North korea expert, scholar and author for the sister, dr. Sungyoon lee. His bio is on the website, but i do want highlight that outside of his Academic Work research. Chair dr. Lee has been an Expert Witness for us congressional. Hearings on north korea policy, including the Otto Warmbier versus dprk trial this evening. We have a unique opportunity to hear his insights about country that keeps us awake, continues to present challenging policy problems for the region and beyond and. As if that werent difficult enough to try to the pathology of secretive kim that leads it joining dr. Lee is our very own Emma Whitmyer easy Society Policy institute officer, Program Officer will interview dr. Lee and then conduct a q a with the audience. Emma was previously a fellow with the south Korean Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Now we get the program underway, which is why you are here. I want to first thank dr. Lee for taking time to speak here. We are delighted for this opportunity to host you for what we anticipate is going to be a very insightful conversation and. His book is available for purchase in baghdad, please. But just let me know. Have them signed by dr. Lee and i would also like to thank our members for your support to this program and all our programs here at asia society. I made possible, because of you and to you and if you are not a member or patron, we obviously this is the best day to become one. So please, you know, if you want to become a member, let us know by calling john and then i will help you with that because every member and patron are important for us to continue this work that we have been doing for over 60 years. Please visit, our website to find out more about our work is a sliding org. To become a member, subscribe to our newsletter and to get involved. And let me also invite you to our recent the current exhibition more than 50 years of new japan. We just opened this this just opened a few days ago. So im i want to make sure that, you know, you come back to visit our exhibition this is part of our year long existence you have japan programing at asia society and i would like to ask you to please make phone keep it in silence and we aim for a interactive session after. The conversation between am i and dr. Lee. We have a mic for your questions. Please raise your hands. This meeting on the record and even is being recorded and well upload the video on website. So thank you again for joining. Please come back. Please visit our museum with that ama over to you everyone. Welcome the asia society. Delighted to you here this evening for this thought provoking conversation with dr. Lee and his new book, the sister road north Koreas Kim Yo Jong most dangerous woman. As soon and youve mentioned my name is Emma Whitmyer and a Program Officer here at the asia policy institute. Also, sanjeev mentioned we have many exciting programs and events taking place here at the asia society this fall, such as meiji modern, as well as a discussion between asia Society Policy institutes president Danny Russell and Us Ambassador to japan rahm emmanuel. On friday, october 20th. We hope youll come back to check out these programs and if youre interested in more about culture, education and policy, please consider signing up for our newsletter. Now on to our guest this evening. He is a fellow at the woodrow International Center for scholars and previously taught korean history at tufts university. Hes written on of the Korean Peninsula for numerous including the New York Times, the wall street journal and the Washington Post. Hes testified as Expert Witness at the us house of represented Foreign AffairsCommittee Hearings on north policy and has advised senior leaders, including the president of the United States. Please join me in welcoming dr. Lee. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much thank you to the asia society for this opportunity to share with you my leanings the north korean family with a focus kim yo jong and thank ladies and gentlemen everyone for taking the time out of your very busy schedule to be here this evening would you like me to address some what i deem to be some salient issues, some arguments that i try to make in the book . Would you please do . Yeah. Id like to know why you chose write this book on kim yo jong and what makes her to be so dangerous. Well, you know, been sort of obsessed with this family regime over the last 20 years as a young graduate student, i knew little about north korea is kind of common among south korean citizens there is pervasive apathy indifference even to things north korean in south which is hard to explain. But that is unfortunately the case. And as i began to read up on the grotesque Human Rights Violations going on inside north korea, just a few miles from where my family in south korea, lives as i understood as i came to learn about these political prisoner concentration camps. I a bit embarrassed that i knew so little about these ongoing crimes against humanity. So that was the portal for human rights issues for me to study about korea. And of course the regime plays the key role in perpetuating this kind of misery, hunger and oppression. Kim yo jong, to me is especially interesting because she is the first preeminent, powerful full leader of the family, clan of the royal house to hold real in public and to serve as the deputy, the dear supreme to her brother. She has issued over 40 formal written statements since onset of covid since early march 20, 20, under her name, it is very clear that she is the show her nations toward the united south korea and much of world she says so herself. She says that by Authority Vested in her by comrade chairman, her brother, by the party, the Workers Party of korea and by the state, i shall henceforth pursue the following steps. And this was in june 2020. And she warned that this quote useless the north south liaison power inside north korean territory built entirely and maintained entirely with. South korean funds will soon be gone. She warned that it that warning in a written statement on june 13th, 2020 and three days later demolished it was earlier in the month in the same month on june 4th at about 6 15 a. M. , kim yo jong issued a written statement calling on south korea to pass a new law criminalizing dissent of anti dprk north korean regime leaflets and just about anything else that many north korean emigres former defectors turned out archivists do, sending in to korea not only leaflets denouncing regime, but also basic like a pair of socks a bar of soap, 1 bills, copies of the bible, you know, these two toothpaste tooth product things are in critical, short in north korea. The regime doesnt like that, of course. So she issued this order almost a decree calling on south korea to criminalize such activities by a new criminal law. Amazingly, 4 hours later, the chief spokesman of the south Korean Ministry of unification called for an unscheduled press conference and said, we will work on it right away. And just one hour later, other government chimed in that. The defense ministry, the foreign ministry, the blue house, the president ial, arguing that sending leaflets brings all harm. Good. We will pass such law and it was passed so that vignette even just that that she was to extend southward across the border her nation brutal censorship. Speaks to her standing her power her influence. This is something that her grandfather, kim il sung, the founder, could not achieve, nor for her father, kim jong, who died in 2011, who her brother kim jong un. But by virtue her identity, a young woman, relatively young, female deputy leader, shes able to get away a lot more than, say, invective coming from her, less photogenic, surly looking brother just because shes a young, pretty woman. She can get away with a lot. We are more prone to forgetting forgiving her potty mouth, invective when she returns to a post provocation, peace when north korea calls for and smiling. You know, they embrace they shake hands with various world leaders. The next time we see that she will be the face our nation leading, her nations diplomacy, and we will many of us, due to the pervasive to patronize young women, pervasive in men. I would also respectfully suggest some women, too. We will underestimate her, forgive her for all our sins rudeness and want, believe her and even want to, that shes malleable, that we have some control over. We can teach, or either this is a fallacy, a dangerous one or one. So she a major new weapon in her nations diplomatic toolkit. Thank you, dr. Lee. I think, yes, Kim Kim Yo Jong plays a very unique in your book. You describe her being very attentive and taking over responsibilities very much as an aide to her brother and holding ashtray for him at some points. But you also describe her as a mother like figure. And i wonder what the significance is of her being a woman plays and tells us about north korean leadership and she being taken seriously. Yeah, weve seen or bring with alacrity a month long penned for her brother to sign various agreement and scarce books and so forth and she was caught on film on a 70 hour long train ride to vietnam in february 20, 19 for the second summit meeting with President Trump at nighttime and the two siblings were caught on camera he was having a smoke hes a chain smoker and she was holding respectfully with both hands what looked to be a very expensive fancy crystal ashtray. And many people saw that and said shes kind of served aisle to her brother. Shes his secretary. Theres element, too. But i see in the two siblings genuine affection and genuine trust. Ive watched literally hundreds hours of north korean video documentaries and show scenes that you dont find in south korean or other people with documentary shown in other nations. The two seem to genuinely like each other. They often smile at each other, at each other during occasions of official events, they still glimpses of each other and then kind of smile like this as if to communicate. This day is going swimmingly know i think he really trusts her because shes capable and of course because she is her brother. I dont see anyone within the family who for now and for the next foreseeable lets say 15 years is a viable candidate for top leadership. If kim jong un were to become incapacitated today or next year or even ten years from now, his children are very young, as we know, ten, 11, 12 or so people and what can a 12 year old son or daughter do until they reach maturity issue, written statement, give a public speech receive a foreign delegation leader nations delegation to south korea, to vietnam or china. I dont so so although north korea, we know is a brutally dominated, chauvinistic society and culture. I would say that keeping power within the family and having one of their own directors, cendant or kim jong un, kim jong it. And so one assumes the throne that supersedes any cultural, political biases so for the next ten, maybe 15 years. I think shes only viable candidate to emerge as the Supreme Leader her gender notwithstanding. You touched on kim jong uns daughter, kim jae, or kim jong. And id like to know, as were starting to see her come out into the press and taking more photos together with her father, is this kim jong way of showing a more human or fatherly figure, or is this symbolic of the future that he is trying to build in north korea . I think this is a leader mind trick like jedi, mind trick. You know, its psychological manipulation of primarily the United States in project ing or soft or family man. I think kim un is saying simultaneously, hello, our nukes are here to stay. My daughter, my will inherit my nukes when the time comes you whether its biden or president yoon in seoul or any leader of a democracy, come and go via elections you will not stay here two or three years from now, youll be gone. Whereas im here to stay and turn power down to my next generation. Theres that to sort of boasting, but i think the more Important Message is, you know, self humanization, projecting the image of a loving father. What does that achieve. Well, by repetition. Through repetition one day and a president in the white house come to say, well, its really virtually impossible to roll their Nuclear Weapons program. And obviously hes a family man. He loves his daughter. Maybe hes not nuts. Maybe hes not bonkers after all maybe we can learn to learn we can learn to live with north korean Nuclear Weapons. I think that kind of. That kind of adjustment, a new reality is what north korea wants to achieve by projecting this happy image. All father and daughter in the beginning of your book, you include the mount paektu family tree, which i think is a really great visual understanding how the different branches interact with each other. And i notice the inclusion of kim jong uns children. However, there is no inclusion of children kim yo jong is kim yo jong married. Does she have a husband . Does she have children . We dont know when she visited south korea for the Opening Ceremony of the Winter Olympics in 2018. The next day she visited the blue house. The president s office and mingled with various south korean senior officials. Of course, throughout her two night, three day stay, she reportedly told her south Korean Counterparts that shes, yes, married and has children and may even have said she was pregnant at that time due to deliver her next child sometime in the next couple of months or so. And internet sleuths around the world observed at the time that she looks a bit not really visibly very starkly different but you know maybe a bit a bulge around her midsection. And when she showed up again made a big high profile event. Her brothers summit meeting with the south korean president in the interkorean panmunjom on april 27th, 2018. She looked visibly thinner. So people believe that at some point between early february and late april, she may have given birth to her second or third child. We dont know, but none of this can be confirmed. She turned six just a few days ago. So its reasonable to assume she does have children and is married if she were to become Supreme Leader one day, what would happen for her next leader . Would it be her children or would it go back to kim jong uns children . Well, i think its sort of human nature about once you emerge as the Supreme Leader, its very hard to relinquish that kind of absolute power. North korea is an absolutist monarchy of the medieval age. You its they pretend to be a democracy see where theres gender equality all those good things but it a brutal absolute monarchy. And once you seize that kind of absolute power i think its virtually impossible voluntarily give that power struggle. You know fratricide weve seen in the north korean family killing the step brother, killing a nephew in 1997 who defected to south korea upon the orders of jong il, kim jong ils nephew was killed. Weve seen the uncle jang song peg in late 2013. So fracture his side, the party side of this side, i looked up these words in the dictionary killing of uncle and nephew and those things. Its a staple of the north korean way life. So what happens the future . Will there be a power between the aunt and the niece . Nephew . One cannot rule it out at that point. I guess the interesting fictional speculative storyline becomes who will strike first . Will the having held real power about to be relegated to role of a regent . An adviser will not remember. Will she forget her harrowing experience in colluding with the brother to have the uncle that raffle nipping winter of 2013 . I think memories will linger. Weve seen a rekindled relationship. I would say between Vladimir Putin and kim jong un this year and. Kim jong un recently traveled to vladivostok, russia for the far eastern summit. I dont believe we saw kim yo jong on this this trip actually, she was on the trip. She was. And she was seen wearing a very expensive back. I mean, the very rich know suits. Its an interesting, you know, thing to note. But they live like kings the nations poor, the are starving but the royal is super filthy rich and quite large consumers of and luxury vehicles. Yes yes. Id like to know on this recent that kim jong un took how it differs from the one mentioned in your story so met with in the Russian Far East at a spacex rocket launch facility in mid september or september 12. It the first time that kim jong un traveled outside his country, his sister too since the onset of covid and last time he had traveled outside his country and held a summit meeting with the world leader was with putin in april 2019. That trip did not go very well for kim jong un because kim jong un was told on the day of his meeting with putin that putin had places to go next day that he would be flying down to beijing, china, for a very Important International meeting. The second belt and road conference. Whats the problem there . Well, had assumed that the next morning putin would join him in a wreath laying at of a veterans cemetery. But moreover, its a breach of diplomatic protocol. If you have a foreign head state visiting you in your country you try your best, not leave that person hanging. And by you know this giving the signal that have people to meet places to go youre just a tourist have a nice time. Normally you try to avoid that unpleasant situation. But not only putin did that leave his country while kim jong un was still in russia, but revealed it to kim at the very last minute. So how did kim take this . He and putin met for about 4 hours from about