Look for these titles in booksts coming this week and watch for the authors in the near future on booktv. Meg jacobs, its really a pleasure to get a chance to talk to you here at the carter center. I and also welcome the audience thats come out tonight to listen to our conversation. Meg jacobs is the author of panic at the pump the Energy Crisis and the transformation of american politics in the 1970s. Meg is a, teaches history and Public Affairs at princeton. Youve written this is your third or fourth book . Something like that. Something like that . You wrote a book i was interested in because were going to be talking about conservatives, liberals, but one of them is you were the coauthor of account gives conservatives in power the reagan years, 19811989. Okay, interesting. Okay. Were going to talk a bit about conservative politics and liberal politics, for that matter, too tonight. Lets start with this, if we can. Okay. And you correct me. You have a thesis for this book, and ill let you describe it, obviously. But, essentially, what you argue in this book is that the two Energy Crises of the 70s 73, 79 yeah. Essentially were part of and a major factor in the transformation of american politics. And among other things, made americans realize that perhaps government could not take care of them the way we had assumed for a long time. And, thus, paving the way for a conservative revolution. Fair enough . Fair enough. Very good job. Thank you. [laughter] and thanks for having me here. That is, that is what i discovered in writing this. And its really it became a really interesting story, the way that all of the anger, the frustration as americans waited hours upon hours on gas lines during these two oil shocks really led to a transformation in how americans perceived their relationship to government. That government, in fact, could no longer take care of them, provide for them, guarantee them access to the kind of lifestyle theyd been living. And that really comes to a head in the summer of 1979 when people are just furious and blame washington, hold w accountable. Well, of course, explore that in more depth as we move through our conversation. But, you know, some of the people who will listen to this, some people over here have no recollection of what either of those crises were like. This was, in both cases, tremendously traumatic episodes in our contemporary history, werent they . Well, if you think about it, right, regardless of when you were born because i think this still holds true. If you ask americans what possession sort of best symbolizes, you know, your sense of, you know, of being an american, people would say the car, right . Theres a long romance with the car. And, indeed, right up until the oil shock, right up until the Energy Crisis american cars were getting bigger and bigger and bigger. They were living rooms on wheels, and people felt a deep attachment. And now you take the car, this sort of symbol of progress of american success, and now its become the opposite. Its a sign and symbol of weakness, of decline, of decay as people wait for hours upon hours in these milelong gas lines. That, thats it. The gas lines were the most dramatic symbol of how americans had to rethink how we lived. And they were i mean, i remember them quite well. I remember the fear that we had of driving with almost no gas left in our cars and hoping that we could get to a gas station that might have a short enough line that there be gas left. It was really extraordinary. It was not the america that we thought wilied in. We lived in. Well, i chose the title panic at the pump, its a phrase that journallests and reporters used at the time. And i thought it was really apt to call the book panic at the pump because that sense of pandemonium really captured americans mindset at the time. And its interesting to think about why. The actual shortage of fuel was not overwhelming, did not in and of itself require a massive change in lifestyle. And yet americans reacted as if this was the end of the world as they had known it. And so this triggered a kind of behavior, a sort of paniclike behavior where as you described, the sort of fear of running out. And so people were driving around with a months supply of gasoline in their tanks rather than, you know, rather than in the ground which, of course, exacerbated the crisis. Well, the Energy Crisis of the mid 70s or the continuing Energy Problems that led to the crisis at the end of the 70s had a major impact on the carter presidency as you talk about in great detail. And because were sitting here in the carter president ial library, we will get to a little bit more indepth conversation specifically about carter and what he experienced in trying to deal with the problems that he faced with energy. But lets back up for a minute. Okay. You kind of bookend your book with george h. W. Bush. Yeah. You open the book with george and barbara bush moving to odessa, texas, to do what . They go in search of oil and the American Dream. So george h. W. Bush graduates from yale in 1948, he decides he doesnt want to follow in his familys footsteps and go to wall street. Hes going to go search for his own fortune, albeit with some family connections, out in texas. And it really sort of captured what i was talking about a moment ago, this sort of sense of endless abundance, right . So this is a moment of great discoveries in west texas, and he arrives right at the right moment, and its there that hes going to seek his fortune and also help to build the Republican Party which we can talk about too in texas. And so we start there before the 1973 arab embargo, because i want to sort of capture what america, what American Culture was like, what expectations of the average american were like that sort of best represented by this freeflowing black gold that came out of the ground. And i end the book in 1991 after weve been through the Energy Crisis which americans saw as a crisis of shortage, a crisis of scarcity, a crisis of dependence on foreign oil. And so the book ends with george h. W. Bush, the oilman, as president in the white house with the gulf war when americans go to secure the access of oil from the middle east. Fascinating story arc, actually. One of the things you point out is that in terms of is searching for the American Dream when he and barbara arrive, they arrive in texas in, as you say, 48. And theyre the perfect time because theres been a huge, a discovery of a huge oil reserve. Yes. This raybury trend . Yes. So this was a promise that wed made the right decision. We were going to make it big in the oil business. Yeah. And whats interesting and what sort of then sets the story in motion is when that appears to no longer be the case. So america had been the great energy producer, oil producer throughout the 20th century. Its what literally helped to fuel the growth of our economy, a sort of cardriven economy. But by the late 1960s, there was the sense that we had reached our peak of domestic production. Lets back up even a little bit more because, you know, bush may have gone to the oil fields hoping that he would just be an oil man, but when youre dealing with oil in this country, you cant escape politics, and he learned that relatively quickly. Yeah. In 1954, you remind us, the Supreme Court immediate an important made an important ruling that would help trigger george bushs interest in getting involved politically in the production and distribution of oil. So the Supreme Court ruled that the government has the right, the ability to control natural gas prices. And natural gas and oil to often come out of the same well in the ground. Theyre seen as interchangeable fuels in some instances. And so the fear and the concern of oil men like bush is that now the governments going to interfere across the board and control the price of oil too. And whats interesting about the Supreme Court decision is it comes out of this sort of new deal mentality that americans sort of have the right, as fdr said in 1932 when he was first running for president , that electricity is not a luxury, right . That americans have a sort of right to cheap and affordable energy. And americans sort of have that mentality, and it hadnt really been a problem until we start to have demands that exceed our supply. One of the important points that you make, excuse me, one of the important points that you make in the book is that we associate the new deal with roosevelt and the democrats, but, in fact, the new deal infused a lot of republican thinking of the time as well. Federal government having a major role in helping people live better lives. Well, i think that we could see the period from the 40s, 50s on as a sort of consensus of that position. But then there were interesting people like george h. W. Bush who, in response to the Supreme Court decision and then also later to the environmental movement, felt that the problem is too much government interference. And so bush quite deliberately deliberately and its an exaggeration to say singlehandedly, but hes very instrumental in trying to build up the Republican Party in texas. And with the argument that if the republican its the Republican Party that supports Free Enterprise and so to actually increase our domestic supply to make us secure, that we have to sort of vote republican and remove all of these controls. And this sets up a tension, a dynamic that will be at play throughout your entire book. Controls, deregulation, where do we get our oil from, domestic or foreign. And this plays out through the entire history of this period that youre writing about. Yes. One thing that we tend to lose sight of is that the new deal in some ways, that kind of mentality lived a lot longer than we remember. The sort of expectation that government will take care of us, and if all of a sudden theres a shortage and gasoline prices spike through the roof, well, then its governments job to do something about it. And that mentality is really still very much in play in the 1970s including when president carter has to deal with this problem in the summer of 1979. Okay. Fascinating. Its especially fascinating to think about it in light of what were dealing with in contemporary politics right now. The notion that government will take care of us is probably less manifest right now than maybe ever before, i think, but youre the historian. I think that thats true. And be so one of the reasons that i set out to write this book is i wanted to see when that changed, when and how that sort of changed. And it looked to me like a crucial moment came with the Energy Crisis. Of course, the stories of sort of the disillusionment with washington started before. So we have vietnam, of course, we have watergate. But i see those events as playing out differently than the Energy Crisis. Go ahead, im sorry. Sorry. I didnt mean to interrupt you. So the argument, essentially, is that if vietnam and watergate taught americans that they could not trust their political leaders, then the Energy Crisis demonstrated that washington didnt work. So lets walk through these crises. Okay. And well, as i said, were going to look at the first crisis a little bit more quickly because we do want to focus on our host here tonight, jimmy carter. By the way, we will at a certain point turn the microphones over to you, so if youre going to think about the questions you may want to ask when we get to that point of our conversation. 1967 the arabisraeli war breaks out, and thats the first time that the arab states decide that perhaps they should Work Together to use oil as a pressure against americas involvement with israel. But they cant make it work at that point. No. Why not . Well, i mean, what the difference between 1967 when its ineffective and 1973 when they are effective is the changing situation in the sort of global oil market, and the United States plays a key role in that. So its just at this moment that demand for energy is sort of endless in the United States, so we make up about at that time about a fifth, 5 of the worlds population, but we use Something Like you say 80 in the book. Does that seem right . No. I think we used about onethird of the oh, that makes more sense. So theres this growing demand that people move farther and farther from where they work, and they drive more and more, and they expect all climates to be fully airconditioned and at the exact right temperature. But theres declining domestic supply, and that transformation happens pretty quickly from the late 60s into 73. And its because of that changing situation that the arab producers understand that they have more leverage in the marketplace. But even in the first arabisraeli war, the fact that it was known that the arab states were thinking about using oil as a weapon woke some people up in the Political Leadership here that we could not risk dependence on middle eastern oil. By 1970 you say opec was producing twice as much oil as the United States, so we were in a dangerous situation. And yet one leaders actually are not fully aware of. Because the other thing okay. That happens in this period as sort of domestic decline, supply declines is for the first time we also become a major importer of oil. So in 1970 we dont import that much. By 1973 we import about a third of our oil needs. So actually, so george h. W. I thought, and maybe im wrong, but i want to make clarify this, because if it isnt right, i want them to be aware of it, and we can also deal with it in the radio broadcast. But i thought h. W. Said war brought home the fact the free world could not risk a dependence on foreign oil. Yes. So the oil men in this country, and hes sort of this back and forth character because by now hes in washington as a congressman right. Theyre warning, theyre sounding the warning. Oh, okay. Theyre sounding the warnings, but no ones really listening to them. Its not the political leaders, its the oil interests. Yeah. Hes sort of their lone, you know, republican voice from the south, but no ones really listening. And so when the arab embargo comes in the fall of 1973, one of nixons advisers describes it as an energy pearl harbor. I mean, it really sort of comes as that much of a shock. Well, lets talk about that. Although we could say in 1969 nixons in office, and we have the Santa Barbara oil pill. At the time, horrendous spill. Horrendous natural disaster. Yeah. And it forces nixon to suddenly think about becoming a conservationist, of all things. True. And we could say, you know, that nixon did a lot for the environmental movement, and he signed into law the National Environmental policy act which is this sweeping piece of legislation, one thats impossible to imagine today, you know, where it talks about the coexistence between man and nature. And nixon does this. He thinks this will boost his standing for his reelection battle in 72. And these are the pressures that the oil industry is experiencing. So as theyre having to drill in sort of more remote and harsher locales, they are now perceive themselves to be saddled with all these new regulations, and so this is what sort of intensifies the crunch. And theyre the first ones who Start Talking about this crunch. Okay, terrific. Thank you for setting that up. Now we come to 1973. Okay. When you point out the Energy Crunch really hit hard. The northeast, midwest had tremendous shortages of heating oil. Yep. The arabisraeli war, this yom kippur war, comes along yeah. And this time the arab states say, yeah, we are going to use oil as a weapon. And they announce an embargo, right . Yeah. So in retaliation for the United States support of israel, the arab producers announce an embargo. And they also do another thing which is even more consequential which is they announce a cutback in production which is going to shrink the supply and allow them also to do a massive price increase. And so its this combination of a shortage and a surge in prices that americans are completely stunned by. And what does the Nixon White House do to respond to this . How do they decide first to act on this . Well, nixon was a good politician. He understood issues that resonated with voters. He understood that this would be what his pollsters said was a gut level issue. And hes trying to figure out what to do. And hes faced with a Democratic Congress. And the congress says, well, you know, lets ration, which is impossible for us to imagine today. And in some ways the 1970s are much closer to the 1940s than they are to today. And rationing actually falls only eight votes short in the senate, and they also say lets put, lets roll back the prices at the pump. And these things actually happen, which is impossible for us to imagine today. But the sort of anger and even violence and sense of chaos on the gas lines is really quite intense. So under pressure, nixon appoints the firstever energy czar. And as a reminder, there is no such thing as a department of energy. Because energys not perceived to be something that we have to do anything about. We just have a lot of it, so we dont have to do anything about it. [laughter] so there is no department of energy. And nixon appoints, under pressure, the firstever energy czar, William Simon, who is a sort of free market wall street guy that finds himself under pressure to make decisions like which, you know, which plunge events which Public Events should go on as planned . Should we have the daytona 500 or maybe this year it should be the daytona 4530 . That was an actual conversation. That was an actual conversation and decision [laughter] that he had to decide. [laughter] so, you know, so you have, so this really sort of elaborate intervention to try and deal with the sort of sense of crisis coming from the gas lines. And at the same time, what was happening with inflation . Oh, i thought you were going to