Hi. So when i think about empowered women, i also am curious about their relationship to their fathers growing up. So you talked a little wit a little bit about their childhood, so im curious to know what was the relationship with each woman with her father. Certainly for Elizabeth Gurley flynn, her father, tom none, was a very flynn, was a very important figure in her life. And she he was a very strong socialist, and actually the whole family converted to socialism in 1902. And in that way i think he really influenced Elizabeth Gurley flynn, and he supported her. I mean when she was just, you know, 15 or 16 he would kind of travel around with her around new york city where she would speak and to the places like philadelphia or new jersey. And so he was often kind of accompanying her on her early talks. And i think he was very proud of her. And one of the interesting things was really the pride that her family took if her work. And i know he was very proud of her, but one of the reasons i was able to write book was because they saved all of these clippings of her appearances. So just rare newspaper clippings that would be very difficult to get, you know, from just obscure little papers. And the family took it all and saved it, you know . Its all pasted into these books which is amazing. Shirley guess chism adored her family. He was from guyana. He was working class, he was a staunch unionist, he was a garveyite, and Shirley Chism always said that if her father had been able to go to college, could afford to go to college, could have gotten into college he would have been a great professor. And he supported her all her work. And before he died he became an admirer of the growing black militancy that was developing in brooklyn. I have to say i dont know much about angela davis relationship with her father. I certainly jotted that down [laughter] as an area of future inquiry for me. But she was definitely i think her mother had an Important Role in her life and her sister in particular. I think when you ask people about her and its not sort of angela davis, its like shes always appeared with her sister as two people who continued to, you know be public in terms of their support, whose friendship was very well known and things like that. But im definitely still sort of exploring her relationship to different family members. I mean i spoke to a little bit to katherine beechers relationship with her father and his influence. I mean, it was immeasurable. [laughter] you know, he really hes kind of an interesting figure too, actually because he [inaudible] even though he didnt approve of it in any way, shape or form. [laughter] so he was this kind of fire and brimstone preacher, but at the same time, his children wrote about him so lovingly and so supportive, and she also adored her father. And even, you know, he was very, very torn up about her failure to convert which was very important to a evangelical minister and that really was a point of contention between the two of them for a while, but he certainly approved of her, of her past in terms of reform. I think that was very interesting. I would have asked about their mothers, being a mother. [laughter] i would have that was an interesting question. I think were sort of beyond our time limit. But i would imagine that over a glass of wine you could corner any of these [laughter] historians and talk to them. And theyll sign books. And i do want to, for those of you who are teachers these are books that can be read by high school students, these are books that definitely your sons and your brother withs ought to brothers ought to read. Women already know about women, its the men that we need to have read these books. And theyre not expensive and theyre really very well written, so i want to put in a mug for looking at this in a plug for looking at this series as an educational property as well as just for the joy of reading about these women. Thank you all and ill add that we have two of the books the two that are published right here in our shop. So i want to thank everybody robin, barbara, laura cindy thank you so much, carol for a wonderful discussion. [applause] [inaudible conversations] booktv is on facebook. Like us to get publishing news, scheduling updates, behindthe behindthescenes pictures and videos, author information and to talk directly with authors during our live programs. Facebook. Com booktv. And now, after words on booktv. Pulitzer prizewinning historian eric foner examines the efforts of free blacks and white abolitionists to secure freedom for fugitive slaves during the 19th century. He speaks with edna green medford from mouther university. Howard university. Host we are joined today by professor eric foner professor of history at Columbia University. Professor foner is the author or editor of two dozen volumes many of them Award Winners including the fiery trial Abraham Lincoln and american slavery, which won the Pulitzer Bancroft and lincoln prizes in 2011. Professor foner, thank you for joining us today. Guest thanks very much for having me. Host gateway to freedom a Hidden History to the underground railroad. How did you arrive at this subject and this title . Guest well, the title, i guess, is meant to reflect its the book centers on new york city, although it deals with a lot of other places but the title is meant to suggest that new york was a kind of gateway. When fugitive slaves got to new york city, they were then very quickly sent to upstate new york eventually to canada and they could really achieve freedom. And so new york was kind of a pivotal turning point in their journey from slavely to freedom. Slavery to freedom. I got interested in the subject completely accidentally actually. A few years ago a student of mine who was working on a senior thesis at columbia about Sidney Howard gaye an abolitionist journalist, she was interested in his journalistic career but she said to me in the papers which we have at our columbia library, theres this document about fugitive slaves. Im not sure what its about, you might find it interesting. So i filed it away, and one day i was up there, and i had never heard of this document called the record of fugitives. Id never seen it cited anywhere. But basically for two years 18551856, gaye a journalist and also an activist in the underground railroad, recorded the experiences of over 200 men, women and children who came through new york city, fugitive slaves on their way to freedom. And being a journalist, he really interviewed them and took down their stories, who owned them, why they escaped how they escaped, who helped them, how they got to new york, where he sent them and even how much money he spent, like on train tickets for them. So this was a remarkable document. Id never seen anything like it, and i decided to try the track down the leads in the record of fugitives and see if i could paint a picture of the underground railroad as it came through new york city. So the book began with a document. You know usually as you know, edna, you start with a historical question, and then you try to find the sources that can answer it. Here its the opposite, i started with a document and worked outward from it trying to piece together a narrative of history. Host marvelous. What was the underground railroad . If you could briefly describe for us exactly what it was and is how it operated and how many people actually took advantage of the system. Guest right. Well, you know, everybody interested in American History probably has heard the term can the underground railroad. Its very widely known as a phrase. Its easy to say what it was not. It was not a highly organized regularized system with set routes and stations and station masters. It was much more loosely organized than that. The underground railroad, id say is was a group of local networks of abolitionist activists, some in the south mostly once you got north of the Mason Dixon Line either in rural areas like southern pennsylvania or cities like philadelphia, new york syracuse boston. And they were all they communicated with each other, and they were dedicated to helping fugitive slaves. Now, of course, the Initiative Comes from these slaves. The underground railroad was not in the south telling slaves to escape. So the first thing was for slaves actually running away in various modes, but then they would make contact with either agents of the underground railroad or people who werent agents but might know, well, okay, this is a fugitive slave. I know that theres a guy up the road here who may help him out. So its a Loose Network. It rises and falls over time. The Philadelphia Committee went out of existence for several years. So one shouldnt take the railroad metaphor literally, that it was a set system, you know . How many escaped, you know nobody knows because so much of this is in secret. You know i estimate but this is an educated guess maybe a thousand slaves a year got out of slavery to the north and canada in the 30 years before the civil war. So thatd be 30,000 people. Thats a substantial number. Now, there were four million slaves in 1860 sos this is not destroy so this is not destroying the institution of slavery. But 30,000 people gaining their freedom with the assistance of white and black are activists is something i think we can look back on with pride in our history. Host you speak of the underground railroad as a quasipublic institution. What do you mean by that . Guest well, in a way maybe as a reviewer pointed out recently the subtitle of my book the Hidden History, might be slightly misleading. I was trying to say, well, the new york part of this was unknown, so it was kind of hidden. But, yes. The people involved in the underground railroad were abolitionists and were involved in the Abolitionist Movement. So on the one hand, theyre engaged in secret and illegal really activities in sheltering and assisting escaped slaves. On the other hand, theyre going to public meetings, gaye is publishing a newspaper, theyre petitioning the legislatures of their states. In some places theyre actually holding bake sales you might almost call it, fairs, bazaars to raise money to help fugitive slaves. And when you get up to upstate new york like syracuse the underground railroad is completely open. The key activist there Jermaine Logan himself a refuge tuf advertised in the newspapers. He said, hey, anyone knows anything about a fugitive slave send them to me. He had fundraising parties at his house. The authorities up there were antislavery. They didnt bother lo to began. So depending on logan. Depending on where you were, it was more or less secret and more or less open. In new york it was pretty secret because new york was a place with close ties to the south, with a lot of Public Officials who were happy to help apprehend fugitive slaves. So it wasnt as public as, lets say, in syracuse or albany, places like that. Host lets talk about that for a minute. This prosouthern sentiments in new york. Slavery ends in new york in 1827 but theres strong sentiment in favor of the south for a long time after that. Why is that . What is it, what is this connection with new york and the Southern States . Guest yeah. This is something not emphasized in our im a new yorker, as you well know, and we dont emphasize this in our view of our own history. New yorkers, we pride ourselves on being a bastion of liberalism, of tolerance multicultural city. It wasnt like that in the first part of the 19th century. First of all, slavery was a vigorous presence in the colonial era, and it lasted all the way down to 1827 and even that there were slaves on the streets of new york. Southerners visiting the city were allowed to bring slaves with them until 1841. So thats 20 years before the civil war there were still slaves visible on the streets of new york. But the key thing is new york was economically tied to the slave south. New york merchants controlled the cotton trade, new york bankers financed the expansion of slavery in the south, new york shipbuilders built the ships, new york insurance companies. The bows review the most important southern monthly periodical before the civil war which was actually published in new york city t said new york city is as depends on slavery as much as charleston does. So the economy of the city was very chosely tied to that closely tied to that of the south, and that also led to ramifications. Business interests wanted to appease the south politicians were prosouthern in their attitudes on, you know, on the sectional conflict. The Abolitionist Movement in new york was quite small and weak compared to other places. On the other hand, new york also had a vigorous Free Black Community, people who were willing to take to the streets to protest the p apprehension of fugitive slaves. So in a sense, new york is a little epitome of the sectional conflict. New york is a house divided just like the nation itself. Host yeah, your point is well taken that there is a vibrant Free Black Community in new york and so theyre very much involved in supporting these fugitives who are arriving. They are forming vigilance committees with white new yorkers as well, of course. But free black people have a prominent role to play in the underground railroad and what happens to people who are fugitives when they arrive in new york. Why have we not guest oh absolutely. Host heard very much about that before . Guest yeah, that is absolutely right, and i do try to emphasize that in my book. These socalled vigilance committees philadelphia, new york boston, etc. Syracuse which were what they called themselves these groups trying to help fugitive slaves, were almost entirely black. Except for the one in boston for a while had more whites. The one in new york city, the first one was created by david ruggles, a black abolitionist. But there were white abolitionists involved. These were interracial organizations, and much of the money came from whites. Most free black people were rather poor in this period. They had limited economic opportunities. Money was raised among them but in new york when they needed money, they went to louis tapppan, a welltodo new yorker. They went to jared smith, a wealthy upstate abolitionist. So whites were contributing must be and taking money and taking part in the activities. But most of the activity is by free blacks, and many of them are totally anonymous or unknown to us. Black dock workers, for example. There were fugitives who came in hidden on ships. Dock workers would notify local ab lissist activists, okay, send them to the antislavery office. Blacks who worked at the Railroad Depots blacks who worked in hotels as cooks or you know Domestic Workers if a southerner came to the hotel in new york as they frequently did with a slave they would say, hey look, you know, you can become free if you want. So their activity was very very important. Why dont we hear more about it . You know, after the civil war the white abolition is wrote abolitionists wrote their own histories, they wrote their memoirs, they wrote about the underground railroad, and they tended to make this a kind of a White Enterprise in giving assistance to sort of helpless black people. And the heroes were the white abolitionists. Now, many of them were heroic. Im not trying to deny that in the slightest but the story was skewed in these reminisce senses in the late 19th century and its taken a long time for scholars to put the free black communities back at the center of assistance to fugitive slaves. Host uhhuh, indeed. You mentioned that by 1830 theres a presence of militant abolitionism and accompanying that is a greater increase in flight from slavery. Why is it happening . Why are both happening at this particular time in American History . Guest well, there had been antislavery sentiment as you know back to the revolutionary era in new york. There was a society created in 1785 or 1786 to push for abolition in new york, but those groups were very, i dont know, moderate compared to what came later. The new york society, they did very important things. They set up the African Free School to educate black children a major thing. But they were upper crust types. Many of them actually owned slaves even as they were campaigning for the ab his of slavery, and abolition of slavery, and they certainly did not violate the law. Tray tried to they tried to help, but they said we are not going to violate law to to help people get out of slavery. The new generation of abolitionists that comes about in the late 1820s 1830s arises partly to out of the evangelical movement of that time, the religious revivals which inspire some white people and blacks to kind of think they can rid society of the sin of slavery right away. It inspires it also they also have this militant Free Black Community coming into its own which is partly because of the opposition to the colonization movement. You know in 1817 the colonization societys established dedicated to getting rid of the whole black population from the United States and free blacks find that a tremendous threat to their status and they mobilize against it. So by the 1830s you have these two groups who come together, evangelical whites and militant blacks, to form a much more activist and radical Abolitionist Movement, and then they start assisting fugitive slaves in illegal ways. Its against the law to help a fugitive slave, but they say no, this is the law of god not law of man that we are abiding by here. And i think more slaves to start escaping because of knowledge that there are people willing to assist them. Slaves had escaped ever since there was slavery. Back in the colonial period slaves try to escape but there were no organizations to help them. And most of the slaves probably got recaptured back then. But now you have groups being formed who are publicly saying were going to help fugitive slaves, and news of that, i think, percolates back into the south and inspires more people to try toes cape. Host i think the main point you make is that running a