Have with a stelar panel of experts with the first points of view on the topic, thank you to our panelists for being with us today. In the interest of time will keep our guest bios brief will find out more about themht onli, right project. Org. A partner in the law firm of johnson in washington d. C. And law practice covers cybersecurity and Data Protection, Homeland Security, travel and foreign investment. N Panel Experts with a view on this topic. Thank you to panelist for being with us today. Interest of your time, i will keep guest bios brief but find out more about the right project for. That is right project. Org. Baker is washington, d. C. His a book on terrorism, cybersecurity and other Technology Issues and house podcasts, cyber law podcast. Distinguish professor of law at the university of arizona, James E Rogers college of law, a professor teaches and studies fundamental problems of well intended technologyy policies in her Research Discusses the social cost and benefit data and new Information Technologies affect free speech, privacy and competitive markets. Also has weekly podcast the cyber law podcast. Jean bauer is the rosenstiel distinguished professor of law at the university of arizona. James the Rogers College of law. She teaches and studies the fundamental problems that are well intended technology policies. Her Research Assesses the social cost and benefits of data and how new Information Technology is a fact of free speech, privacy, and competitive components. She serves as a codeputy director of the quantitative networks. Where she facilitates research on economic relic regulatory policy on her work has been featured in 20 scholar publications including the michigan log review and many others. She holds a bs in mathematics from yale and a ged from yell law school. Danielle is the distinguished professor in law and the caddell a chapman of law at the university of Virginia School of law. She teaches about privacy, for he asked russian, civil rights, and she serves as the inaugural director of the School Center which focuses on pressing to questions on technology. She focuses on civil rights initiatives. Her latest book privacy protecting identity and love in the current age will be out in october 2022. Her first crimes in cyberspace in was wildly praised in public reviews. She has essays including the yale law journal and many others for the past decade she has worked with lawmakers and Law Enforcement and Tech Companies to combat online abuse of tech intimate privacy. Our moderator today will be paul rosens pretty. He is a writer and speaker with a National Reputation in bible in cybersecurity and Homeland Security. He is part of the homeland Consulting Company that Homeland SecurityConsulting Company. He is our professed oriole and law at George University and a senior fellow in the tech program at American University of college of law. He is a member of the Cybersecurity Task force in the United States court of appeals in the district of columbia circuit. Advisory committee on admissions and grievances. He is a graduate of the university of law school and cyber warfare of how conflicts and cyberspace are challenging america and changing the world. After discussion between our Panel Experts if time allows, we will go to audience q and a. Please enter any questions that we have into the q and a function in the bottom of your window. Note, as always the Federalist Society and regulatory transparency project take note this could do take no position on legal or policy matters those topics shared are the opinions of those joining us. Paul you may start. Think you for that introduction. Of our topic and our guest. Im delighted to welcome everybody to this webinar discussion. The dogs decision in june was the do wasb an earthquake decision and it will havebs law of abortion. One of the most surprising at least to me, aspects of that that i would not have anticipated prior to its coming to court is hal dobbs is or may affect Online Privacy issues. To cite just one example, of where it was recently reported, in a case, out of nebraska where the Nebraska Police are investigating people for allegedly assisting and illegal abortion. They have salt from facebook the private messages of that individual. Implicating that both obviously the abortion issue itself, directly, but also for our purposes today, the question of then and how data privacy issues will intersect with the abortion right. I am sure, that everybody on the call, everybody listening and understands that data privacy is a broad and floppy subject ranging from messaging to geolocation to other aspects of our digital selves. And i hope that in this coming 45 minutes or an hour we will be able to explore all of how that bit of water reality intersects with this new understanding of personal privacy that arises in the coast dobbs world. So to begin, let me start by asking jane to introduce us to the topic. And to examine and expound upon the scope of the problem. How it connects to dobbs, and maybe use the case in nebraska as a jumping point and tell us more about it. And in the end, us all on the panel and those listening in the audience a reason why we are here and why this surprising turn of events has taken at least the data privacy world by storm. Jane . Youre right. There are Opinion Pieces and news items as well that have been quite persistent since the original dobbs opinion was leaked. This would include location data everyones cell phone provider collects and also your gps app and whatnot. Also Google Search data, search terms that are going to be indicating whether a person was then a lot ofd reporting on these acts that collect information about a womans menstrual cycle and ask wind up with data off the device into the crowd, there are concerns about that but also how the data might be used in combination with other types of data to determine a woman in a particular state where abortion is illegal vista. Our a woman has become pradip pertinent and later location data suggest they sought an abortion. All of these data sources are useful for criminals and in many ouways the debate is one happeng for well over a decade now but its also true some crimes are more amenable detected and tracked in this highly technological datadriven weight than others so maybe seeking an abortion given inevitable location changing nature of that where a woman has to go someplace that might eventually be identified for abortions provided in state there were a while, itul might have a particular fingerprint others dont have so it may be more likely these types of crimes, if they become crimes make use of the data. Most of the data are one content data including location data at least might be available to Law Enforcement using a subpoena, so without this. Of course the carpenter decision recently announced the u. S. Supreme court changes that somewhat and put some of the questions which we can talk about later. In response, some Companies Including google, have taken action, google has promised it will delete data, automatic that is related to location, tracking when a person visits a medical clinic. Is whether theres really an appetite yet for criminalizing and prosecuting women in particular for seeking abortions. I would have said maybe four years ago i would have said even if roe was overturned theres simply not a viable sort of political will to go after or prosecute womenas opposed to abortion providers but i think thats change. The nebraska casesuggests there has been a shift. On the campaign trail when donald trump was running for president he made at the time what seemed like a gap where he asked why wouldnt we prosecute women and everyone understood that even the most sort of prolife and politically active supporters of abortion bands didnt want to place criminal attention on the women themselves but i think that has shifted. So then another issue though was whether the criminal law that either has emerged or will emergent states are going to criminalize only abortions within their own states which would lead to one set of questions about what types of data or whether instead at least one state is considering criminalizing crossing state borders in order to seek an abortion where it is legal in that jurisdiction. And so that raises not only privacy questions but interesting criminal law some questions as well whether thats the type of behavior that should even be within the purview of their jurisdiction. Finally im not sure if theres an answer to these questions i think are important and kind of maybe prerequisites for understanding the list of privacy violations. And thats whether states are likely to both and act laws and enforce laws that most of us would find kind of repugnant and contrary to what the criminal system should be used for. In the nebraska case i dont think is actually a great case to hold up for fear mongering because it involves a mother guiding a 17yearold to abort her 23weekold fetus so i think reasonable minds of course ctrun the full gamut in terms of the morality of abortion and when the interests of potential life start to equal or even surpass interests in the sort of you know, bodily and economicfreedom of the mother. But i think we understand that many people think at some point that happens and 23 weeks is a pretty long time so even in europe this would be the typeof abortion in most countries in europe that would be illegal. So i think im interested in whether were likely to see prosecutions of this sort that would make use of this data and if so, how carefully to refine any data privacy we might want to take. Thats a great introduction. Before we go to the substance just a quick kick with stuart or danielle, do any of you have any other broadly speaking use Case Scenarios you think ought to be in the pot for consideration as potential avenues for data usage in criminalprosecutions related to abortion, stewart . I think that is way over full with use cases already so i have no more to add. Danielle. Yeah, because there are cases i could make. From your Abortion Clinics as a potential way of power dumps for those who dont know are basically polling location data from a cell phone tower near a location where a client would be used for example in a bank robbery possibly and one could imagine you know, the potentiality. Any others, im just trying to set it before we all go talkabout what we think about. I think its important to recognize that Law Enforcement, state federal and local has contracts with data brokers. Data brokers in particular but also data brokers that have 3000 data points on each h and every one of us including g whether we can terminate a pregnancy. The microscopic level of detail and it requires no subpoena or warrants. They have contracts on going right now so i think the idea that were going to in all cases have sort of interesting for amendment questions hafor the thirdparty doctrine and i hope of course we come back and start rethinking how the interplay stays within carpenter. Its just the reservoir for information are overflowing and easily accessible to Law Enforcement. Did we just lose danielle . I believe so, i cant hear her. Okay. Well, those are the vagaries ofzoom discussions. So hopefully we will get her back. Perhaps one of the people like don or stephen can try toreach out to her so lets continue the discussion. Danielle, there we go sorry about that. I thought this would be the best place for us to be stable. Lets move on to the substance and let me come back to you danielle while i have you. If i were to kind of broadly characterize levels of concern, my prepanel understanding is that concerns are significantly higher than james and certainly muchhigher than stewards so we will come to you next. Puta little salt on the table. Tell us why youre concerned based on the issues youre he raising. The book which i hope to get a copy of when it comes out and tell us why you think that this intersection is particularly troubling. So my work focuses on intimate privacy, thats the privacy around and information about our bodies, our health, our closest relationships, our sexuality, Sexual Orientation or sexual activities and our innermost thoughts which we document course with our Google Searches and all of our communications o. By my life intimate privacy is a foundational value that deserves partial protection. But in her privacy is the precondition for human flourishing. It enables us to figure out who we are, to develop our authentic selves and thats with people. Thats not to say its alone but with trusted others. It enables us to enjoy selfrespect and social respect so that we are seen as old people rather than just our pajamas for the fact that we have how likelihood of developing typeii diabetes. We can be seen as whole , fully integrated people and charles friede said it best. Privacy is the precondition. Its the oxygen for love. Thats how we get to know each other is that we reveal things to one another we wouldnt reveal to other people. Shared and reciprocal vulnerability allows love to have been so because in so many ways individuals, government and local perspectives, we are closing disclosing hand over this information about our lives willfully without protecting it in ways that i think have long stream, downstream effects we can wrap our heads around. That have to do with discrimination, ranking peoples jobs youdont get, insurance premiums that go up that you dont realize and this is especially true for women and minorities. So to go back to james discussion about your skepticism about the political will. Haim just going to drop michelle goodwins book on inpolicing the black body that over the last nine years weve seen 400 prosecutions of black women and girls during pregnancies and havent either taken with drugs during pregnancy so using Fetal Homicide Laws that were really not meant for that. Someone kills a mother and baby, right so i do thinkwere going to see ripples. Prosecutions that may not affect the sort of more privileged folks but i think we are going to see unfortunately, i guess im worried about the political will. Even in my own state at the moment about the kind of prosecutions. We might see rates depending on the rollout of these states criminal laws so we see companies as the handmaidens of government and individuals to. Individuals you got someone angry at a lover. Tells someone might i think my next had an abortion. I have spyware on her phones and this is exactly what shes doing. And this opens the door to the surveillance of intimate life that we can close it. Weve been working with folks on the american Data Protection and Privacy Protection act and my body my health. Theres various eninnovations happening on the hill, we will see what happens but we need special protection for intimate information. So its so essential to afigure out who we are that i hope that we see development on the hill. I hope that was helpful. Give me more specifics. Youre obviously concerned about the growth of a prosecution potentiality. Thats kind of i mean, thats a political haquestion that is not really tied directly to the dataissue. Let me ask you this question. Are your data concerns about abortion unique to abortion or do you see the same concerns about the whole panoply of intimacy privacy that you define whether its transgender is him, marriage. Sexual orientation. Whatever. Ha totally. And its interesting and youre so right. I cant dictate what state legislatures are going to do and its your judgment and assessment thats going to be criminal law with a warrant you would think thisis perfectly appropriate. So the Supreme Court said theres no constitutional right to seen in state constitutions. Theres no right to privacy or right to bodily autonomy that they still recognize in the 14th amendment. So but my, i wrote my book and im working on it. He was going to be an interesting point im sure. My concerns remain. All the way are we back . Repeat the lasts im sorry. I wrote my book for the leak of the draft so myconcerns let me give you a few examples and i think they would help us wrap our heads around why i care about it. So when individuals deprive each other of intimate privacy its often private women and girls andchildren of their privacy. And when i mean by that is there are 9500 sites right now, many of them hosted in the United States that talk intimate images of people having sex so intimate images of nude or sexually explicit photos. And its not always an accurate, could be an deep fake sex video. And when that is accompanied by your name and home address , its not only devastating for you personally because its the fear just of whos going to come approach you. It changes your sense of safety, youre constantly on guard but it changes your economic opportunities. Children have lost their jobs because their names include defense of pornography. Parochial School Students as well as High School Principals and so its nurses, its every type of person unfortunately can be tormented. We just comprehensive approach to privacy and pro e bono lowcost counsel. There are laws on the books in the unfortunately stay on the books. So we have some cchallenges. Its surprising when it comes to companies, lets just take wagner for example. Grinder was encouraging people. Its a d