I had the determination to be a professional tennis player. I had some qualifying tournaments and had some success, but i came to the conclusion i couldnt be great, and that was important to me, so i had to let go of it. It was a very, very difficult thing to do, but it helped me in ways i couldnt foresee at the time when i was thinking about selling my oil and Gas Exploration basis, that was difficult too. Id done it once before or and survive ised that, so it was a great enthusiasm of mine to be able to go take some time off and learn about things i didnt know about. Host whered you grow up . Guest i was born in oak park, illinois, but i spent most of my time if dallas. My parents are from oklahoma, but moved to dallas in 1960. I was educated there, went to several different colleges and, ultimately, built my Business Career working out of dallas. Host when did you get interested in art and history . Guest ive always been interested in history, but i really didnt know much about art. My parents were able to take us on some trips and exposed us to going to museums just as tourists, and i was always interested in seeing these things. I didnt understand anything about them other than i thought one was pretty or one wasnt. Spent some time walking through churches, but as i started traveling more as a adult and then once with i became married, i had more interest in these things. Again, not really understanding what i was looking at. But for me, i wasnt interested in trying to understand it through reading books. I learn best outside a class room. Very tactile. So when i was in florence, a lot of american universities there. I hired an american professor to take me around the city one day a week and show me these things through her eyes. I want to see what, i want to learn about these things in a very, very handson way. And it was a great, great experience to understand how sculpture moves, why churches that both appear to be the same, ones more important than the other. And, of course, id say europe was my classroom, and florence was my school. And it really was an extraordinary opportunity. Host robert edsel, is there a dollar figure that you can put on the art that was stolen by the nazis . Guest its as high as you want to make it. We really get into an exercise of futility trying to put numbers on it, you know . Do we approach a trillion . We might when we think about paintings today, some paintings selling for 150 million, 200 million. We have to ask what would happen if a Leonardo Da Vinci could be sold. Im here were in the 250 300 million range. You start to think that in some of these salt mines and castles, these monuments officers were finding 20,000 paintings, hundreds of thousands of ancient Library Books and libraries, so the numbers just get to be staggering. Host how much is still missing . Guest here, again, this becomes an exercise in numbers. A lot of people like to, i think, deal with numbers that are just so large i think it makes it harder for the public to understand. A number that i use is hundreds of thousands of cultural objects including works of art. But, you know, the nazis stole anything that had any value to it, so were talk talking about tapestries, drawings, important books, documents. In poland alone they have some 60,000 specific works of art that are on their missing database. When we say a few hundred thousand, thats not a random number thats just picked out of the sky. Some people use in the millions of numbers, and its just hard to tell. Host 202 is the area code if you would like to talk with robert edsel. 5853880 in the east and central time zones, 5253881 in the mountain and pacific zones. Contact us booktv is our twitter handle, send an email to booktv cellcspan. Org. Facebook. Com booktv. Were going to begin with a call from bernie in howard beach, new york. Bernie, you on with robert youre on with robert edsel. Caller good morning, mr. Edsel. I read the rape of europa, and in it they talk about lincoln [inaudible] going over before the war to buy the. I believe it was before 39 and germany or in sweden. Can you tell me something about it . What happened . What did he buy . One of the great things ive learned in the course of my work is to speak passionately about the things i know about and be quick to say i dont know that, and in this case i cant help you on that one. Host did the nazis take great care with this art, or were they careless . Guest i think you have a whole range of things. In the earlier days when theyre in control of things, i think there was some degree of care being shown for works of art for hitlers collection, certainly the things that were intended for gerings collection. But when the mass removals of works of art from peoples homes in the east where things homes are destroyed, the cities are razed, no, i dont think theres care there. And, of course, in the west as jews apartments are looted en masse, no, these things are piled up. I think theres its one of the paradoxes of the war that a lot of these works of art survived because of a result of having been stolen and hidden in castles that were off the way of allied bombing, they survived. So there are a lot of dislocations and paradoxes in the telling of the story. Thats just one of them. Host andy, kensington, maryland. Hi, andy. Caller hi. So thank you for all the great work that youve done. My question has to do with the National Gallery of art, and i bereave they currently believe they currently have an exhibit thats, you know, timed to coincide with the movie. But for about 15 years or so is, ive been really troubled with the national l gallery of art because it turns out that back in the 1980s they put on an exhibition of artworks on loan that included some artworks that had been looted by the nazis. And this was a collection of art of impressionist paintings by the swiss industrialist emil buehler. And once this came out, the National Gallery never addressed it. It has never apologized, and its just sort of like, you know, buried its head in the sand like an ostrich. And so now they are claiming to be so concerned about this issue, but my question to you is, number one, are you familiar with that issue, and number two, do you have any suggestions in terms of pressure that might be applied to have them, you know, address this issue . All they have to do is apologize host all right, andy, we got the point. Robert edsel. Guest i dont know about the specific exhibit youre talking about, but this is a long time ago now. The issue of providence, which is a fancy way of saying whos owned it previously, is something that really has come into fore now since the late 1990s, and i think it i dont really see any point in trying to go back and scold the National Gallery or any other galleries for things that might have happened in the 1980s concerning the decision about works of art that are being shown. I dont think that would happen today, and i think that we should focus on Going Forward i trying to solve some of the problems that we can fix. And thats really what the work of the Monuments Men foundation is on a goforward basis. Host stephen hall offal corn State University tweets in, wonderful presentation. My history students at alcorn state are assigned to watch the movie. What do you think of the movie . Guest i think the movies fantastic in this respect or its a hugely challenging subject. It hasnt been tackled on the big screen before, a major story about world war ii that we havent seen on the big screen. Its a daunting task. It covers a wide geographical scope, a large amount of time. These officers never really were in one place together, so there have to be adjustments to the story, but i think George Clooney and grant his love did a good job, and as i write about in Monuments Men, people are going to know this is an american and britishled operation, it had not been done before on this scale, there was historic issue that paved if way for this to happen. The policy of the western allies is to return them, the monuments officers risked their lives or were killed during combat. Its an incredibly noble and upbeat story about world war ii, and if someone wants to know the details and more about the people, its all there in my book. Guest monumentsMen Foundation. Org has biographies on each one of the 350 or so Monuments Men and women from 13 nations. We have a lot of photographs that we have some that are in rescuing da vinci, my first book, but a lot of information that we couldnt include in the various books ive written. Host two events, both at the white house this past week. You were at the white house for a screening, right . Guest yeah. We were invited, George Clooney and grant were kind enough to include not only me, but most importantly, harry etlinger, 88 years old from rockaway, new jersey, and we were invited to a private screening on tuesday. President obama made a point of having the time for a visit with us, and it was a great opportunity for harry et linger. Hes one of the few people thats been to the white house twice under two sitting president s. Host next call for robert edsel comes from are martha in charleston, south carolina. I think this is probably martha barclay, isnt it . Caller oh, good morning, peter. Host how are you, martha . Caller im fine. Thank you for your work with cspan. Because of cspan, of course, i ran out and bought edsels, robert edsels book years ago when you had his work on cspan. And youve kind of stolen my thunder, peter, youve asked about the priceless well, the cost and the value of art. I mean, its definitely priceless just as life is priceless. And the movie, of course, portrayed the two lives lost. I imagine there were more lives lost. Have to go back and check my books. My question to robert edsel, thank you for your work. Since the age of 39, i think its marvelous. I kind of had the feeling that movie was like a Fraternity Party sphere. Even atmosphere. Even though the locations and the artwork, it was of just superb. Im so glad the story is out, maybe because of of the movie. But i wanted to know the rest of the story at rugges, if you could tell that. Guest the rest of the story what . Caller at brugges. Guest about the madonna . Caller yes. Guest well, thats the only sculpture my michelangelo to leave italy during his lifetime, and it was one of the focus pieces the nazis stole in september of 1944. Its such an illustrated situation because human nature youd figure a few weeks down the road the nazis would turn to save their lives. No, theres still some things that havent been acquired yet. And theres a group of nazis that go the church in brugges, and it was the same mattress that george stout found it in in the salt mine in austria the following year. Its ultimately taken to the salt mine where the monuments officers find it, but it was one of the key pieces that officer ron ballford was trying to find when he was killed in march of 1945. One of the two officers killed. Host good morning, texas, youre on with robert edsel. Caller yes. I cant wait to see your movie, but i was going to ask you, i saw a movie years ago with Burt Lancaster called the train, and it was all about them trying to to get the stolen art from the germans. I wonder if that was kind of based on the same thing youre talking about . Guest its a much smaller story. Its a fine, fine film. This is a film based on the great french herr wynns book, the war against art, and rose is a remarkable woman. In fact, weve recently translated a wonderful book thats been written about her thats out there. Just to focus on her story. Ive written a short introduction to it which is available on ebook. But rose is this woman who works in the museum about halfway between the louvre and the palace that la concord and worked under the United States states the eyes of the nazis. Shes making secret notes and digging through trash cans, ultimately, she turned over to an officer really a treasure map to go find these things. The story thats told in the train, very, very briefly, i mean, in a matter of a few minutes, introduces rose, and then it really becomes a teteatete between the French Resistance and this fictitious german character trying to get the works of art on the last train back into germany. In fact, this last train never leaves paris, it just goes in a circle around and around the center of the city. But, you know, its a fun movie, and it certainly raises a few of the same issues. Host prior to the german invasion of these european nations, did they take steps to protect their art . Guest yeah, and, in fact, i try and mention this in all three of my books, saving italy, i spend a lot of tomb talking about the art superintendents and volunteers in all these cities. In saving italy the book really begins to one scene we loaned to the film about the near destruction of the last supper by allied bombing, and had it not been for the protective measures taken in 1940 just on the whatif chance that a bomb might fall somewhere near the dining hall containing this, then we wouldnt have any da vinci code. Wed all know about the last supper from art u. S. Ly books because it would have been obliterated. A ball blasts out the east wall of the dining hall, and the paintings exposed to the elements for almost two years, only saved because there was scaffolding and poles bracing the wall. So this is a miraculous near disaster that this masterpiece of western civilization was almost lost by bombing on our side. Host what about the louvre . Was it pretty much and did it stay intact . Guest well, the building did, but the french artificials knowing knowing the invasion of poland bins begins, they start the evacuation of works of art taken to french chateaus out in the countryside. This was the standard procedure. It happened in florence, removal of works to some 38 tuscan villas. The great concern was bombing by the allies destroying the museums or other Cultural Treasures inside the cities. The problem gets stickier once the allied invasions begin in particular in italy and sicily and nap ls. Because in the case of florence, the Museum Officials didnt have the vehicles. The nazis had confiscated them. They couldnt get them from the villas back into the city, and there they are safe from allied bombing, but in the middle of ground warfare. It was a perilous situation, and ultimately, the removal by iss forces taking these things on the basis they were supposedly safeguarding them. Host susan is calling from springfield, missouri. Youre on booktv on cspan2. Caller hi. Thank you guys for being there. My question is about, like, christian art . Forgive me, i havent had a chance to read your book, so im new to all this. But i just wonder especially in iraq and places where there might be more religious, you know, type p artifacts and so forth, if they were destroyed on purpose because of obvious reasons that people dont want the world to know that anything else exists besides what they believe in. I just wondered if your research has, you know, turned up anything about those kinds of issues. Guest well, one of the things that the Monuments Men foundation is doing, were, of course, trying to raise worldwide visibility. Thats why the George Clooney film is so important, because no book can accomplish what this film can do. Its going to be opening in some 100 countries around the world. So thats a great chance for people not only to know the story of the Monuments Men, but also to know the heroic role that the United Statesled effort played in saving some of these things. This isnt religious art versus christian art, islamic art, its not really segregated that way. Adolf hitler and the nazis feel anything of value, sometimes jewish collectors who collected the great things that were available to be acquired. The monuments officer, likewise, rescued whatever had been stolen or head the attempt to do that. In iraq the great tragedy for our country was followed in the aftermath of the looting of the National Museum and the other Cultural Treasures there. We did not make protection of the Cultural Treasures if iraq in 2003 in iraq in 2003 following the invasion a target. We paid a horrible price in the court of world opinion, and its one of the works of the Monuments Men foundation to reestablish that high standard. We need, ultimately, the president of the United States whos our ceo of the enterprise, of the country, to come forward and restate what general eisenhower did protection and respect for the works of art of other people is important, and thats the policy of the United States. Host brian perry tweets in to you, mr. Edsel, the Monuments Men movie was fun, but is there an indepth documentary in the works . Guest were having discussions about that. We worked with National Geographic and fox to make a onehour documentary which show inside conjunction with the are release of the film and also in europe. Its, obviously, a big story. Its, you know, up until this point in time it hasnt been told for a variety of reasons. Its taken years of my effort to get these three books written and more books forthcoming in the future. So i hope that well have a chance to do that. I hope what we see is a feature film on saving italy. Its a remarkable story, and its a very different kind of problem, because italy is a partner of nazi germany the first three years of the or war. And it presents all sorts of different problems and a completely different cast of officers. Host we just showed the covers, but i want to ask about saving italy. What is this photograph on the cover . Guest its a remarkable photograph we found pretty well into our research of the david, certainly one of the three most well known works of art. And you think about the story between the mona lisa and the louvre which is moved on fife separate occasions five separate occasions, the last supper and david. I mean, the three most famous works of art are at ground zero of the story. The david couldnt be moved out of th