Detect crime. But when we be more fruitful to say that what we can measure because weve never been able to measure deterrence as long as theres been criminology. If we stop looking at different racial categories and looked across the offending which unfortunately book argues that racism in the, Justice System but then at eight spends a lot of time saying that it is okay to think of black people as it dangerous or potentially dangerous. Guest that is an unjustified statement. Find one place in that book where state that. I say repeatedly that there are the majority of people in these communities are lawabiding, they need support, they are trying to do the right thing by their children. It has nothing to do with impugning black people of somehow all criminal. If you cannot live by the statistics, then you as a criminologist i think are not serving your profession very well. The statistics are what they are. New york city again, 90 of all shootings, this is not [inaudible] host isnt that projecting on all black. Guest know it is not. Why is it not possible to say that there is vastly disproportionate rates of criminal offenders without saying that all blacks are criminals. That is a complete non secular. Host let me ask this question. There is more to the identity of shooters than their race. Guest yes and what predicts it is singlefamily homes. You can talk to social scientists, they find in evitable to president obama talked about this and its fathers day, excuse me let me finish once. His 2008 fathers day speech. He did single out black fathers for not doing the right thing and being responsible to their children. He said if we are honest will admit that there is too many black fathers who are not supporting their children. But this is not exclusively absolutely look at the prison population and those men in there, overwhelmingly from singlefamily homes. The research that is been done on the consequences of being raised by single mothers does not look at race, looks at the fact that children of all races grew up without a father and above all of the community where males are not expected as a precondition to anything further to be responsible for their fathers, those children have a magnitude higher come about a five times higher chance of becoming juvenile delinquents and ending up in prison as an adult. So i would love to make it that an issue and lets stop talking about race and Start Talking about fathers because all kids need their father. Host and the date is shows that even whites who dont have fathers and their many of them as well have issues. Also doctor jones and the other single mothers who successfully raise their children to be lawabiding insulin probably would take offense. Guest well then they dont know statistics. There are not many heroic single mothers for doing the right thing. You would basically not to any statistics to serve your purpose. Host not true. Guest as obama says kids of growing up in Single Family families are 5 9 times greater risk of as a social scientist i think you live or die by data because that is going to show us trends and the problems we need to work on. Host it does, but because i was a sociologist before before i was a social scientist, one of the things we say is that all human beings are unique. Guest will let say that about Police Officers to. Host absolutely. Guest every Single Police officer youre not going to look at the officers race, were not going to look at the victims race were going to look at individual officers. Host so that is the one place we can reach consensus. When we have Police Tactics that blanket communities with various strategies what we know at least since 1972 that that theres a very small number of very active serious offenders that can be identified and who can be dealt with arguably without interfering with the liberty of interfering with the liberty of please tactics and targeting white spots. They pinpoint. [inaudible] host people in those spots are not engaged in criminology. We are actually at a time. Would you agree with the same at the police are required to perform their job in a humane humane way. Guest absolutely. Not just humane, they should be polite as a basic matter of common courtesy. Too often they develop gruff demeanors, they are unapproachable and you cannot get an answer out of them. That is what training should be focused on. How to maintain a courteous attitude towards the public and lets be honest, the cops face very difficult situations. Above all i will be on us in innercity neighborhoods where theres a legacy of of people throwing trash at them, pampers and whatnot off roofs, that is tough to do. But to maintain an open mind but i have not talked to an officer who said i am working for the good people of the community and they believe in those community. Host before rerun of the time i want to ask is it possible that the behavior some individual tops are what is making the police job more dangerous. For example, if we look at two cases that are older not in the book, we have five officers involved in the bell incident, one fires 31 times, if we look at the air canada situation seven officer standing around one is talking calmly to him before the other officer jumps on his back and starts to choke him which is contrary to the patrol guy and theres nothing the patrol guy says that you can choke a person. Guest officers need constant training and the use of force that was heartbreaking to watch for those men understandably there is something almost tragic or noble about his protest. Of course we need. Host because were about to run out of time in chicago you asked if i hated the police and he said i dont hit the police. I need the police. He said but, i dont know if i called the police for help which officers going to show up. The one who is going to help me or the one who is going to hurt me. What would beer take a message for that young man. How can we ensure that if he called the police for the help that he wants that hes going to get the officers can help them instead of the one thats going to hurt him. Guest we need to make sure the commanders are playing close attention to officer behavior. The rate of Police Shootings in chicago is a very low compared to the rate of deaths by criminal homicide are. And those bad apples have to be removed but they are by no means representative of the entire police force. Unfortunately police do have lethal weapons with them so when they make mistakes unlikely bull and other professions the consequences are dire. They are trying to do the right thing and save as many lives as possible. That includes minority lives. Host i want to thank you so much for the time that you have taken. I think we both can agree that this is an issue that has been contentious in the past. It will continue to be contentious in the future and that one day we will talk about common humanity just the way that you ended up talking about, the good that the police do, that we can spend more time focusing on the majority of all people in the United States were actually lawabiding citizens. Thats one thing we can agree with. Guest thank you so much. Coming up on book tv, interviews with authors of recent nonfiction. Next on indepth, this story and will hate good, author of showdown in the butler. Then Science WriterNatalia Holtz and the role of women in the development of rocket technology. Later, Heather Macdonald of the Manhattan Institute discusses her new book, the war on cops. You are watching book tv on cspan2. On this weekends newsmakers, newsmakers, oregon congressman greg walden on the president s election and how republicans will fare in house races. Newsmakers, sunday, sunday 10 0n on cspan. This sunday night on q a, university of toronto professor emeritus, Jean Edward Smith on his critical biography of president george w bush. It may be bushs worst fault is the fact that he is a bornagain christian who brings that ideology into the presidency. He believes that he was god aged here in earth to fight evil. Bush called the president of france on the telephone to try to get friends to join in the attack during the course of the conversation he told him that we are fighting god before the final judgment and in the book of revelation for the new testament, that is the center of the universe for many evangelicals and fundamentalist christians. Bush generally believe that. Bush generally believed that he was gods agent here on earth to fight evil. Sunday. Sunday night at eight eastern pacific. The most recent showdown Thurgood Marshall and the Supreme Court nomination that changed america. He will be taking questions were the next three hours. Host author wil haygood, you write about black men who heroically manifested themselves into mainstream america. I think my writing is a relentless pursuit to explain all of america. What does that mean . Guest i think it has been exciting to find the figures like Adam Clayton Powell junior, Thurgood Marshall who were not born into mainstream society, who by the depth of their eagerness talent, would it fit themselves into the fabric of this country by an the entertainment, politics, spo rts his hated in Thurgood Marshalls case the al lot. Ordn is an extraordinarily Patriotic Service to his country as a look over the people we have written about these amazing tales the society, culture, race i dont know if they knew it when they were doing it but the congressmen who passed legislation antipoverty congree legislation of Adam Clayton Powell, jr. In simi whose integrated nightclubs in the 1940s all across this country and as a wave of entertainers of lena horne or armstrong indentions amy davis, jr. Is Sugar Ray Robinson the mob or new york who control the in wanted to give fighters since independence and self especially. And became a six time World Champion in from Thurgood Marshall from my latest book showdown. That he foug of course, many epic case is that he fought before the United StatesSupreme Court the biggest victory is the School Segregation case if you look at all these youll get the story of 20thcentury america it how with richard and was forced to mature because of the figures. F i want to show a video of someone that you mentioned it had to explain. Ng and my wi it didnt bother me because i was so used to serving. I told him to be careful to be sure he keeps an eye on him. [laughter] who was that . Mr. Eugene allen a great man who i wrote a story about in 2008 and appearedn on the cover really one of the most neat people i met him and his wife before the election. It was amazing how i met him. I was a National Writer for the Washington Post and on the campaign trail with then senator obama. I was in north carolina. I walked outside, and three ladies were crying and they said they were crying because their fathers had kicked them out of their homes because they supported the africanamerican candidate on stage. The three young ladies were College Students and they were white. It was a powerful moment. I said wow, even though Hillary Clinton was still in the race in 2008 at that time, obama had started this Epic Movement and some of it was manifested in the tears of those three young girls who were crying. In the middle of the night in my hotel room i said he is going to win. He is going to climb that big, hard mountain and he is going to take this country to a level where race and your imagination intersect. I ran back to the newsroom and told my editor, this guy, senator obama is going to win and break history. My editor, steve, thought i was just too tired. That i was exhausted. And i said no, steve, please listen to me. He is going to win and because he is going to win i want to go wherever i have to go and find an africanamerican who worked in the service job before the 1964 civil rights bill was passed so this africanamerican, who i kind of figured was out there who had worked in the white house before legal integration, it would mean so much to him or her to see an africanamerican, who i predicted, would take the white house. Looking back it does sound like a bit of a fable because steve had to have faith in me that i would find such a person. I started looking. I was looking for somebody that did the laundry at the white house, somebody who worked in the rose garden at the white house, or the person who shined shoes or a maid, and the last word dropped off my lips or a butler. I dont know why, i knew no butlers in life, but it just rolled out. I started making phone calls. The first people i called was the white house and they said they dont divulge personal information about who has or hasnt worked there. And i said did abe lincoln every work there . And that made be keep looking on and 20 phone calls turned into 30 and then somebody calls out of the clear blue from tampa, florida as it were, and says that there was a gentlemen by the name of eugene alan who she knew worked at the white house for two president s and heard i was looking because her daughter was at a party in georgetown with me. This is how it works for journalist. You have to knock on doors and let people know you are looking for. There was a man named eugene alan who worked for the president and i should try to find him. On the 57th call a man was on the other end of the phone, i said i am mr. Haygood, i am a journalist working on a story, and we are five days from the election, and the africanamerican senator who the girls were crying for got the nomination and there was one epic step to take. I told mr. Alan i wanted to come over and talk about his life because i had heard he worked for two president s and he said you got that wrong. I worked for eight president s. Harry truman to ronald reagan. That is eight. And of course, you know, i went over and spent this amazing time with him and his wife and wrote that story about this man who worked in the white house and saw history move in front of his eyes. Host this was a little reverse because you wrote the article, thene the movie came out, then the book. Guest yes, it was. Host how did that work . Guest the story was written and then the movie producer produced the spider man movies. She reached me by phone and said the story made her cry and see wanted to buy the writes and make a movie. Rights. So it is best not to hop up and down when someone from hollywood calls, you know, for the simple fact, who knows if something will ever get made. So she was insistent and she came to washington, d. C. To visit me with williams, her assistant at the time. Now pam williams has her own company. But she was telling me about the movie directors who were interested in this story about this man who had worked at the white house and saw a whole lot of change in the country. And then lord dies and iary nothing. Everybody in hollywood who i had been talking to goes silent. And williams, tila johnson, who was the cofounder of bet, they ban together and bring in lee daniels the director. They start raising money and all of a sudden pam williams calls me and says hey, we found the actor who is going to play the butler. I am at home, sitting on my sofa eating a Peanut Butter and jelly sandwich and i said who is it going to be for she said forest whittaker. And she calls a day later saying guess what . We found the butlers life. And i said who is that going to be . And she said are you sitting down and she said sit down. Oprah winfry. And i said pam, you are pulling my leg, now. Oprah winfry hasnt acted in 17 careers and she is going to play the butlers wife years. And she said yes, oprah loves the story that much. And other cast members fell into place. I went down to new orleans where we were filming and this is going to get back to your question. I am standing on the movie set and all of these actors are Walking Around in between a scene and there is jane fonda, there is Terence Howard, there is cuba gooding, junior, there is lee sheber, and are of these great actors. I just see it. And i just said it, nobody really i just said it musing almost. I said my goodness somebody should write a book to capture the moment of all of this talent on the movie set making the movie about a butler and his wife. And Terence Howard happened to be walking by and he said you are the writer you ought to write the book. And that is how the butler book was born. That actor put the idea inside me. When i got home to washington, d. C. I was able to get in touch with a book editor, dawn davis, and she wanted to do it and i started writing the book. It went from article, movie, to book. How true from what you learned from ms. And mr. Alan was the movie . I learned a lot about the movie making business. There was a screen writer who wrote a beautiful script and lee daniels told me i want to tell your story and open it up and cover it. Lee daniels, the director, wanted to do this. He had this family, the story was going to be anchored to this family and there were changes but the theme of the whole movie i feel stayed true to the story. There was one big difference. Charles, the son of the butler, he did go to vietnam but survived and in the movie he died. In real life, there was only one son and in the movie there were two. Host did alan share stories about the president s he worked with . Guest yeah, he was a bit, how can i put it, he was a bit shy in certain cases, but yes, he did. He saw this life played out through the bills and legislation being passed. It meant something to him when eisenhower passed the civil rights bill, it went something with president kennedy went to uv and talked about the historic clashes at ole miss and James Meredith and trying to integrate the school, it meant something to him when dr. King visited the white house, it meant something to him when news floated into the white house that there had been a big clash in little rock