Transcripts For CSPAN2 Dave Zirin The Kaepernick Effect 2022

Booktv. Org. Just type the office to in the search bar at the top of the page. So tonight i am really thrilled to welcome dave zirin, author of the new book the kaepernick effect and is conversation partner kahlil greene, a historian at essence where the have social media followers. We sold much to share elevator dusen. For some its a word about the book. So many of us remember the quite in the same time its action called Colin Kaepernick took five is go. We witness the mass masterl movement that is taken shape since then and we saw about the courage to stand up as an athlete takes and the stakes at play. This book reflects on all of that. Its about the politics of sports and impact of sports on politics and its about the players, cross generations and level inspired by using the platform of the field or court to fight police brutality, injustice and racism. The program tonight as part of a series of discussions connected to the center for history [inaudible] which dives dies deeply ie history of black led protests. All of its many facets by going to the link in the chat. I suspect that this will prompt many of you to want to explore this book further. We will also include in the chat to the website of the local brooklyn bookstore, the community bookstore, so you can click and learn more about the kaepernick effect. A few final notes in that i will happily handed off. You have the option to engage closed captioning, you can simply click that at the bottom of your screen, and finally we would like to share your questions. Type it into the q a box also at the bottom of your screen. All right. Now, let me briefly introduce date and khalil and invite them when they ducked out young that digital curtain and handed off to them. Briefly because i could go on but im not, dave zirin is the Sports Editor of the nation, a columnist for the progress and the host of the podcast. His books include a peoples history of sports in the unitedd states, game over, that sports and connect. Davis been a regular guest on msnbc, cnn and espn, also named one of the most [inaudible] elected the first black student body president in jails 318 year history. Hes currently in a special moment of history. Has approximate happening followers across his Tiktok Instagram platforms where he, its about history and our society. He has worked in sports and popculture website and authored about Racial Equity in the times, the Washington Post among others. Thank you both so much for being here and im going handed over to you. Thank you so much for the introduction. Dave, how are you . Im greatly. Great. Im so happy to be here. I such warm feelings for brooklyn, for the society, so this is just everything for me. Im so grateful for you to make the time to visit. Same. Im for a burr my mom is from bed sty, born and enrages sa great sort of return to where shes from but i think if you want to get started we could jump right into the questions if that sounds good to you. It does except i live in maryland now. Where did you grow up . Really . Im in montgomery county. After i am right now. I was born and raised in germantown, maryland,. Im sitting here in tacoma park maryland. Wow, wow. There you go. Thats amazing. Shout out to maryland. How about we jump into it . I think the first question on the audiences mind and a guest mind before to read the book, id love to hear in your own words what is the kaepernick affect . The kaepernick the fact is the Chain Reaction that took place after Colin Kaepernick first set during the anthem and then took a need in august and september of 2016. But i think the best way to describe the effect is just something about how he came up with this idea that want to spend a big chunk of my life working on this book and talking to people and in of income and whatnot. Like it started when i was talking in 1968 olympian john carlos is a famously raised his fist on the stand in mexico city, and john a couple years ago looked at me and he just said, you know, they come after raise my fist in mexico city a tongue of young people starting a track meet around the country country and i was like, what . Like i always considered myself a bit of an amateur historian so i was like where are these people . Who are they . How did it affect allies . How did it affect the coaches . I was curious to know the effect of his fist and i realized that is going to be an impossible task. So i started to think about all of the oneoff stories that id read and some of which ive written about young people who took the knee after Colin Kaepernick. Some of the a oneoff story about young one woman was kicked off the team for taking a knee. One young man who was disciplined by his coach, a team in detroit that it garbage thrown at them, like the stories that id written or id read i started think you know what, this is significant. I write about the intersection of sports and politics and of hundreds if not thousands of Young Athletes in this country took a knee after Colin Kaepernick we need to tell that story. So start the process of at the start of the pandemic of calling a lot of folks who were roughly around your age and this is one of the pluses of being at the start of the pandemic is sometimes its tough to get folks on the phone and actually have a conversation with them. They want to text, snapchat. People still snapchat . I dont know but okay, but so because of the pandemic people were at home. They were a little bit bored and their happy to talk to me. I started having these long conversations with young people who had taken a in the learnig about how it affected their lives, and thats where my head was. Im going to say this history from being forgotten but in the summer 2020 happens, the Police Murder of george floyd to get the largest protest in history of the United States in the summer of 2020. I went back and i called the dozens of people id interviewed up to that point and it was amazing to me that all of them were either in the streets were organizing people to get in the streets, and that really made me realize that while many roads may have led us to the sum of 2020, one of them runs straight for the athletic fields of the United States and that story is worth telling. Thats so powerful. In the book you definitely get a sense of that because it really is a collection of stories. Stories of the impact that Colin Kaepernick had on these individuals but also the impact of it on the own communities with various come all sorts of reactions i think you see throughout the book. One question i have to kind of follow up from that is, in the book its pretty much separated into three main parts looking at high school protest, College Protests and professional protests that followed Colin Kaepernick and am wondering why did you choose to segment it in that regard generational as opposed to maybe like the south or add reactions in good reactions . Woes that thought process like . Thats a great question and it was like a lot of thought went into okay how am i going to organize all of these stories that in getting a sort of a catchall. Once word got up is doing this book people start reaching out to me saying my cousin took a knee. Can you talk to them . There was all of this swirling around like how should a properly organize this. One of the things a sorry on my first thought was a guy can what you said like should i do this by region . Should i go blue state red state . Should i go world urban . I realize so many of the stories transcended that, or you could say maybe transcend isnt even the right word but the connective tissue between the story to me was so strong that it belied whether you in a red state or a blue state or anything like that and, frankly, some of those differentiations, our Mainstream Media nonsense because of a notice each of these red state blue state can be very diverse. After george floyd was murdered there were protests in all 50 states in the United States similarly like some of the reactions in nice cities have thought of as liberal and whatnot like seattle could be more vicious towards people taking an even say someone e doing it in a Rural Community in georgia, like it depended on so many factors in terms of the backlash against people had received. I went High School College and pro because i really started thinking that are very distinct and specific challenges that a High School Student with face, a College Athlete scholarship would face, and then a professional athlete, like three different very distinct realms. In high school we all know what it is, we all remember what its like. Youre making yourself heard. Theres a lot of courage because along with it. No one with favorite exceptions necessary want to stand out in high school or stand against the grain. I wanted to honor the specific courage for people who have been born after 9 11 and it really known nothing in this country other than a permanent kind of state of war and, of course, the pandemic, environmental catastrophe. I have a 17yearold daughter, so people people up and race under this tree specific set of circumstances i wanted to honor that. At the collegiate level youre dealing with scholarships, dealing with a coach who could cut off the team, scholarships a lot of schools are only renewed on an annual basis. A lot of pressure can be applied to your financial aid, to all sorts of factors relative to play sports. I had to honor that kind of a specific set of challenges. Then at the professional level, were talking paychecks. Were talking collusion against you if you dare speak out. Another very specific set of challenges, the kind of challenges that really hit Colin Kaepernick right in the face after he took a knee. I wanted to be specifically honor and extrapolate off those very, very different set of generational circumstances. Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense and even as im reading the book you see other ways of categorizing and thinking about separating the things that you weave throughout the high school, college and pro categorization really well. One of his other categorization steny at me as a writ was the fact that not everyone who protested was playing the same sport, right . Like Colin Kaepernick is a Football Player and a lot of the examples like light of the bad our Football Players that look to him as inspiration especially other lacked males. As you go through the book you see black women in college, ivy leagues were cheerleaders also taking a stance that Colin Kaepernick did people doing different forms of resistance, so whether it is a knee or sitting down putting the fist up. Im curious like the sport and the general aspect, like what are some of the trends you saw depended on whether or not someone was a Football Player or a cheerleader, one of the questions will get to later like wnba . Wow, and another great question. This is, and folk should know that i dont know what these questions are so im just responding off the top of the dome. Theres some very, very serious set of inquiries here so let me try to take that on in terms of the different sports and whatnot. Im using the word on her a lot partly because i so much respect for the people that are interviewed and if you like a sense of real connection with them at this point. After having called them, we called them during the protest of 2020 come just theres a set of really just like a tightness there, that has enriched my life tremendously. Its maybe former optimistic that it was when i started this book honestly about the future just talking to these folks. One of the things i wanted to do was honor the breadth of the experience that existed because i made a book just about Football Players. That would be an effective historical lie because i be safe heres the effect that involves men, involves young men and involves football. Its not just a football story. It spread to so many different sports. I had to make a point to honor the confirmation of women. Because women so often get, particularly black woman, get written out of the history books. This is a case for like with the black lives Matter Movement in many cases black women are the backbone of this struggle pushing it forward. We could talk about the whole wnba proceeding Colin Kaepernick taking a knee just to give another layer to the role that women have played in this struggle. One of the things i i found th to get your question is, i found that are stereotypes arent very helpful is what i found. Like people might think well, i bet he high school womens subtlety would be more supportive than a mans Football Team, or Something Like that because it would be more of a culture of community in womens sports than mens sports. I found doing this book that when were talking about racial inequity and Police Violence, people do want to hear that, the secretive knives come out. If people dont want to hear what you have to say in this country, the response can be very brutal. One of the Common Threads in the book is really this specter of violence as a response to what is a nonviolent act of civil disobedience, and to me thats a stunning window into this country, even larger. Like it doesnt matter if you are a softball player in one part of the country or a youth Football Player in oman texas. Its like if you are beaumont, texas. If youre challenging the status quo, challenging the way White Supremacy works in this country, and people are not going to just agree to disagree, or people are not going to say you are making good Point Committee i should at least listen to you and your you out. In some cases people do say that and there are stories of people who are actually changed through these protests. But in other cases the response is not only do i not want to hear what you have to say but im going to respond violently to that. I feel like what all these Young Athletes went through from 20162020 was kind of like the canary in the coal mine, you know, the warning of everything youre seeing right now with regards to socalled Critical Race Theory and the idea of teaching about Structural Racism in schools. We got such a sneak preview around these kneeling protests about how certain segment of this population will respond if you dare raise up these flags against Structural Racism. Yeah and i think it reminds me of, well, im a student as you know, a history major specifically studied the history of social change and social movements. One of the most basic stories are the most i guess profound and wellknown stories of nonviolent protest come from the Civil Rights Era and mlk and a lot of what you find is they use nonviolence knowing specifically that it would cause of violent reaction from the white southerners or whatever audience was a and that violent attack on nonviolent people would be a spectacle enough to get other people outside of the community on their side. In a lot of ways its almost like making yourself a martyr in a small way in a lot of cases in the own temerity to make a larger statement about the fact like all im doing is kneeling or raising a fast and its causing this reaction. So what else can you look at . As you say over time, like we find nonviolent protest can turn into other forms of protest the special at Something Like george floyd were a lot of communities that was the straw that broke the camels back. Like you say the canary song, just the warnings after so many years, like if it still doesnt work you see what we have like what we had last summer with the Racial Justice uprising riots which i think its a very interesting sort of dynamic, a cycle of nonviolent to like increasing frustration in communities of color against whats happening. Im curious from before you ask the question let me just say, you said some stuff i would love to respond to, you made some amazing points. I get three bullet points in my brain based on what you said. The first is i i just came bak from minneapolis today, and you go to george floyd square, and one of the murals that is there is a huge mural of Colin Kaepernick taking an knee, and its chilling and very moving because implicit in presenting that over where George Floyds body lay is this idea okay, we tried expressing this in the most peaceful possible terms, that theres a problem with Police Violence in this country and racism, and that was ignored, or ever responded to with hostility and violence. You have to listen to people when theyre stepping forward with their concerns in a society, or youre going to reap the whirlwind at some point. The silver right, you mention the Civil Rights Movement. Two quick things about that quick parallels to this Kaepernick Movement we seen of the past five years. The first is anybody who is watched eyes on the prize knows the part of all the civil rights activist who speak about the fact that emmett till, the lynching of emmett till in mississippi was something that changed their lives and it was like like a scar they just could not be erased, and it informed that they need to be part of the struggle Colin Kaepernick<\/a> took five is go. We witness the mass masterl movement that is taken shape since then and we saw about the courage to stand up as an athlete takes and the stakes at play. This book reflects on all of that. Its about the politics of sports and impact of sports on politics and its about the players, cross generations and level inspired by using the platform of the field or court to fight police brutality, injustice and racism. The program tonight as part of a series of discussions connected to the center for history [inaudible] which dives dies deeply ie history of black led protests. All of its many facets by going to the link in the chat. I suspect that this will prompt many of you to want to explore this book further. We will also include in the chat to the website of the local brooklyn bookstore, the community bookstore, so you can click and learn more about the kaepernick effect. A few final notes in that i will happily handed off. You have the option to engage closed captioning, you can simply click that at the bottom of your screen, and finally we would like to share your questions. Type it into the q a box also at the bottom of your screen. All right. Now, let me briefly introduce date and khalil and invite them when they ducked out young that digital curtain and handed off to them. Briefly because i could go on but im not, dave zirin is the Sports Editor<\/a> of the nation, a columnist for the progress and the host of the podcast. His books include a peoples history of sports in the unitedd states, game over, that sports and connect. Davis been a regular guest on msnbc, cnn and espn, also named one of the most [inaudible] elected the first black student body president in jails 318 year history. Hes currently in a special moment of history. Has approximate happening followers across his Tiktok Instagram<\/a> platforms where he, its about history and our society. He has worked in sports and popculture website and authored about Racial Equity<\/a> in the times, the Washington Post<\/a> among others. Thank you both so much for being here and im going handed over to you. Thank you so much for the introduction. Dave, how are you . Im greatly. Great. Im so happy to be here. I such warm feelings for brooklyn, for the society, so this is just everything for me. Im so grateful for you to make the time to visit. Same. Im for a burr my mom is from bed sty, born and enrages sa great sort of return to where shes from but i think if you want to get started we could jump right into the questions if that sounds good to you. It does except i live in maryland now. Where did you grow up . Really . Im in montgomery county. After i am right now. I was born and raised in germantown, maryland,. Im sitting here in tacoma park maryland. Wow, wow. There you go. Thats amazing. Shout out to maryland. How about we jump into it . I think the first question on the audiences mind and a guest mind before to read the book, id love to hear in your own words what is the kaepernick affect . The kaepernick the fact is the Chain Reaction<\/a> that took place after Colin Kaepernick<\/a> first set during the anthem and then took a need in august and september of 2016. But i think the best way to describe the effect is just something about how he came up with this idea that want to spend a big chunk of my life working on this book and talking to people and in of income and whatnot. Like it started when i was talking in 1968 olympian john carlos is a famously raised his fist on the stand in mexico city, and john a couple years ago looked at me and he just said, you know, they come after raise my fist in mexico city a tongue of young people starting a track meet around the country country and i was like, what . Like i always considered myself a bit of an amateur historian so i was like where are these people . Who are they . How did it affect allies . How did it affect the coaches . I was curious to know the effect of his fist and i realized that is going to be an impossible task. So i started to think about all of the oneoff stories that id read and some of which ive written about young people who took the knee after Colin Kaepernick<\/a>. Some of the a oneoff story about young one woman was kicked off the team for taking a knee. One young man who was disciplined by his coach, a team in detroit that it garbage thrown at them, like the stories that id written or id read i started think you know what, this is significant. I write about the intersection of sports and politics and of hundreds if not thousands of Young Athletes<\/a> in this country took a knee after Colin Kaepernick<\/a> we need to tell that story. So start the process of at the start of the pandemic of calling a lot of folks who were roughly around your age and this is one of the pluses of being at the start of the pandemic is sometimes its tough to get folks on the phone and actually have a conversation with them. They want to text, snapchat. People still snapchat . I dont know but okay, but so because of the pandemic people were at home. They were a little bit bored and their happy to talk to me. I started having these long conversations with young people who had taken a in the learnig about how it affected their lives, and thats where my head was. Im going to say this history from being forgotten but in the summer 2020 happens, the Police Murder<\/a> of george floyd to get the largest protest in history of the United States<\/a> in the summer of 2020. I went back and i called the dozens of people id interviewed up to that point and it was amazing to me that all of them were either in the streets were organizing people to get in the streets, and that really made me realize that while many roads may have led us to the sum of 2020, one of them runs straight for the athletic fields of the United States<\/a> and that story is worth telling. Thats so powerful. In the book you definitely get a sense of that because it really is a collection of stories. Stories of the impact that Colin Kaepernick<\/a> had on these individuals but also the impact of it on the own communities with various come all sorts of reactions i think you see throughout the book. One question i have to kind of follow up from that is, in the book its pretty much separated into three main parts looking at high school protest, College Protests<\/a> and professional protests that followed Colin Kaepernick<\/a> and am wondering why did you choose to segment it in that regard generational as opposed to maybe like the south or add reactions in good reactions . Woes that thought process like . Thats a great question and it was like a lot of thought went into okay how am i going to organize all of these stories that in getting a sort of a catchall. Once word got up is doing this book people start reaching out to me saying my cousin took a knee. Can you talk to them . There was all of this swirling around like how should a properly organize this. One of the things a sorry on my first thought was a guy can what you said like should i do this by region . Should i go blue state red state . Should i go world urban . I realize so many of the stories transcended that, or you could say maybe transcend isnt even the right word but the connective tissue between the story to me was so strong that it belied whether you in a red state or a blue state or anything like that and, frankly, some of those differentiations, our Mainstream Media<\/a> nonsense because of a notice each of these red state blue state can be very diverse. After george floyd was murdered there were protests in all 50 states in the United States<\/a> similarly like some of the reactions in nice cities have thought of as liberal and whatnot like seattle could be more vicious towards people taking an even say someone e doing it in a Rural Community<\/a> in georgia, like it depended on so many factors in terms of the backlash against people had received. I went High School College<\/a> and pro because i really started thinking that are very distinct and specific challenges that a High School Student<\/a> with face, a College Athlete<\/a> scholarship would face, and then a professional athlete, like three different very distinct realms. In high school we all know what it is, we all remember what its like. Youre making yourself heard. Theres a lot of courage because along with it. No one with favorite exceptions necessary want to stand out in high school or stand against the grain. I wanted to honor the specific courage for people who have been born after 9 11 and it really known nothing in this country other than a permanent kind of state of war and, of course, the pandemic, environmental catastrophe. I have a 17yearold daughter, so people people up and race under this tree specific set of circumstances i wanted to honor that. At the collegiate level youre dealing with scholarships, dealing with a coach who could cut off the team, scholarships a lot of schools are only renewed on an annual basis. A lot of pressure can be applied to your financial aid, to all sorts of factors relative to play sports. I had to honor that kind of a specific set of challenges. Then at the professional level, were talking paychecks. Were talking collusion against you if you dare speak out. Another very specific set of challenges, the kind of challenges that really hit Colin Kaepernick<\/a> right in the face after he took a knee. I wanted to be specifically honor and extrapolate off those very, very different set of generational circumstances. Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense and even as im reading the book you see other ways of categorizing and thinking about separating the things that you weave throughout the high school, college and pro categorization really well. One of his other categorization steny at me as a writ was the fact that not everyone who protested was playing the same sport, right . Like Colin Kaepernick<\/a> is a Football Player<\/a> and a lot of the examples like light of the bad our Football Player<\/a>s that look to him as inspiration especially other lacked males. As you go through the book you see black women in college, ivy leagues were cheerleaders also taking a stance that Colin Kaepernick<\/a> did people doing different forms of resistance, so whether it is a knee or sitting down putting the fist up. Im curious like the sport and the general aspect, like what are some of the trends you saw depended on whether or not someone was a Football Player<\/a> or a cheerleader, one of the questions will get to later like wnba . Wow, and another great question. This is, and folk should know that i dont know what these questions are so im just responding off the top of the dome. Theres some very, very serious set of inquiries here so let me try to take that on in terms of the different sports and whatnot. Im using the word on her a lot partly because i so much respect for the people that are interviewed and if you like a sense of real connection with them at this point. After having called them, we called them during the protest of 2020 come just theres a set of really just like a tightness there, that has enriched my life tremendously. Its maybe former optimistic that it was when i started this book honestly about the future just talking to these folks. One of the things i wanted to do was honor the breadth of the experience that existed because i made a book just about Football Player<\/a>s. That would be an effective historical lie because i be safe heres the effect that involves men, involves young men and involves football. Its not just a football story. It spread to so many different sports. I had to make a point to honor the confirmation of women. Because women so often get, particularly black woman, get written out of the history books. This is a case for like with the black lives Matter Movement<\/a> in many cases black women are the backbone of this struggle pushing it forward. We could talk about the whole wnba proceeding Colin Kaepernick<\/a> taking a knee just to give another layer to the role that women have played in this struggle. One of the things i i found th to get your question is, i found that are stereotypes arent very helpful is what i found. Like people might think well, i bet he high school womens subtlety would be more supportive than a mans Football Team<\/a>, or Something Like<\/a> that because it would be more of a culture of community in womens sports than mens sports. I found doing this book that when were talking about racial inequity and Police Violence<\/a>, people do want to hear that, the secretive knives come out. If people dont want to hear what you have to say in this country, the response can be very brutal. One of the Common Threads<\/a> in the book is really this specter of violence as a response to what is a nonviolent act of civil disobedience, and to me thats a stunning window into this country, even larger. Like it doesnt matter if you are a softball player in one part of the country or a youth Football Player<\/a> in oman texas. Its like if you are beaumont, texas. If youre challenging the status quo, challenging the way White Supremacy<\/a> works in this country, and people are not going to just agree to disagree, or people are not going to say you are making good Point Committee<\/a> i should at least listen to you and your you out. In some cases people do say that and there are stories of people who are actually changed through these protests. But in other cases the response is not only do i not want to hear what you have to say but im going to respond violently to that. I feel like what all these Young Athletes<\/a> went through from 20162020 was kind of like the canary in the coal mine, you know, the warning of everything youre seeing right now with regards to socalled Critical Race Theory<\/a> and the idea of teaching about Structural Racism<\/a> in schools. We got such a sneak preview around these kneeling protests about how certain segment of this population will respond if you dare raise up these flags against Structural Racism<\/a>. Yeah and i think it reminds me of, well, im a student as you know, a history major specifically studied the history of social change and social movements. One of the most basic stories are the most i guess profound and wellknown stories of nonviolent protest come from the Civil Rights Era<\/a> and mlk and a lot of what you find is they use nonviolence knowing specifically that it would cause of violent reaction from the white southerners or whatever audience was a and that violent attack on nonviolent people would be a spectacle enough to get other people outside of the community on their side. In a lot of ways its almost like making yourself a martyr in a small way in a lot of cases in the own temerity to make a larger statement about the fact like all im doing is kneeling or raising a fast and its causing this reaction. So what else can you look at . As you say over time, like we find nonviolent protest can turn into other forms of protest the special at Something Like<\/a> george floyd were a lot of communities that was the straw that broke the camels back. Like you say the canary song, just the warnings after so many years, like if it still doesnt work you see what we have like what we had last summer with the Racial Justice<\/a> uprising riots which i think its a very interesting sort of dynamic, a cycle of nonviolent to like increasing frustration in communities of color against whats happening. Im curious from before you ask the question let me just say, you said some stuff i would love to respond to, you made some amazing points. I get three bullet points in my brain based on what you said. The first is i i just came bak from minneapolis today, and you go to george floyd square, and one of the murals that is there is a huge mural of Colin Kaepernick<\/a> taking an knee, and its chilling and very moving because implicit in presenting that over where George Floyds<\/a> body lay is this idea okay, we tried expressing this in the most peaceful possible terms, that theres a problem with Police Violence<\/a> in this country and racism, and that was ignored, or ever responded to with hostility and violence. You have to listen to people when theyre stepping forward with their concerns in a society, or youre going to reap the whirlwind at some point. The silver right, you mention the Civil Rights Movement<\/a>. Two quick things about that quick parallels to this Kaepernick Movement<\/a> we seen of the past five years. The first is anybody who is watched eyes on the prize knows the part of all the civil rights activist who speak about the fact that emmett till, the lynching of emmett till in mississippi was something that changed their lives and it was like like a scar they just could not be erased, and it informed that they need to be part of the struggle Going Forward<\/a> no matter what i found in talking with a lot of these young people that Trayvon Martin<\/a> was really the emmett till of this generation, and that was removing and surprising to me that every Single Person<\/a> i spoke to practically said, they said the name trayvon more than they said the name Colin Kaepernick<\/a>. Theyre speaking about what informed the protest and maybe think about the fact that like Trayvon Martin<\/a>, he was killed in 2012. Thats nine years ago. If youre 20 that means you it happen when you are 11. You were 11 you are old enough to get whats happening but also young enough to ask the question why does the world have to be this way . That really i think stuck with people in a big way. The other Civil Rights Movement<\/a> parallel that comes to mind is when you think of Something Like<\/a> the montgomery bus boycott, this isnt an issue about respect and about jim crow on the bus lines. This is. Thats what people are fighting event. The powers that be in montgomery not to making the powers that be throughout the jim crow south sought as a much bigger threat, like if there talk about bus lines today who knows what theyll be talking about tomorrow. This is like pulling the string on a sweater that similar to Colin Kaepernick<\/a> and all these young people who took a knee like yes, they were doing it for Racial Equity<\/a>. Yes, they were doing get against Police Violence<\/a> what of the reasons why the reaction was so incredibly vicious in some cases was because implicit in taking that knee is a statement, especially during the anthem that theres a gap between what this country says it represents and then the lived experiences of the many people in this country, and that is a very intense challenge to put towards power in the United States<\/a>. That really resonates with me. I think i was in eighth grade. Im not sure how old i was in terms of the number when the Trayvon Martin<\/a> case was publicized and came to light. Even before that i actually had heard of emmett till. I remember hearing this for my parents at some point, and i think that was in the 50s and my grandmother was in the 40s. I think she is older than emmett till so i i always had that ie back of my mind, like modernday lynchings, right . They are similar in kind, different and like the realities i guess but seeing a lot of those things are replicated today is very jarring. White after Trayvon Martin<\/a> i with you like it was successions of killings like over the years. There was tamir rice soon after that and then mike brown and freddie gray. I was in baltimore and 2015. That was in maryland, a lot more protests around that and then sandra bland and Philando Castile<\/a> anthologies, all at lot of cases just happened short time span anything it was so frustrating and really heartbreaking. There was a poll that i saw right behind the pandemic, so was number one before the pandemic but like the cause that shapes our generation was a black lives Matter Movement<\/a>. Whether it was positive or negative reaction the thing that shaped things the most, like interesting and can increase to see but also and made a lot of sense especially seeing the impact back and they come probably one of the largest thing sews on peoples minds was a domestic issue in 60. Definitely. Im really appreciative of you mentioning those cases and the way they shake people. Social media is very much a part of this story because when people, especially in summer 2016, when alton sterling, terrence crutcher, Philando Castile<\/a> all killed and the videos going viral and people seeing them and then the response by so many people in power and in politics are saying well, the problem is social media. Its like no, the problem is Police Violence<\/a>. Like people saying Colin Kaepernick<\/a> a a polarizing and taking any is polarizing. Im just come my head is, no, whats polarizing is Police Violence<\/a>, which polarizing is racism. Thats whats polarizing. We need to talk about polarization. You have to keep in mind if you drill into the pulse about people taking any, particularly Colin Kaepernick<\/a> ssa much that america is polarized. Its White America<\/a> that polarized because black and brown folks probably support the right to protest during the anthem, particularly around issues of racial inequity. Broadly supported it is among particularly like white families and sometimes a people to disagree like some say yes, this is appropriate, to do something and others were absolutely repulsed at the thought of anybody protesting either at a a sporting event or during the anthem but thats the power of taking that need doping it is so ubiquitous. Khalil, if you and i took a knee like at the maryland state fair or if we took a knee at the ravens game, or if we took any of the super bowl during the anthem. Everybody would immediately know why we are taking that need thats the power of it is that people see it in the know your issue a direct challenge the status quo. Thats really one of the things that drove the people who did want to see off the deep end. Yeah, and to mention taking any unlike everyone would understand anything especially after last year you saw a lot of like symbolic gestures, in my opinion, everyone has their own, but like the Senate Democrats<\/a> taking a knee or very recently some ceo, cap member who, but it took in the like in support of black lives matter something to happen. I think what was happening at the border with the haitian migrants or just taking a knee is like a Racial Justice<\/a> protest. Im curious to hear your thoughts about like how is the taking of the knee been diluted over time and what ways have that symbolism been beneficial but also using a a negative ps i think it was a part of the book where you highlight or maybe was in the forward, highlight like out taking any is also the stance the killed george floyd and lot of ways. What is the different meanings of the symbolism, however many years after Colin Kaepernick<\/a> did it . First and foremost the power of that juxtaposition, i saw that protests i went to throughout the summer 2020. It didnt take an american studies degree from columbia for people to realize this is really like a tale of two knees basically of Colin Kaepernick<\/a>s knee which is a nonviolent expression of the desire for social change and then Derek Chauvin<\/a> was knee on the neck of george floyd and these two knees say so much about where we are as a country and about what we view as acceptable and not acceptable. There are people who still defend the murder of george floyd and excoriate Colin Kaepernick<\/a> for taking that knee, and that to me as like a fun house mirror of morality. There is this differentiated reality in this country in terms of what we see as acceptable, as part of human life. Thats something we need to actually drill down on and discuss. The other thing you asked me about though which is so important is this idea of appropriation and watering it down. Thats a feature of this country. Theres in a malcolm x postae stamp, for goodness sakes. I remember, im going to send all but went public enemy and chuck d said 1989 most of most of my heroes dont appear on the stamps. That was in 1989 that was a true statement but our icons of radicalism, our icons of people are fighting for direct change, they get appropriate because they cant be destroyed or forgotten. Like you cant make this country forget about malcolm x. You cant make young people forget about that history of tommie smith and john carlos. What you do instead is you appropriate it and sell it back to people as consumable come something to sell. Anything to make it safe, anything to extract its political k9s so you dont bite at a system thats treating people unfairly. There is been that effort as well with the knee. I think nancy pelosi and the kente cloth is something that is worth dwelling upon a little bit. The one thing though that i see is that when it comes to the knee, context is everything. I just got an email last week i got a high school where the Football Team<\/a> took a knee and people in the stands took in the because of both racist and homophobic snapchat that were going around the school. So this was, it was black lives matter flags alongside lgbtq flags in the stands, People Holding<\/a> them up high, taking a knee. In a situation like that, thats really powerful and thats a tremendous statement of antioppression in a very, very challenging set of circumstances, a High School Football<\/a> game, much to the chagrin of the administration and of the parents and all of this. And antiracist because they want to appeal the generation v or Something Like<\/a> that and get those dollars, thats a different circumstance one of them things it gives them power is risk. And when we observe it from a distance. You interesting that she said the black lives matter being flung together into context when people have something similar in athletic protest. All of the interviews that youve had which is the most memorable and standout and why . On one level and thinking of which interview hits me the most in my heart, all my goodness like choosing between favorites, i treasure all these relationships so much. The one that i carry with me is the case of rodney junior, there is so much of what he went through, this is a Football Player<\/a> in brunswick ohio as suburb outside of cleveland. His family moves from a rough neighborhood in cleveland to the suburban brunswick person indicates the better Public School<\/a> education his printer change induced things the right way of the American Dream<\/a> you cannot move up. Here is rodney asked engineer he did a community where he faces open racism and all sorts of racial at other people and when he says i find that offensive they look at him like hes half off the beam saying what you talking about your one of the good ones, youre a teammate it sees other ones thats the problem away in addition hes out of school where he feels like he has to tiptoe through raindrops, it made me sad when he said he did not want to go to parties, not because he was concerned about himself but because he was worried about being around some of his classmates when their drinking and their tongues get lucinda what the heck are they going to say to him. He is in a very difficult box already and then the videos come out and the memories like Trayvon Martin<\/a>, the videos we discussed his connecting his own personal experience with experiences he sees on social media. He just wants to do something. He has no idea what that is. And then Colin Kaepernick<\/a> take cindy and its like eureka and the light bulb goes off, yes thats something i can do and i would argue you study social movements and social struggle, this is Colin Kaepernick<\/a>s great gift to the grand history of social movements. Is that gesture, a gesture that you can replicate and do and Everybody Knows<\/a> what it is that youre talking about. As soon as rodney asked cc that knee and clicks with him that he could do that to. He takes any and when he does in most of the stories way found there like wow the real story is after he gets taken and he starts feeling like a support dry get stabbed in the back or in the front by teammate or get solidarity and support. Are there teachers who papillion the back and tell me john carlos in the hallway, hey is john carlos which happened in some cases or are there concerns that teachers in particular professors are giving bad grades because they object to what you are doing on the sporting field which caused one of the people to transfer out of school because she was absolute convinced that they were trying to push her out through her grades, it must be a nightmare if you think about what that would be to go through that. , rodney went through all the places. And there is two things, one despite he has no regrets whatsoever. Hes very proud of what he did. The second thing summer 2020 happens and we have these protest he felt a sense of vindication about being on the right side of history which i would argue one of the most empowering things a person can feel when they feel like i lived through something as bearing the fruit. That definitely i would say he 70 from ohio, and just seeing how that is so important a lot of people hope to make an athletic world, thats a very powerful he didnt know exactly what to do to localize or perform the days he felt after watching orsino the Different Cases<\/a> and thats his gesture and a template to follow along with. I want to transition to a different topic. A lot of times publicly the was controversy between two celebrities Colin Kaepernick<\/a> and jayz who is from new york, brooklyn i believe. That gesture was an impactful thing to get communities and people of color and that people and specifically in the nation economic power through the push of ownership. Im curious to hear what do you think that is with the Colin Kaepernick<\/a>, how do you think about those two things . I think of the sean carter effect is primarily benefiting sean carter while Colin Kaepernick<\/a> is something that benefits the masses. I would say this beware anyone who ever says protest is not enough. To me we need more practice. Ideas for the world that we want to live in arise out of protest. When people like jayz say things like the times are done, we need to transition out of protest, the releasing we need to transition out of struggle and as Frederick Douglass<\/a> said with struggle theres no progress in. You need the struggle for the fires that the change that we want to see. Someone has asked me emerging comedy thing jayz sold out, i want to be like no, he didnt sell that at all, yet understand hes a billionaire. He is not selling, hes acting in accordance in society and a strained angle towards by the denver broncos. If he wants to do that and become the first black of the nfl, more power to him. But what that does for the family of george floyd i do not know. But that doesnt communities that deal with Police Occupation<\/a> i do not know it does not do a lot we allow Colin Kaepernick<\/a> was doing in inspiring people gutfeld actualized themselves. There is so much more that comes out of that historically then just saying we need to have an action plan that we go to to the police. That tends to lead to a group of leaders in the movement and giving the responsibility at basically negotiating the terms of peoples oppression instead of having the masses of people come together. This confusion comes with how unfortunately too many people have history in this country. It is a collection of great men almost always white men very rarely women who are these Exceptional People<\/a> its almost like they come down from planet awesome and created change and we are all observers, were not participants in the fight, were observers of the great people. That history is attractive to people for two reasons, one we live in a celebrity culture and anytime individuals expose its almost like honey in that regard. Its also because that history can be very different powering and can view a great level of captivity and people. What was so important about the Colin Kaepernick<\/a> affect gives people a sense of action, action is critical that theyll get from point a to point b and have a more just society than the one we live in people say all he did was take any, thats not all he did, we had a discussion of Colin Kaepernick<\/a> but even if that was all he did, the effect of it means so much more too so many more people than if jayz get the keys to the castle. Thats very interesting. And get a right my thesis, my senior thesis on jayz wildlife leave. The controversy in all of his own theories were changed. It reminded me of speaking like metaphors, analogies to civil rights abacus and its a conversation between w eb, making the committee and the washington side were economically advanced improving ways their ownership and economic power, it was more political power right to vote, protest and all of those things and of course other things that i disagree upon, im starting to see jayz, summatives albums advocate are small things that individuals can do to save wealth or certain things which had a lot of holes and issues especially within the Africanamerican Community<\/a> and discrimination along with class and Colin Kaepernick<\/a> provide the protestant political movement. In the analogy to segmenting the two strategies 2d conceptualize. I would say first and foremost the voice has been very strongly been proven right by history. And in the book or to washington model, put on your buckets where your standing and build where you are, that could benefit a small minority of people but it doesnt do anything for the mass population. It might segment a small group to enjoy the streets of the system that we live in but is not going to do anything is going to exacerbate quality from dramatic inequality. We need massive antipoverty programs in the United States<\/a>. Thats not what jayz represents preguidi mass movements for instructional racism, that is not what jayz is trained to build. I think we can fuse together the movements of political and economic power as long as we realize one of the walls against achieving true economic power is actually political regression. I think washington and his descendents really missed it. How do you expect to build black power in the broadest possible sense, not in terms of a few people but in the broadest possible sense as long as politically look what is happening right now the antiCritical Race Theory<\/a> or whether the Voting Rights<\/a> oppression, the gerrymandering, these are only just political attacks on our Political Rights<\/a> it affects peoples ability to be economically mobile in society. We have to be able to seize these two things. Ill say this calling, in these camps forgot all, one thing we stressed this idea as financial literacy, theres sessions that they talk with young people and they get experts to talk with young people about things like like nutritional literacy, ill never forget being in chicago. There was a couple of hundred at youth, the question came up how many people here have eaten food three times in the last week, just about everybody raises their hands in the second question how many of you have someone in your family whos had colon cancer. All of a sudden somebody people raise their hands. , on the selfdetermination and the food that we eat it is a political site and is also an economic fight because we have to be able to afford is also an economic question in addition to being a political question. I think the fusion of these two issues is critical by any liberation politics. Its interesting in chicago there is nutritional programs and thats one of the places where they have a program and also where the police had the black Panther Program<\/a> and i have a tiktok on this. The food that was meant for children after reading it which is completely insane. It goes to show that these things are resistant throughout time and they are believed to come back. How would you react to that . That is so powerful that panter showed this example. If youre trying to build economic race the police are still going to come in, any challenge to racism is going to be a very intense battle regardless. avid economic fight and political fight in a lot of ways thats a legacy to have ways which you can build up in community and in ways you can challenge inequality and capitalism or you will end up in a situation that will lead to the defamation of not just the struggle but the entire communities. I agree. Was gone a lot in the past but presentday future leads to the book i was reading it when there is a policy in the book in the beginning and the interest, talk about things that help that happen yesterday. I cannot believe this is published in printed and sent to me in that time span. It feels like George Floyds<\/a> and other things that have happened are so timely. My question for you in writing this is a story, its not over the Colin Kaepernick<\/a> affect is still inviting people, it cannot be in the book the book is early on, how did you know when to wrap it up and when the story cut was complete and. Thats ultimate question from that the painters question, when you take a step back away from the portrait. How do you know that stroke is done and the incredible fear that comes with knowing when to put the brush down it doesnt belong to you anymore. That is the moment, ive written other books in that moment where you hit return and descended into your editor or publisher and you know your baby is no longer yours. Other hands are going to shape it. Almost always for the better. Itll only be what you put together. The last question. This is ongoing and were gonna see more protests in the years to come. To me the summer of 2020 was such an important moment in history and the history for Racial Justice<\/a> in the history of protest in the history of struggle, my goodness protest in all 50 states, that never happens during the Civil Rights Movement<\/a>. In the same concentrated period of time in the searing team will be divided. Red state or blue state is a false division the idea that we had protest in idaho and San Francisco<\/a> around the same issue about the same man who was killed in minneapolis obviously that speaks the people are upset ways that is far transcend to what occurred with george floyd and not even other viral videos or anything like that but they saw a reflection of their own lived experience of what happened to george floyd thats the only reason why there would ever be protest at large and that intense. To me in the aftermath of the protest and also thinking about if we can get the book out i appreciate them for doing this. If we can get the book out in fall of 2021 the anniversary of when Colin Kaepernick<\/a> with the anthem and started nfl season, why not. That is a good point by which we start the discussion while being extremely humble about the story been an ongoing story. Its important its a presentday story. We share the history majors and having that sense of what happened in the past, the past becomes dry and defecated, theyre not applying it to the present and using as a way to understand the future. I agree. Thank you so much, were gonna transition into the audio. Its about that time a few that are going to answer. I will start where i want to take things up. How did daves social, political and cultural views in the intersection of sports come about how do they receive in the sports world with anyone else viewing what you do. For me there was a basketball player for the Denver Nuggets<\/a> who makes a decision to not standard the National Anthem<\/a> and asked why he said the flag may be a symbol of freedom and democracy to some but its depression and turning to others. I am somebody who live lifes on two parallel tracks i was very much into history and all the stuff that youre into like the history of social protest and how it changed the world and people the selfactualization of the individual was something i was very into, the self emancipation of the individual. I was really into sports. Obsessed but to me being into sports not knowing all the statistics on the back of the Baseball Card<\/a> it did not mean the history of people like muhammad ali, billie jean king, tommy smith, john carlos and ill never forget on espn one of the talking heads refused to come up for the anthem they said they might see themselves as an activist athlete, my head exploded what is an activist athlete i did not know what that was. I went to the library i started reading the book my roommate was in a class called the history of the black athlete taught by professor and i just saw the professor yesterday when is a minneapolis thats why i went to college i was picking out my school. I just have to say hes 87 years old, sharpens attack at the event and he said to me i love the work youre doing and i said your class change my life and he said you did not take my class and i believe he didnt remember that. I said i didnt take a class but my remake didnt i read all his books and i was speaking to your class and he was so pleased to hear that, professor is in my heart as i do all of this work. Thats how i got into it, are the other people in sports doing this, there is a new generation of sportswriters who were looking at this as a more political view there is a profound change in the last ten years young people who dont want to write about the strikes and the punk context in which they take place there dedicated positions to be in sports culture and politics writers in places like the Washington Post<\/a>, usa today and a host of other favors obviously it opened itself up for that. I started doing this 20 years ago i had to tell you the landscape is profoundly different than when i started. That is great, thank you for sharing that is inspiring we will probably to take your professors name or a book recommendation, that would be all get another question, please write the name and the panelist. Im just gonna write my name. I just want to make sure the audience has that. It was great to see them on campus, one of the terrific professors. Great to see you. He was wearing a facemask is a good trouble on. Asked me another question, the black National Anthem<\/a> at the nfl games has gone to complaints from people from many backgrounds and viewpoints. The true innovation for this position and how do you feel this move is better and do you think this will last . Yes, thats a great claim, this is about care instinct. The nfl realizes what Colin Kaepernick<\/a> did, he opened up the battle all over the place and you cant put the mind back in the bottle, the genie is out of the lamp in terms of players protesting in the nfl had to adjust and figured out how to do with the fact that the entire league rest on a profound contradiction. You dont have the nfl without a deep deep sense of racial and labor discipline. That has to be maintained to have a National Football<\/a> league, how else do you have a league no black franchise owners were 70 of the players are black and as a 100 injury rates. Contracts are not guaranteed in a typical career is only three years. Thats a very rough set of material circumstances and its a very rough objective reality into depends on this degree of vertical authoritarianism and making sure that Everybody Knows<\/a> their place and everybody does what theyre supposed to do. Here is Colin Kaepernick<\/a> living the famous muhammad ali quote who said i dont have to be what you want me too be, there is a danger in that and thats why said when we started the conversation this is about more than Police Violence<\/a> and racial inequity this is about who is supposed to lead and follow and Colin Kaepernick<\/a> and others turning on a ten. I view the plane of the National Black<\/a> anthem and put things like slogan like antiracism in the end zone and allows players to wear decals or start a social Justice Committee<\/a> inside of the nfl as their effort to corral the new consciousness that is taking place. And make sure its expressed through acceptable parameters that they can still control. Thats what its really all about at the end of the day. It is about control. Rate answer. Someone also asked is this being recorded do we have a copy, yes and there will be a recording after comes out as well. There was one more question that we will do that is interesting to me, you talked about mexico and 68 as a modern era protestant sports, are there any earlier significant protest in the sports world . Absolutely. This is why love sports history. Its an incredible lens to which to understand american history. Politics are baked into the cake of organized sports in this country this goes back to the 19th century. Its always been political rebels in sports, gaining back to the 1800s and the reason why sports rest on a huge contradiction, this included the reality of exclusion. When sports started in the 19th century and held up as being an incredible symbol of the United States<\/a>, a true meritocracy, anybody he was good at the sports can make it on the field. Anybody who tries hard enough will get in the game. It is a huge effort and ideological reproduction, the ideas of this country are reflected through sports to teach a young generation particular at that time a young generation of european immigrants that youre no longer polish or irish or italian, your american now, your american now and you can facilitate that through sports to the neurotoxicity, that inclusion narrative was a myth. The reality was exclusion women not allowed to play, black and brown folks go off to the side and make your own money if you want to but we do what is see and hear about it were not going to fund it, the history of sports has been despite for inclusion, despite the Playing Field<\/a> by marginalized groups to be heard and defined expression of their own lives in the sports world. In that regard sports is always been the expression used earlier to marry the coal mine usually struggles iraq through inclusion and breakout in the broader society. That is why when we talked with the Civil Rights Movement<\/a> were talking about Jackie Robinson<\/a> who comes in almost a full decade through the Civil Rights Movement<\/a>, he comes into Major League Baseball<\/a> by doctor kings at Boston University<\/a> for goodness sakes are muhammad ali coming out against the vietnam war and very few people in the country were against the vietnam war. We see these things reflected in sports in a very powerful manner and it can be an effective lens for teaching about the contradictions of the United States<\/a>. Thank you so much these are all the questions we can take. Im going to pass it back to marsha now. Before you go i have to say, that was fantastic ive done so many of these. And i enjoy doing this with you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this with me. I agree thank you for being here and thank you for writing the book, it was amazing i recommend everyone getting it from the local store the link that has been provided. Its a great lead. Sounds good. I want to thank you both. What a wide ranging connecting the dots mind blowing set of things you are able to talk about, i would think you and i want to thank all of you for being here tonight the program was recorded in is recorded and will post it tomorrow on the center for brooklyn history youtube channel. 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