Nelson. We can hopefully, talk about that later. And secondly he wanted a stronger military defense plank. He wanted the party, in effect, to repudiate Dwight Eisenhower eisenhower it was believed that Nelson Rockefeller and the wing of the party he represented had the clout to require this or at least to be taken seriously. We now know that by 1960 service that was probably not, not the case. It was a matter of perception. It was fed by what today we would call the mainstream media. Cspan and what did Richard Nixon and rockefeller think of each other . Guest its a complex they respected each other as rivals. There certainly were any number of occasions when i think each man tried the patience of the other. Oddly enough, during the Eisenhower Administration theyd been allies. They were both in some ways well, theres a wonderful letter. Rockefeller writes the day after the 56 election nelson writes, oddly enough to Richard Nixon. And he says thanks to you and the president , the Republican Party is emerging as the Great Liberal Party of the future. And in light of everything we know since then, that seems an odd thing to say. Except in 1956, you know people forget it wasnt Barry Goldwater that broke the solids out. It was Dwight Eisenhower. He carried almost 40 of the africanamerican vote and a majority of southern electors. So because the party turned to goldwater and then in effect on to nixon and reagan and gingrich, because the party took that turn in 1964 doesnt mean that that had to be the history. It could have been a very different history. Cspan on his own terms is the title of the book. Whered you get that . Guest in 35 years of writing books, this is the first time ive gotten a title that i wanted. Thats one thing that never changed. Cspan how old is he on the picture of the cover . Guest that would be in the early 60s so he would be in his mid 50s. On his own terms seemed to to me to sum up better than any other phrase nelsons approach to life, to politics, to women, to art. Even arguably to death. Quick story behind that, goes to the heart of who he was. Because it took me much of those 14 years to reach what i thought was an adequate understanding of this very elusive figure. He was incredibly close to his mother, Abby Aldridge rockefeller. And as i say she died in 1948. And id been told by someone close to him that he kept her ashes in the house. And Happy Rockefeller was kind enough to spend half a day with me and give me a tour both of the house, the big house and the house that he built for retirement nearby. And every rockefeller house is built on the same floor plan. On the right is mothers room, and on the left is fathers room. And sure enough many mothers room is a 15th century urn. And we were coming to the end of tour, and i thought, what have i got to live . And i realitied this story to mrs. Related this story to mrs. Rockefeller, and she said, oh, thats true. And i said, how could that be . There was a funeral x her ashes were interred. She said oh, nelson just reached in and grabbed a handful. Now, i dont know many people who would do that, and it tells me two things, two sides of his character. One, theres an almost childlike impulsiveness. He was utterly unselfconscious which is, i think makes him unique among rockefellers and probably unusual among most of us. But it also made him an incredible campaigner, streetlevel campaigner. But the other thing that it also suggests is a sense of entitlement that goes beyond the norm. How many of us would entertain for a moment the notion at such a time and place of possessing ones parent in that way. Theres on his own terms. He believed he should have life and i believe death, on his own terms. Cspan who picked out all of the quotes at the head of each chapter . Guest i did. Cspan why did you start, and ill read it with the prologue from Murray Kempton . Guest he was a highly respected journalist in new york. I guess you could say maybe a little left of center but of that generation. I mean, Jimmy Breslin i mean, first of all, new york was a newspaper town when Nelson Rockefeller went into politics in the 1950s. I dont know how many papers there were. Of course, most of them are gone. But, i mean, it was a newspaper town, and it generated great journalists who were, first of all, great reporters but secondly also in kemptons case, police call analysts. Cspan hes long gone. Guest yeah. Cspan it came down from rockefeller, those galleries a howl of hatred of a human being who embodied everything these people had hated for 20 years. He just stood there and began his prose in the armor of a magnificent contempt. Who cares what he said; it was what he was that night. Guest yeah. Cspan what night . Guest july 14 1964. The New York Times referred to it as bastille day in reverse. It was new york versus the rest of america. Not exactly a dispute thats gone away, i suppose. One that perhaps has been at least temporarily healed in the walk of 9 11. The fact in the wake of 9 11. The fact of the matter is the Republican Party, going back to 1912 when Theodore Roosevelt and William Howard taft split it asunder and t. R. Ran it a third party, progressive liberal we would call it republican campaign, throughout the 20th century there had been a divide. It was partly geographical,more ideological, it was substantive. The conservatives in the midwest, for example tended to be isolationistses in terms of foreign isolationistses in terms of foreign policy. The eastern liberals the eastern establishment tended to be internationalists, much more willing to get into world war ii before pearl harbor. They also, however, were divided about their reaction to the new deal. The eastern liberals were prepared to accommodate the changes, a much more active role for government. The conservatives west of the ap appalachias held out for a more hard shell view, if you will. Now, the liberals believed and this is critical Nelson Rockefeller, again, as i say, had no ideology. He believed first and foremost that a problem should be taken care of through the private sector. If the private sector couldnt or wouldnt then lets look for partnership with government. The idea being the eastern establishment believed, first of all, you needed a strong robust growing, private economy. Whatever it took. And government could be an agent of that. Thats an idea as old as alexander hamilton. But if you didnt have that strong robust private economy you couldnt pay for the compassion mate, you couldnt afford to do all of these social programs. So they put, they thought the horse before the cart. And they felt the new deal was acting in reverse. Cspan lets go to some video e from that convention in 1964 the year that they nominated barrly goldwater at Barry Goldwater at the Republican Convention. Feed on fear, hate and terror. They encourage disunity. You control the audience. These are people who have nothing in common with american. The Republican Party must repudiate these people. Guest extremism. [laughter] then as now, a topic much discussed. First of all, you have to have a little bit of context. That convention came one month after passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act which, its important to note, was passed with republican votes in both houses, but critically in the senate. And a bill that Nelson Rockefeller strongly supported. In fact, he wanted to go further. He wanted a Voting Rights act at the same time which, of course would come about a year later. Finish Barry Goldwater who it must be said had personally been a leader in desegregating not only his familys Department Store in phoenix, but the Arizona National guard, nevertheless, goldwater was of that rugged individualist school who feared federal coercion more than quite frankly, he championed the civil rights of africanamericans. Cspan did we see hate right there . Is that what were seeing . Guest yeah. We saw a generation it was hike a volcano that had built up. Like a volcano that had built up. Everything about new york that you hated, everything about the eastern establishment media which exercised a much greater centralized, dominant position. There is earlier in the evening Dwight Eisenhower, by accident, he had no idea. This was 30 years before ike declares culture wars. He mentioned in a throwaway line sensationseeking columnists who couldnt care less about the good of our party, and the place explodes. And there was famously a delegate, i think, in north dakota who stood up on a chair and yelled down with walter whitman. A few hours later there are republican delegates on the floor with shouting at rockefeller, you lousy lover. I mean, it was that intense. It was a culture war. Cspan what did that mean, by the way you lousy lover . Guest ing it was a reference that he had divorced his first wife and married a woman who in the popular press was portrayed as having, quote, abandoned her children in order to marry him. Cspan what were the suckers about the divorce the circumstances about the divorce can and the remarriage to Happy Rockefeller, and is whats her full name . Guest margaretafidler married to james murphy. Exactly when the relationship began is murky. I believe it began earlier than has been suggested until now cspan what does that mean . Guest the mid 1950s. Most accounts suggested the 1958 campaign when she worked in rockefellers gubernatorial campaign. But in any event the marriage one of the things i discovered in the course of researching this book was that a year went by, i mean, between when nelson wanted to announce a divorce and the actual announcement. There were people around him who even then there were people in 1958 who had talked him out of getting a divorce before he ran for governor. They argued that this would kill your political career before it gets off the ground. He reluctantly went along. But its very clear, certainly from then on, that left to his own devices, he intended to end his marriage to todd and if at all possible marry happy murphy. And the circumstances were treated remember, this is taylor and burton. Its a different culture. And, you know hollywood adulterers, you know, 10,000 people turned out for the World Premiere of cleopatra a month after the Rockefeller Murphy marriage, you know . They were celebrated. But for a politician and thats actually, thats an important part of nelsons unwitting legacy. The fact of the matter is, um, really beginning with his divorce and remarriage and spectacularly advancing the suckers surrounding his death the circumstances surrounding his death, the media took a whole different approach to distinguishing what was public and what was private. And we can argue over whether that has been good for democracy, but theres little doubt that he played a very significant role. Today i dont think the circumstances surrounding his divorce and remarriage would have nearly as great an impact. But you have to remember the Republican Party, you know, in 1962 63 64 was also a culturally, probably more conservative than the rest of the country. Jack kennedy great best line in the book i found in drew pearsons unpublished diary. He couldnt believe that rockefeller would risk everything by getting a divorce. He told kay graham no man would ever love love more than politics, which probably tells you more about him than anything else. But it does sum up the prevailing view. Cspan did you happen to ask Happy Rockefeller when you were with her for that half a day anything about the personal relationship . Guest yeah, she talked very candidly about it. I remember telling her something that bill scranton had said to me cspan who was bill scranton . Guest former governor of pennsylvania, recently deceasedment deceased. Close to rockefeller personally politically. Certainly because of his own main lane connections he knew both cspan and ran for president. Guest and ran in 64. He liked them both. He thought todd was very intelligent, he liked her, but he always thought that she and nelson were mismatched. I said, what do you mean . He said, well, you have to understand, nelson was a man more than most who needed warmth. He said dont make the mistake of automatically equating that with sex. Nelson needed warmth. And ive i understand exactly what he meant. And happy is a very warm woman. Happy could give him, really what todd couldnt. Thats a factor. The thing about that whole relationship that i think this book really breaks ground, and its only possible because of the passage of time, if you go back and you read coverage of the time and read coverage since, every single account of the rockefeller divorce and remarriage is couched in political terms. Its seen through the lens of what did this cost him, and why on earth, you know, did he take that risk . What no one has ever asked until now and, obviously, what i was interested in getting from Happy Rockefeller was forget politics for just a moment. What were the emotional compensations that nelson got that made him overlook whatever risks . She told me point black they never discuss can pointblank they never discussed the political consequences. I believe her. She also told me something very [laughter] very poignant and shrewd at the same time. She went to New Hampshire and campaigned in 64. She was in the early well no. In the not so early stages of a pregnancy. But she went to New Hampshire and percent most part people were for the most part people were very friendly. There were people who were anything but friendly. And she was standing on a church, the steps of a church and these women come up and say, oh mrs. Murphy, you havent brought your children with you today which is about as nasty as you can get. And she said she learned something at that moment. She said whenever someone says something horrible to you you counter with a compliment. And she said, she said [laughter] my, thats a lovely dress you have on. And it disarms it maybe even shames that may be too much to hope for but its an interesting observation. And it runs against the sort of popular notion that this was a woman who was, you know totally unversed in politics. Nelson rockefeller had enormous faith in her judgment, in her view of the man of the street. And i still believe, although she downgrades her role in this, i think she was a pivotal part of his decision to move on the abortion issue. New york repealed its old abortion laws, and when the Legislature Two years later moved to repeal the repeal under pressure from the church he vetoed that action. And the Supreme Court in roe v. Wade less than a year later used some of nelsons same arguments in upholding a womans right to choose. Cspan if i countered right counted right, he was married to Happy Rockefeller for half the time, 16 years, that he was married to todd. It was 32 years. How old would Happy Rockefeller be today . Guest happy would be 88. Cspan how many of all of his children are is still alive . Guest well, of course okay. He had five chirp by todd and five children by todd and two by happy. Of those eight, six are is still living. The oldest son, rodman born in 1932 died several years ago. And then, of course many years ago there was a tragedy, almost greek tragedy. It was like three days after they announced that they were separating that the word came from todays indonesia that michael rockefeller, the youngest son from his first marriage and the one everyone agrees to whom he was the closest and for whom he entertained the highest hopes was lost. Cspan how old was he . Guest michael would have been 22, 23. Cspan did anybody ever find out what happened to him . Guest no. And i think horrible as the experience was at the time, i think the family has been haunted to some degree exploited, but certainly haunted ever since by continual efforts to dredge this up to spin all sorts of horrific theories about how he may have died. Cspan you notice i havent asked you about the last chapter yet. Guest i do notice. Cspan lets go to 1968 where he makes an announcement in 1968 for president. Today i announce my act of candidacy for nomination by the Republican Party for the presidency of the united states. [applause] i shall do everything i can with all my energy now and in the weeks before the National Convention to bring before the people the dimensions of the problems as i see them and how i believe as a free people we can meet them. I believe firmly that true unity is forged by full examination of the facts and the free interchange of honest convictions. And, very simply by taking this course at this time, i feel i can best serve my country. [applause] cspan now, this is off the subject right there but its as i watched him reading, i go pack to the very go back to the very first thing you wrote, the very first two words in your book Nelson Rockefeller suffered from dyslexia. Guest thats right. By the way, he didnt know until he was 50 years old old. He went through his life of believing he had a low iq. That it was, in effect an intellectual deficiency. And so he took his mothers advice from a very early age which was always surround yourself with people who are smarter than you which helps to explain the task forces and the experts and the panoply of gurus who surrounded, who surrounded rockefeller. He couldnt spell, he was not a natural speaker from a text, but he compensated. He learn