Like everyone else who has been on this stage perhaps myself excluded, joes credential joe joes credentials are so varied, and joe has just told me hey has Public Service announcements to make. So im going to before you ask any questions, i do have a few Public Service announcements to make. First of all, since were kind of coming to the end of the roa here i just want to compliment the people who put this thing on. Its it is. [applause] it has been pure joy every minute of it. I mean, the endorphins are just crazy in my brain, and also i am just so honored to have been on the same stage with so many brilliant and wonderful ride cash writers and want to do a special outshout oh joyce carol oats who defended against the idiot hordeses and in 20 years after they were coming after me after i wrote primary colors she defended me, too, andnd defended the act of writing anonymously. Dont screw up my questions, joe. Guest i also want to thank the four young cowboyan American High School teachers who mail be in the audience today, who we had tischer with last night. They teach in miami and just inspirational to hang with them. And then i have an observation. Ive been looking at that thing, the Abraham Lincoln for the last four days, and its the only rendering of Abraham Lincoln that i have found that isnt haunting. Every last other one was hauning and i was trying to think, it was kind of like photo shop. Did they have photo schoop in 19th century . I was trying to figure out who who he looked lick and looks like a ross between mitt romney and gary cooper. So they had split cal spin political spin doctors becomehed then, and i want to say donna brazil is a good friend of mine and gave me many of the questions in advance. So, fire away. Host okay. Guest the answer to the first one is the Supreme Court really is a crucial issue in this race, but you dont get out there and voice youre not going to get the Supreme Court you want. Host yes. Evidently. In payback, your book about vietnam veterans, actually im going to start with something else. Guest wait a second. Host this is a question you to moment the anyway rare rayot or primary colors, a guy beginning to attach himself to the president ial candidate, jack stanton, says hes trying to maca decision about whether to keep following. He says, anyway, i was curious. Thats a sentence that really struck me even though its pretty plain speech. And in comparison and in relation to your career as a journalist. Where does a journalist curiosity come from. In payback you talk to five verns of charlie company, and you want to know why. Guest well, in my case, this is a nice biographical question question. It comes from having been a child of the 60s and kind of made my way through College Without ever going to collegehe and graduating from College Without ever having learn anything except for one brilliant course about the history of the south. And i came out and i was angry about the war and i was angry about segregation, and i started to write, and over time, an incredible thing happened to me i found that when i actually went out and reported things, the results were not didnt always confirm with me preconceived notions. For example i covered busing in boston for the underground press for the real paper. Dont know if you remember that publication. One of the most talents staffs i ever worked with. Bl and i couldnt find any black people who favored butting. I would talk to black women at the Housing Project and they would say we just spent the last four years trying to get a break fast program and now theyre making making our kid goes off if the honkize and 20 before the jeremy burk high school, the black high school, went on to college and four percent of southy high in path southie high graduated more kids kids into marines thao college. And it seemed to me this was the beginning of my political education. This was being imposed by lib p rat woods didnt see anything about the working and poor people they were imposing this on. And so overtime i just picked up thing is wanted to know about. When russia was collapsing i went to russia. T i did china. I did veterans because the notion of service has always been a huge thing in my life, and in fact, charlie mike, my most recent book, is the one that probably of the seven ive written is close toast my closest to my heart. It was an educational process. Host lets talk about you have in your dossier three basic categories of writing. One is a novel, one is journalism reporting, which you gist spoke about, the third is a column which is different from the other two, obviously. Let me ask you how since were here to talk about revealing power but also literature, how did those three different categories affect the way you write . Do you feel different . I guess youre not writing fiction anymore but did you feel i am. Working on something now. Host excellent. But. Guest i came from the underground press. Stone tone Rolling StonesWashington Bureau in 70 ands going from that to writing a column was neal but i never wrote the way other people did. I underdont sit back and stroke my chip and have deep thoughts. I had to go to afghanistan and iraq and go across the country man times, talking to people. I had to go to tea party meetings. I had to actually see these things and experience them because of that First Experience in boston. And in a more general way, the process of doing journalism and writing fiction are the exact opposite for me. Although both involve some research, obviously. But in journalism i just report the hell out of something, and i get the lead in my mind, and i sit down and i write the lead and then i completely panic. With fiction writing especially true with primary colors and the lesser extent with the running mate,. Host i apologize, i did read that book. Guest and it is the exact opposite itch have no idea what the characters are going to do next, and i sit down totally panicked and then they Start Talking to each other, and i once had a conversation with i twice had a conversation with bill clinton about primaryth colors and i tell tell you bought of them before the evening is over. Host to ahead. Guest i said to him, you know, the deal was that theo gimmick was going to be that he was going to lose, but he just wouldnt. I kept on throwing all of the stupidest scandles out there at this character, and somebody hoe would writingle his way out of there, and he wrote me a wonderful notice thanking me for my subconscious. He says i always knew you looked my. The truth is i did. Host lets talk about prim primary colors. I pred the privilege of editing the book and i didnt know who wrote it until the press conference. Guest i like that fact you that is wag lisa grunwald. Cant be any here i praise for a male writer than to be thought a woman. Host very good. So, let not talk i promise we will not talk about the anonymity of primary colors. Let me ask you a let rare question. Literary question. White did you decide to write anonymously. Guest there were the stages to the press. The first stage was cowardice and whimsy. The cowardice sound like ala firm. Guest cowardice and whimsy. A keynesian law firm mitchell first two editors at the beverly times in massachusetts were named bob cutting and erving sheer. But cowardice and women whimsy. Eave last journalist thinks they have a november in their brain a novel in their brain, which really stupid conceit because its an entirely, entirely different thing. And i didnt want to make other follow fool of myself but my wife and iespecially my wife who is thats best read person i know, loved 19th century english literature, and nobody put their name on anything back then. Jane austin pride and prejudice by a lady. The first semi the first an early semi tolerable political novel, democracy was written anonymously by henry adams and his secret wasnt revealed until three years after he died. So that was the first part. Then the second part was the cowardice. Guest no. The second stage was things started happening to thesehe se characters, things i didnt expect. And at within pound one point in the second chapter, Susan Stanton tells a story. Jack stanton as a young politician had no basis in reality. And i said where the hell did that come from . And then libby, my favorite, which, my honorrine. Sixfoot lesbian with a mouth on her, appeared in a job that betsy wright had in the campaign itch hat cagedy bates in mind when i wrote here. I would bring the pages down to victoria at night, and she would start reading and laughing hit hysterically and saying where did this come from . I didnt know. I decide wanted to have the book judged on its own marries rather than my relationship with bill clinton, and i knew that if my name was on it, it would not be treated fairly by my fellow journalists. And then the third stage was, after it exploded, which none of us expected, right . Host i did. Guest you did . Why. Guest why didnt random house keep reducing the prisoning. They couldnt keep up if with it after i was publishing. Started off at 55 and that didnt guest thats publishing for you. It got scary as hell. To have a feeding frenzy going after you, and when i became a target, we had two little kids who were going to Elementary School and i said to victoria, i think i want to come out. She said, no, no, no, no,ment no. And i think that in the end i probably should have come out earlier, but there was a lot of fear going on. So thats why. Okay. How how did you decide to take the voice of a young black political worker . What led to that choice of narrator . Guest well, it was an homage to arthur penn warren. Robert penn warren. Host thats okay. Guest aanonymous name. Host well fifth you pass. Guest but white black and why young . And the other most crucial part of this is that he was the most middle class, upper middle class character in book, which i thought would be kind of ironic and hilarious. Ug but the blackness was in part because i had several people be in mind, one of them was myself, obviously. Another was george stephanopoulos, and a third was bill motor morton who was an tide didnt aide to ron brown and was a well, smart guy who died in the plane crash, and years later this has happened to me so many times with premiere colors. A woman who had been dating bill morton said to me, how died youd know that clinton had him come to an event in brooklyn and wanted item be on staff . I said i had no idea. Just happened. And in the novel it was init jus harlem. Host did the choice of that narrator affect your voice . I mean, did you inhabit him . Did he inhabit you . Guest who knows. There was some kind of host you should. D. Guest some kind of melding going on there i wrote the book. On mondays. Because because tuesdays i was working at news week and tuesday through saturday was the work week, some on saturday and sunday i was doing commentary for cbs news. And i would sit down and all of a sudden it would be four hourss later and 5,000 words wherein. Never happened to me before or since. Ive had in good days but those days were kind of scary, and the act of disappearing, i think, is a really important thing for all of us. I think that the purist state of intellectual nature is when youre so involved with what youre thinking. That you disappear, you forget. Your corp corporeal existence. Host you used the word scary. Insofar as as ive ever shared that experience and most writers i know would say the same thing. A little puzzling to me why its frightening. Do you have any idea . When you get in, as they callli it, the zone and forget yourself. Guest well, its not frightening while youre in sewn but when you leave the zone, the biggest fear is, aim ever going to get there again . Can i come back . Host so, i promised we wouldnt talk about controversy so let talk about the controversy. What do you say . Guest okay. Host what were your experiences going through that firestorm before, during and after . I mean, just talk about what it was like. Guest it was a fabulous learning experience. It was incredibly painful but a fabulous learning experience. I was shocked by the anger women had the first conference. You hand met groucho glasses which i walked out and said, ich guess i wont be needing these anymore, and the New York Times reported, subsequently, i gave the press conference wear ing groucho classes. Never anything so humbling for a journalis to be the subject. I learned how slippery assholes my colleagues were. The times has some on the greatest journalisted in world, especially those who i have covered wars with overseas and politics as well. But when it comes to social and cultural and theres a really lot of nonsense going on there, and i mean, maureen dowd wrote three columns about primary colors before it came out and she said well know immediately who wrote it because of who the villains are. When mike nichols because the rights to movie he said the thing he likes best is there were no villains in there. Which is why i wrote it, a good part of me motivation. Wh so i had that terrible press conference, and that night random house put me up the waldorf. Up on the cape where we pend spend our summers, and i at a certain point, i couldnt sleep. I couldnt eat. t kept on Drinking Water do going to at the bathroom and shaking uncontrollably. And i had this moment and i said, you know what you just experienced, joe . You u. S. And experienced an average day in life of bill clinton. And its true when you think about enduring a press conference. I mean, it almost gives me enough almost host watch it. Guest it is almost enough to make me sympathetic with donald trump but i cant be. Host i knew thats where we were going. Guest but then a very interesting thing happened. Th in the weeks after that, ies started getting phone calls from politicians. It had absolutely no ideological consistency. Some good friend, like paul wellstone, dear, wonderful guys. Bob mitt suery. John mccain on the right. People from across the spectrum said to me, we know what it feels like to be in the position youre in now. The there are people trying to drive me out of the business, news week laid me off for a week and then okay graham, bless her heart, said how are you feeling . I said im business pissed off and want to write a column on welfare reform. She said youre in the magazine this week. All the politicians said the exact same thing, we have been through this, and the way you get through it is go to work. Get out there and start reporting about other people. And the final thing that happened was that i decided to change the rules of journalism. I for me at least. I decided that i would have a no gotcha rule. That if a politician said something really stupid. Didnt involve a matter of life and death, national security, war and peace, and i would tell them to them if i wereew interviewing them for the first time. If you Say Something stupid you can take it back. Really feel that politicians are no day in the park. But theyre not as bad as we have come to portray them. And if we want them to trust us, and to tell us what theyre really thinking, we have to make some concessions to them as well, and i thought, at that point i had so much notoriety i didnt need to make my name by saying, Chuck Schumer said shit. So theyve only called it on themselves once or twice in last 20 years. Host so, lets tuck about the elephant in the room. A little bit. And with regard to literature again, on this stage during this similar do you like to call its seminar, not a conference, not a festival. Guest makes me feel academic which ive never really felty we have heard people say that donald trump, and perhaps others like him, if there are any guest going to be many more. Host are not easy to sort of write about. For instance, to do a because he is so one dimensional, that he could not be jack stanton in primary colors. Too you share that . Guest absolutely. I am planning to im writing a novel now that takes place in new york city in 1896, and im thinking of making having aer trumplike character because i really do believe he is a figury from the period before there was selfobservation. He was i had one line the running mate which was the with unexamined life is not worth living with, and i think about donald trump, that line comes to mind when i think about donald trump. But the phenomenon of donald trump is something we have sunshine literature in past. En what was the movie with andy griffith, a face in the crowd . The dem going who has demagogue who has come along and raped the public cannot unknown in american or overseas literature. In t in this case, i let me tell you. Host how about chinatown, the movie. The megalomaniac who guest yeah. Host but hes interesting in a way trump is, too. But only as i said, a couple of days ago here, because of the quality of his misdirection. That whenever he is concerned whenever he talks about sex, dont listen. See what else is going on. His trying to lure you somewhere else. Here e can i just say that, as i actually went around the country and talk to people, trump supporters, there were three, tr reasons people voted for trump, and hillary was right, there were a basket of deplorables, just pure haters who are part another it but time talking about other people. The rest of the people there were three types. One were convinced he was goingc to get them a better job. The second or a job. Well, no. Listen host they employed . Guest yeah. We have unemployment 4. 7 . Know the work force par tisi temperature Participation Rate is lower because were an aging population im psych of people saying barack obama was a failure when we saved us from am second grade depression. [applause] guest i know that was a slamdunk line. But she type were people who were more comfortable with reality tv than with reality. And they liked the way he talked. They said he takes about arabs the way we do. He is telling the truth. The key, the thing i missed that im really pissed off at myself about is when he slagged john mccain early on in the campaign, and his popularity ratings went up, and we were all shocked. And i realized the reason why was that people would say, well, thats a stupid thing to say but at least he speaks his mind as opposed to focus group language. That hillary uses that and the third rope. Aen awful lot of people who didnt like hillary, men and, women alike, who felt they she was too staged and not authentic. Guest what was the question . Donna didnt get give me that one. Host im not sure i remember. When you again, returning to the three things you do the three kinds of writing you do that is fiction, reporting, and column writing w