Democrats, 202 5853880. Republicans, 202 5853881. Independents, 202 5853882. You can post your comments or email them at cspan. Org. To help us understand what is happening, we are joined by john herbst. How do we get to where we are now . There is great dissatisfaction, not just among people in the center and west of the country, but even in the east with his role. Corruption, which is a major problem in the ukraine, has become worse. You had his rejection of the trade deal and tens of thousands of protesters came out to protest. He made the mistake of cracking down. The crackdowns are not well received in the public. We had tens of thousands of demonstrators demonstrating on one day. After the crackdown, we have hundreds of thousands in the streets. The numbers have ebbed and flowed ever since. Insistingters are that he give up our. They want a ukraine that has democratic freedoms. Host who are the protesters . Guest they appeared spontaneously. Protesters that occurred the protests that occurred in 2004 were planned by the opposition parties. These occurred spontaneously after he broke the trade agreement with the eu. People came out in the streets addressing their frustration. You have Opposition Leaders in the ukraine. They only have some influence with the protesters. They do not control them. Protesters are bound and to bring concessions out of mr. Yana kovacic. Nukovich. There are some groups within them, but i would not put stock among the demonstrators. It is not as if there is a single group that speaks for more than a few hundred people in the streets. Host what you make of the violence . Guest ukraine in the post soviet. They do not have a traditional violence. This is a turbulent period. Reflects the heavy hand of Viktor Yanukovych. He used force to try to clear the streets. He does not seem to have the ability to use the major mama force necessary to clear the streets. The armed forces from his perspective are not reliable and he cannot count on them to turn arms against fellow citizens. The police, the main apparatus for exercising control, also not reliable. He has had to use the special police unit. Even they are not completely reliable. Note are people that do like the idea of firing on their fellow citizens. This may explain why the standoff has lasted so long. Host there was a reference in the paper two thugs. To thugs. Guest they are thugs who are hired to do the dirty work so the regime can claim they have nothing to do with the dirty work. They are out in the streets. There may be a few hundred of them. These are simply people who they hire, where is the people in the streets are committed to a new and better ukraine. That is the real story. This crisis has lasted for three months, despite the fact that it is in wintertime. Belowatures drop well zero. It has lasted this long because there are only two possible ways to resolve it. Either Viktor Yanukovych has to , or he haspression to offer a serious concession. He is not ready to do that. He has offered a lot of half measures. He fired the Prime Minister, it to. The reason he did not take it is because under the ukrainian constitution, Viktor Yanukovych can give him that job and fire him tomorrow. If theyo Real Authority do yana kovacic does not want him to have that if Viktor Yanukovych does not want him to have that authority. Host this is a statement put out on the official website of the ukrainian president. This is from earlier today. Radical protesters lots and ascension of launch an offensive on the lawn forced officials using firearms during the declared truce. All attempts of the government to establish dialogue and revolve resolve the conflict work ignored. These firearms including sniper rifles, they shoot to kill. Law enforcement officials are not armed and used special means. Bloodshedes to stop and confrontation are being taken. Guest that is excellent in order to justify a crackdown if they try another one. Not thet statement is most efficient propaganda. Look at the numbers that talk about. Dozens or scores of fatalities and injured. We know that there are many thousands of injuries among the protesters. The statement is that the police are not using firearms and they are not using librarian action. That is false. Any examination of the injury sustained by thousands of protesters proves that is false. Heres a tweet from an abc reporter. Diapers targeting news crews filming from windows, including abcs camera. That doesnt surprise me. They dont want an accurate portrayal of the story. One of the things Viktor Yanukovych did was shut down channel 5. It is owned by a member of the opposition. It was important during the orange revolution, conveying news about what is happening. It was important in this crisis, conveying real news. Targeting western journalists are just a step up from what he is doing by targeting by shutting down channel 5. He can solve this crisis tomorrow by offering a real concession. He has not been willing to do it. For him, maintaining power is important. Host Foreign Ministers of European Countries may have wrapped up their meetings with the president today. Called an emergency meeting to vote on sanctions later today. What do you make of this effort . Guest that is very important. The people doing the nasty things in the ukraine government are not driven by a strong ideal or ideology. They are driven by a love of power and the ability to become rich by being powerful. Eu were to sanction individual ukrainian officials responsible for the violence, refusing visas to come to europe, take action against their Financial Assets in europe, this would weekend the anukovych regime. Riches are in danger by carrying out these topicies, they will s doing it. Host should the u. S. Do the same . Guest we issued a visa sanctions on about 20 or so ukrainian officials. Would move towards some financial sanctions. Our impact will be less than the where ause it is because the eu is where they park their money, much less than the United States. I think we have done a good job so far. We have spoken out in support of democratic processes in the ukraine. We have cautioned the demonstrators to avoid violence. We lead the way on visa sanctions four weeks ago. Withve been in touch Viktor Yanukovych and others to express our concerns about what is happening. Should move to financial sanctions, but i dont think this is a tool we should use on a broad scale. Choose one or two people and let the europeans choose one or two people. The idea is not to punish folks. It is to encourage them to stop doing nasty and violent things. This economically and diplomatically, not a military . Guest it is not a military matter. With thehe ukraine fighting, it is not a military issue. The Ukrainian Military has not been involved in political affair since the country became independent. During the orange revolution, the military made it clear that they would not accept a crackdown on protesters. So far this crisis has been studiously outside of the whole contest. Thing mr. Yana kovacic this week, he sat the chief of the army. The fear is that this man may be g theested in helpin government crackdown. This is not an option and operation of just my service. They do not want to repress the ukrainian people. Host john herbst is our guest. 2006. Ved from 2003 to what should the role of the United States be . Mark, brighton, massachusetts. I would like to bring up the recent conversations which were brought to light of the u. N. Best the u. S. Ambassador who was candid about what the was, which was to bring the ukraine into the European Union and into their fold and away from russia. My question is, if we are doing we do if thered was outside the capital of ec, of d. C. , people through maltz of cocktails s molotov cocktails at police, do you think they would move them down with machine guns . Mischaracterize the phone conversation between tori newland and jeff. What they said, they talked about how they would like to see the opposition respond to the last offer from mr. Yanukovych o. Tori newland was reported to say it would be a good thing if became the Prime Minister. Gentleman remained outside the government. That is all they said. If you listened to my conversation with greta, the opposition rejected the proposal to take the Prime Minister. Of course american diplomats have the opinions about individual matters in ukraine. That does not mean we control it. You mischaracterize the demonstrations. The demonstrations were peaceful from the start. The first violence was applied by mr. Yanukovych. There have been several efforts since then to crackdown on the demonstrators. Depression has been overwhelmingly a tool implied employed by the authorities. You havent seen organized repression and violence on the part of the demonstrators, except in defense. The casualties suggest there are thousands of casualties among the protesters. There are not hundreds of casualties among the police. The usa has no role in ukraine as president obama has made us no longer a superpower. Another says if it is a civil war, i dont make we should have any role, unless we started up. Another says we need to keep our nose out of it. I want to get to those sentiments. Is this a civil war, and our role, but first, Andrew Kramer is joining us on the phone. He is in kiev. What is happening there now . In thei am standing square and there has been a resumption of violence this morning. Morning about 8 00 this. Hen there were gunshots there was quite a bit of gunfire. I heard gunfire coming from the police. It was a scene of mayhem. Host does it continue now . Guest ere is there is a temporary lull. I suspect they will declare a state of emergency this afternoon. The Opposition Leaders have a plan to hold a recession of parliament. Host what does the state of emergency mean . Guest he could bring in the and to declare martial law try to restore order in the capital. Host the president met with the Foreign Ministers of European Countries. What is the news coming out of that . I have not seen the news from that. I have been out on the square today. Host what were they going to talk about . I think the delegates would be raising me threat of sanctions against ukraine. There have been discussions about the eu joining the u. S. In sanctioning officials deemed to be responsible for the violence. Host there are reports that comings sniper gunfire at cameras. News tweeted out a picture as well. Have you witnessed this . Guest yes. There has been quite a bit of sniper fire on the square this morning. When i was out, there were rifle bullets whizzing by in the square. There was shot gunfire, which is a more standard crowd control measure. A doctor has seen some loans from a shotgun some wounds from a shotgun shot. Host a doctor was saying there are wounds to the eye of patient they were seeing. Guest those would likely be from the concussion grenades. Outside my hotel, there were 11 bodies on the sidewalk. Some of them had been hit by real ammunition. Whatever caused their deaths, it was not a concussion grenade. ,ost what are the crowds like compared to the previous days . Guest the crowds are large. Many of them are wearing constructionor and helmets, skating pads from inline skates, caring baseball bats and gloves. Some of them are also carrying guns. Theres also a good number of people that look like they might , bringing groceries and supplies, but the mood is tense. They have been capturing policeman and parading them through the crowd. Saw one man struck by a protester. Ofre has been plenty violence, so i do not want to say this is general. We are showing a live feed from reuters. They have one of their cameras set up so people can go to their website to watch this. This area that we are looking at, is characterized as calm, compared to what youre talking about. Your hotel is outside of the square . Guest it is right on the square. Host how are you able to cover this story . Guest the police had approached from two sides of the square. Causeintention was to people to leave, not so much to trap them over the last two days or so. Road testers have built a defensive barricade within about 20 yards of the main stage and then they ate knighted a large bonfire of tires. That was the ring of fire that was intended to keep the crowd a control vehicles away from the stage after some of the vehicles had burned. This was kept up for about a day and a half. Her testers moved from outside their barricades and pushed the policeman back. Host are you concerned for your safety . Guest i am being careful. Host lets talk about the death toll. It has reached 35 or more. How are you getting information about how many have been killed . Thet the information from classes on tuesday was from the Health Ministry of the ukraine. I think their numbers may be off by one person. Today, i do not know. I saw what i think is nine bodies on the square. I saw them bringing in wounded and dead people on stretchers. I think the final death toll is not determined. Host what are you watching for today . Guest i think it is important to see if yanukovych declares a state of emergency. He could declare this type of violence is unacceptable in the center of its capital. Whether that would have an effect is unclear. Also, the opposition planned to use parliament to take back power by changing the constitution. That could be a development today. Also, i am just watching the square. Kramer, with the New York Times, stay safe. What did you hear . Guest he gave a good description of the assumption of violence. I think he was shrewd to observe that mr. Yanukovych consid ering a state of emergency, but what that means. It is important, although probably not, but is likely they will not succeed in making reforms. If mr. Yanukovych of his allies to go with the opposition, you would have constitutional reform which would be the way to end this crisis peacefully. During the orange revolution, the two sides were at a standoff. The second round of the thetial election president ial election was falsified. The government recognizes they cannot maintain this election. They agreed to a third round of the vote. They also insisted the government the government insisted on constitutional reform. This is exactly the same technique to avoid confrontation. Host this tweet that lets show that to our viewers. U. N. Wants to intervene in the ukraine, the u. S. Should join a coalition, but we should not do anything on our own. Nothing. Viewers to weigh in. A video of the mayor announcing leaving the ruling party in euromaidaner violence. Guest we thought it might be the loss of the beginning of internal cohesion. Mr. Yanukovych was able to stop that. Became a common , it is a possibility. Us bank more evidence of people shooting host more evidence of people shooting. The u. S. Do not think has any role in what is happening. When you look at the republicans and they keep saying there is no money for unemployment and this and that, how can they find money to go into another war. We do not need to be a part of anything else. It will be an amount of time before you see john mccain saying lets arm these people in the next people. You give them rifles and you dont know who you are giving them to. As for the president , stay out of it. We do not want to be involved in another war. Lets focus on the problems we have here and put our own money here to help our people. Host john mccain put out a ease calling for sanctions against ukrainian persons. They are drafting legislation. That could come to the floor for a vote next week. We will see how this develops. Do you want to weigh in on what she had to say . Guest i have all expressed a concern that the United States would intervene in the ukraine. I think this is a natural concern. We have been very incompetent in anddeployments in iraq afghanistan. In libya, we did not do well. This is a different situation. We should be active in ukraine. I have talked about that. Sending talking about american troops or billions of american dollars into the ukraine. Im talking about acts of diplomacy. Interest that the ukrainian people have a chance to live in a democracy. It is an hour interest it is promotenterest to democracy. We should do this. It is part of creating a world that would be better for american interests. Host until the economic problems that the people feel in ukraine are dressed with them in mind, they appear at the end of their rope. What is there economy like . Yes bank that is a smart observation. One of the main reasons for this great frustration with mr. Yanukovych is the fact that ukrainian economy has been sputtering along and all the president and his allies seem to sure that they can steal ukrainian resources. Alexanderents son, has become a wealthy man because they are able to buy government assets at Bargain Basement prices. That is why mr. Yanukovych wants to hang onto power. What are their resources . Guest they have serious industrial capacity, chemical industries, serious agricultural assets. They have the largest Transportation System of Gas Pipelines in the world. There are assets that can be privatized. Factbook. Is the cia they put together the numbers on all the different countries. This is what they say about imports and where they get their import partners. 32 from russia. China, nine percent. This is from 2012. Their export partners, russia, 25 . Turkey, five percent. Egypt, four percent. What about russias ties economically and otherwise, politically, to the ukraine. Guest those ties are large. Is also true that the cultural ties are substantial. People talk about the division in the ukraine between the east on one side and the west on the other. Theeast is looking towards west culturally and the west looking towards europe culturally. Ukraine needs to have a Good Relationship with russia. Having Good Relationships with russia does not mean that ukraine should be forced into the eurasian economic union. It is a disastrous idea for Economic Development for not just the ukraine, but for russia itself. The principal busi