roosevelt died, his body was being transported from georgia to hyde park where he was buried. Somebody said to them, did you know the president . And he said no, but he knew me. And i related that anecdote to the president. And he nodded. He understood that making that kind of connection to ordinary folks was essential for president ial success. At the third dinner it was in 2011 and we talked about the coming election. And he was a little more verbal at that point where us. And essentially he said he wasnt concerned about any of the republicans he was facing. In fact, he said this fellow romney has twisted himself into a pretzel which was an accurate assessment of his candidacy in 2012. And then he talked about the fact that his opponent in the election was the economy. Thats what he saw. The last time we had dinner with him was in january of 2013 and, almost a year ago, just a year ago now. And he was very upbeat. He had just won reelection. He talked about his state of the union message, his inaugural speech that he would be getting, inaugural addresses especially second terms. We talked a little bit about the issue, the second term curse which obviously given how many difficults hes struggled with during the course of 2013, one could say there he is again. Now, i dont believe in curses. I dont believe in jinxes or anything like that. And i think its just inevitable that president s in second terms are going to have more difficult time than at the start of a first term because president s come to office initially on a weave of enthusiasm, excitement. Even if theyve only won by the narrowest of margins, which is true, john kennedy won by a sliver and yet very quickly he gained the kind of popularity, kind of approval from the public. But by the start of the second term, people see the fact that a president doesnt walk on water. Hes not a miracle worker as some people like to think at the start of the president ial administration. Its more difficult for him especially if hes dealing with an Opposition Congress as this president has had to deal with. The title of this book you just wrote inside the Kennedy White house and you talk about the individuals there. There are still people that were talking about today Everybody Knows their name that follows history. I wonder if theres anybody near this administration who well be talking about 50 years from now . Thats an interesting question. I think valerie jarred after all shes been there throughout the five years and theres every reason to believe shes going to be there for another three years and so, i think some historians are going to want to get her papers into news with her if possible. She among all the insiders at the white house probably has been closer to president obama than any other advisor. So i think shes certainly one name that will register on historians. Heres a fellow you write in your book a lot. He was here for book notes. Lets watch it. John kennedy intended to write his own history of his presidency with my help. More than once he would refer to me he would say in talking to me, he would refer to that book were going to write. And i always said, the book youre going to write, mr. President , because i didnt have any intention of hanging around his life forever. When he was suddenly gone and could not write that book, i felt i had some obligation to do it. How did he fit into the Kennedy White house . Well, he was of course, the president s word smith. He was a brilliant speech writer. But he and kennedy had a kind of symbiotic relationship. I dont mean they were friends. I dont mean they socialize because sorensen said they didnt have that kind of relationship. But it was a kind of relationship and a kind of intuitive understanding of where this president wanted to go in this administration and what he wanted to say. And sorensen had the gift of being able to translate that into a language that is memorable, you see . Because after all that some of kennedys speeches are going to last but going to be remembered. What i fine so interesting, brian is with john kennedy a recent poll asked people to assess the last nine president s from kennedy to george w. Bush. Kennedy came out on top with 85 . Ring this recent memory of his assassination, the commemoration, 90 approval rating. The only one close to him was Ronald Reagan. And the question any historian has to ask why is this the case after all . He was there for seven days. It was the briefest presidency in American History. On the one hand people dont much like his successors. Obs with vietnam, nixon with watergate. Fords truncated presidency. Jimmy carters presidency which people say enlrble essentially a failure. The only one is reagan. Bill clinton . Bill clinton, yes, but he had the monica affair. The only president in the countrys history elected president to have been impeached see. Theres sort of a black mark against his record. Kennedy, of course, dying so young at the age of 46, its a blank slate on which you can write anything. And he was so young. And the country identifies with that. And they have a sense of loss over to this day, i think, over his assassination. But he gives people hope and so that they remember his words, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. His famous peace speech at American University in june of 1963 in which he said we need the soviet about union. He had come out of that cuban missile crisis. Nuclear war, so much on the horizon. They were both, i think frightened, terrified by that experience. And as a consequence, kennedy wanted to move towards some datomp with the soviet union. Thats how he got the treaty signed in 1963. Happened very quickly because they had been hassled over there for years. It was a spinoff, i think from that cuban missile crisis and the terror they faced over that. I think we would have seen the talk with the soviet union more quickly than it came about with richard nixon. You spend a lot of time talking about the individuals around him and people like mr. Sorensen and here was the view of Jackie Kennedy in march to june when they did these interviews with arthur sleshing ger. Heres what she said about mr. Sorensen. I know one thing about the legislative breakfast. Larry couldnt stand ted sorensen until one night he was telling me, you know, they were obviously jealous. He said so many times larry would prepare an agenda for the breakfast and just before they were about to start ted would ask to see it and take it and he would change one or two sentences and initial it t. C. F. And pass it all around that way. And youll see that heavy hand of ted sorensen in more places. I mean, you know, he wanted his imprint on so many things. Yeah. Told you about the profiles. He was doing that to everyone. Thats just so sneaky. He was a little more in the white house, was he . Oh, yes. That was such a petty thing. He loved himself and finally he loved jack. Nd he also had such a crash on crush on jack. I remember when he dared to call him jack. And he sort of glushed. And i think he wanted to be easier. The sort of civilized side of jack would be easy. He had a big inferiority complex. You can see the things working back and forth. I remember seeing him in the white house. She said he was in love with himself. Talked about profiles an courage. The only interest in himself. Is that fair . I think its an exaggeration. Theres no question that ted sorensen was the keeper of the plain. After i, my personal experience th him, after i revealed the kennedy medical records, he was the one who signed off there was threeman committee that controlled those medical records and two of the members signed off and sorensen was reluctant to do it. I went to see him in new york, met with him in his ressdemens his apartment and persuaded him to let me have access to the records. Well, he didnt know it was in there. And when the records came out, the New York Times wrote a front page story about my findings. The atlantic newspaper republiced published this story about miss medical records sorensen was angry. He said there was no coverup. Of course they did. Ey were hiding his medical problems. I dont think he would have been elected in 1960. He proved himself brilliantly. I sat his medical records alongside the cuban missile crisis and he didnt there were no concessions to his medical difficulties during that crisis. Now, was the medication helped him get through without stumbles. But anyway to get back to your int about sorensen, he was a somewhat prickly character. Very defensive about kennedy as if he were the keeper of the flame. I dont know why Jacqueline Kennedy was so critical of him. I think she was openly critical in the sense that sorensen was a true loyalist and he served kennedys needs and desires an h degree. The int he didnt make claims to have him publish profiles in colonel. Did he or did not write profiles in courage . There were other who is cribbed. My research told me because kennedy would listen to the tapes of the transcripts of the chapters and he would edit them. Now, it would be unfair to say that kennedy was the author the sole author of profiles in courage. He was vitally involved. So it was a combined effort so to speak. And i think mrs. Kennedy was a bit jealous of sorensen may be trying to take too much thunder and too much credit and but, you know, these are complex relationships that spring up in these white houses. By the way you write in page two, Health Problems including addison disease a possible malfunction of the adrenal gland, spastic colitis that triggered bouts of diarrhea and allergies. And ted kennedy found out about his brothers Health Problems from your book. Not all of them. He knew that his brother had a medical history and had Health Problems. But i dont think he knew the was xtent because he fully admiring about my book. He said things to me the best buy yog fi thats been done of kennedy. And what both of them concluded was that my description of kennedys Health Problems enhanced rather than undermine has public standing, his reputation in history because how he managed to rise above his Health Difficulties and be an effective president was a very impressive achievement. And so they were taken with that. But yes, ted did not know the full extent of his brothers Health Problems and its the measure of how much they hid it, how much joe kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, the president himself, jackie, they were the one who is knew. But it was largely hidden from the world. Heres another person who gives a lot of mention in your book, george ball. 66. I supposed i was tired and broke. I had been there too long. And it was a very exhausting job, believe me. Dean destroyed his health by staying there for the balance of the johnson term. No, i wanted to get out. I mean, it was it was not just vietnam. Although vietnam contributed because it wasnt that i wasnt etting anywhere in the process which is true. But i couldnt get the president and the people around me in any part of the world. Outspoken critic of vietnam. You said in your book that in the early books that he was backing basically what they wanted to do in vietnam in the early years. Can you explain that . Well, he was a loyalist. What did he do . He was on the secretary of state and he replaced Chester Bowles who kennedy didnt like having at all and was trying very hard to get rid of and sent him d to sort of on a mission around the world and made him an International Diplomat going all around the world. Well, he replaced him with george bowl because bowl was much more of a team player. Ball was candid with kennedy about vietnam in particular. And he told him at one point, mr. President , if you put two 300 Ground Troops into the jungles of vietnam youll never hear from them again. And he said youre crazy as hell. Of course, well never know exactly what kennedy would have done about vietnam. On the other hand when ball was sort of told to defend the Administration Speak for it, that was his job. You know, sort of like a vice president. You dont go out on the hustings and give speeches that are in contradiction with what the president is saying and so he pretty much defended. But behind the scenes he was candid with kennedy and was one of those who was a very early critic along with gallon breath and george canon. They want kennedy against and i dont think kennedy ever would have done what Lyndon Johnson did in vietnam. I dont think he would have put 545,000 troops. Heres an audio recording of john kennedy right before he was assassinated talking about the xiem coup. E was the president of south vietnam. Listen to this and get you to interpret this. Monday, november 4, 1963. Over the weekend the coup in saigon took place. Three months of conversation bout a coup. Close to a coup is general taylor, the attorney general, cretary machina mara to and mara to a less degree, as a result of the new hostility that he shifted his ation chief calling in favor of the coup of the state led by roger hillsman supported by hill of the white house. I figure that we must bare a good deal of responsible far beginning with our talks offer early august in which we suggested a coup. It was badly drafted. That should never been sent on a saturday. I should not have given my consent to it without a table conference in which macnamara and taylor could have presented their views. What did the United States do in relationship to shift the xiem . Theres no question that they facilitated the coup. Kennedys reck recollection was that the xiem was assasinated or killed. The generals said he committed suicide and kennedy didnt believe that. He was a good catholic. He met him privately and said he never would have done that. I think kennedy felt a certain amount of guilt over the fact that xiem was assasinated. Listen, whatever his failings he had the latest country for quite a few years and done constructive things and was a bulwark against a communist takeover. He was reflecting on his own recriminations about allowing such a coup to take place and also the kern now concern that the United States was going to have to take greater responsibility for vietnam than it had take nn the past. And kennedy was keen to get out of there. And he had a conversation with mike farstal, you see, the day he went to dallas, texas. And when he would return there would be a full scale review of vet unanimous including possibility of getting out. I dont think he would have put in those massive numbers of Ground Troops. I dont think he himself knew what he would have done. You know, brian, i love the anecdote that when he first came was first elected, Bobby Kennedy asked arthur if wow would like to be an ambassador. He said no, bobby, if i do anything i would like to be at the white house. A few days later he saw the president elect. Sorensen what said what will i be doing there . He said well both be busy more than eight hours a day. He understood that being president was not a set piece affair. That it evolved and he grew in that office. That in my ways was his greatest strength. I want to read back to you what you wrote in chapter eight. After eight months of interactions with his counselors, kennedy had diminished confidence in most of the men advising him on policy. With the exception of bobby who was principally soundingboard and instrument. He thought to rely less on his societies and more on himself for the hard decisions he seemed to be confronting all the time. Neither rusk nor mcna mara nor rostow was tow his National Security officer no, he was under bundy. Rostow became general had impressed him as all that masterful about any of the big issues that they faced in cuba, berlin, or vietnam. Thats a strong indictment it seems to me. He was someone who grew in the office. Was badly burned by the cuban bay pig experience. He had listened to the experts, see . C. I. A. , joint chiefs of staff. And he said, and he went to see e gall in france, made