Hell be speaking tonight with kara executive editor of recode host of the recode decode podcast hot on the trail of the story since the very beginning. Now before we get started adam and know each other so take 40 seconds to introduce yourself to one of your neighbors. Okay thats had the perfect amount of friendship always dangerous and back to me wonderful. Now if you enjoyed meeting your new friend sometimes ourst rasic informed members which if you come out of the build just to your left so feel free to join us there afterwards if you would like. Now, anybody who is not been here before . Awesome if you dont know we do fantastic rams like this and dozens of times year so if it is your first time lets not have it be your last. Few great programs at inform if you read fantastic mod person love New York Times column about 36 questions to fall in love well have author mandy on july 11th. A panel on criminal justice system, and the private prison problem on july 18th. 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You so healthy all right we have a lot to talk about so im going to start with this which i was to say and move on to a company that has been in the news of late. Some things have been happening there especially yesterday. Hi everybody welcome to tonights program with inform at the a Commonwealth Club im kara executive editor of recode and host of the code podcast pleasure to be talking with friend thats accurate executive editor of fortune, best selling author of insight apple here to talk about his latest book diving deep into crazy world of text. And appalling world of tech really. Wild ride ubers quest for world domination. Hello. Hello kara. Hello, so i texted excuse me we have a title executive editor i didnt know that. Thats night. Excuse me for interrupting interesting when were talking about uber. So lets start with are the news of yesterday. And then i want to get into the book itself, obviously, has been an interesting story but i think news is included all of the history of uber, and people really do care about what is happening there now. So let me get your assessment yesterday was a superbusy day, and a down to the wire travis finally decided to leave after a lot of pressure. Hes the ceo in the course of the day, they relesioned recommendations that in any other company could have gotten ceo fired and then by the end of the day a board member had to resign because he told a joke that wasnt funny in any way on the stage about it was essentially form about problem of Sexual Harassment and uber told a guck joke to another director and it was a woman exactly. So talk to me since were just a day late essentially. The couple of interesting things to me. One is as you pointed out they released eric holders recommendation they did not release his findings. Findings would be far more interesting. Ill be releasing those soon. Good im looking forward to that. Sure everybody else is me too. You know the details of what he found so in other words you have to infer everything from the recommendations and you might infer a fair amount but not a lot l you dont know scale, details and dirt which again is where you where you will come in other thing that i think is interest i prefer to expose ridiculous behavior on part of overprivileged white men in Silicon Valley anyway but go ahead. Move along. Like i said okay. So i think if you want to, you know, you made point that any other company would have these recommendations qowf included firing of the ceo. I thought the precise wording of traviss email to employees was interesting. First of all hes taking a leave of absence of undetermined length. So that could be monday or it could be 2019 and that he will continue to be involved i believe the way he put it was with the most strategic decision. I read that as him not leaving at all. Right. Not stepping down you know stepping down as ceo is sort of beside the point. So i think i think where youre going with this is that it is not over clearly not over. Why do you think that, tell me because it is interesting situation because let me get become to the idea that it wasnt just that there were issues with company that report. Ive had parts read to me quite devastating a culture out of control never builds. Run badly break next u Sexual Harassment. Sexism all kinds of things like it was like as if the Silicon Valley problems concentrate themselves in one company. And so you think that hes still in power that hes pulling the pulling the i dont know how much. But i just think even what we saw yesterday theres clear evidence that he is. Again, i cant quantify or qualify it baa he said i will be involved under most strategic decision. So the question is why. How or how is was he able to hang on. I think e weve known for quite a while that he has the ability to control the board through the form of his share and ac wee and thats where he was six weeks or a month ago. Was until 9 30 that morning. So things change. And he he was in this. But he didnt in leaving. Flrve so what explain where that is through the board structure. He and his friend and a close colleague garrett camp true founder of uber essentially control everything. Why is camp sticking so closely to him . You know, people have asked me as ive been be out talking about the book why wasnt camp the ceo why did camp turn over the reign of uber so willingly to travis so early. And my my answer has been among the many controversial things that have gone with the company that wasnt one of them nobody said garrett should have run iewb or i think and ive heard many say to me that garrett camp was grateful from beginning that traves took this thing that garrett had had created and he created, you know, many Little Things like what this little uber cab thing was in 2009. And made it into uber so i think garrett example was comfortable with that and been grateful. First to take serious money out of the company and grateful to traftion for that. And so i just i dont think it is anymore complicated than that. He doesnt want more serious money because at this point, you imagine this company go public with that with that ceo . Because public going public is the goal presumably of the company. You know, i dont even before this week. Even before last month i didnt think they were going to go public any time soon so a lot can change but 2019 a long time from now. I understand. Dog years. Silicon valley time. Intdz that but nots dog years in in terms of being a financial leader and public company, correct . Yeah. I understand, and what you know what we can discuss the morality of it. But we know that Silicon Valley venture capitalist will tolerate almost anything if they can make it make their all mighty buck and i think theres ample evidence that the same is true for public shareholders again almost no evidence of well i shouldnt say theres certainly been instances that ceos of being drummed out for one transgression or another im not saying people dont care or saying that, you know, its a slam dunk that kalanick will be ceo when they go public but it doesnt. It wont shock me. So more out of sight not morals i agree with you. I think theres a lot of issue around how criminal indictments surround several different things. I suspect if anthony who uber ultimately fires faces any kind of criminal any kind of criminal problems i dont imagine he would not roll over. And point upward presumably thats how it seems to work. Those are the kind of things im more interested in. Yeah. So huge, and exposheen threat and forgive me for he thinking the book but to your question which is you know, the final chapter includes anecdote where Travis Kalanick back for hour it is from headquarters down to Ferry Building almost to golden gate bridge. Such a thing with internet executives taking a long walk. I think steve yobs is like a walker, talk talker too. Believe me i would rather have been sitting at a table taking notes with my reporter sitting on your lawn. Instead walking down the Street Holding my recorder in my hand praying right that im getting. So i did. Youre on walk of on a bro mantic walk me and my buddy, and i do remember where i was going with this. He told me at some point during it that conversation that, you know, theres one other person i take this walk with frequently but i cant tell you who it is yet. Anthony and this was before the autopurchase which was why he couldnt why he couldnt tell me about it. And you know i had published that other people have published that they walked together. The the judge has specifically said that hes allowing wamo to interview anybody who has had had any intersection with leive do that means that content, content and context of their conversations while they were having this bromantic walk will be germane and serious because wamo is alleging theft of explain that. Wamo is i dont think it is a terrible name. I would agree. Wamo is renamed goolings google selfdriving car unit not part of google now but part of alphabet a better bet. But wamo has sued uber because it says that anthony who worked as engineer for the goolings selfdriving unit when thats what it was called left. Sold for 640 million quickly to uber, and they are they alleged this was ubers way of stealing their technology and e in this is that this hangt happened yet but if next step qowb that fraudulent behavior not merely stealing of trade secret. And didnt sue anthony but uber and more assets and to knock them out of the box. Yeah. Well and because maybe they did something wrong. They know crazy dngts matter. All sorts of ways to do something wrong. Also it is an uber has tried to settle to go to mediation, judge disallowed that. uber actually would rather write a check and my only point is that Google Alphabet doesnt seem to be interested in receiving check. Google need money does he. Right. Theyre kind of rich. We just reengtsly had ruth on stage our conference and talked that and i said google never, in fact, google usually pays people they dont like even to leave. Even if theyre like i said well you dont usually sue poem and she said we dont usually sue people but youre suing uber shes yes thats dirchghts. I think theyre very intense on taking this town down to the wire and getting to the book because all this does matter in terms of what is going to what to this this company. I think much more serious trouble than most do and starting to change the world and this mug gnashes in your face ceo who is just such a character kind of thing. Tell me sort of what you were thinking about when you wanted true, when i started which was when i started thinking about it in 2014 or so and what had what i was witnessing was this company that being at that point barely four years old had had already expanded around the world very quickly of course they done it in their second year of operation. And that fascinates me in particular because i had just i was only at that point 18 months out of publishing book about apple. And uber wouldnt have been able to go around the World Without the iphone without the app store. App store receiver where. Iphone receiver where and uber everywhere quickly in a way that startups couldnt have done in another era that other era five or ten years earlier. And others that have come out of the next era of Silicon Valley. When i think was compelling was that both with the internet and Digital Software company and a hard asset people that were involved like regulators and Transportation Networks the way they stood facebook and google and even with apple was justin internet company. What does that represent from your perspective . The next stage of these kinds of companies if you put them in buckets or phases of evolution from the companies that existed around microsoft or intel than those that existed around facebook and twitter. Could you think made them stand out . That had a lot to do with the early years to preside over to relatively failed startups with a difficult relationship everything ended in tears for this guy and he created a lot of trouble so they needed to be motivated by that. I dont think necessarily what motivated him . But with success with uber there was of a period of time the cabana were controversial statement. But clearly he is stubborn man persisted and relentless that became important with uber but the part that i think is interesting as part of the founding team. Essentially not napster so it started and failed more quickly they and napster but that it intended to be legitimate and that was and then it was down to one person that was him at one point and to see if Silicon Valley would consider a lot of money. So the point that i was striving to that happened in 2008. I know the people that were modest and successful i met him after uber was starting to go up in 2010. But he was a player in the world so there is a lot of luck involved and by the way although steve case did not found aol. And from that take away but that is the important point so he was the founder. Spending time with his parents and his bader was a Civil Engineer i think . And brother is a firefighter that is modest but lovely. [laughter] so where is the mean mom . And it is interesting because it is an unusual place. Above to tell you about Travis Kalanick what was his rosebud . He told me the story of the book of the indian guide. They dont call them that any more but the program run by the ymca. And that was ted years before travis and he tells me the story of a fundraising drive for a camping trip and the indian guide but to that he bent and he was bound and determined to sell those pancakes. So he would stay there until the wee hours of the night so he was being beaten in the basement or his hardworking father i dont know. And then to have dead animal heads with his waffles but but then to talk about bullying and being bullied. He was an athlete also a mathlete of sorts so he played both of those positions he would tell stories to be bullied for being catered. But i did not get the sense that they were emotional a lot of kids get teased. So talking about his personality that is the explanation for a lot of people in Silicon Valley. What did you come to the conclusion . The cliche they love to talk about they had that in the sense for a new bird came along you might get picked up you might not. And they figured out abundantly. That is a cliche but i remember feeling that. It is a big market and they hit that hard. But they built that up doing it with the limousine. And to ride around town. It does recall them saying that years ago. So the story that i loved to tell the first time i had met him i dont know if i had written uber yet or not but i can watch for progress to make sure she got home and pay for it. I have a great idea and could not have spent less interested. [laughter] your business. Not mine. Now were getting to the Sexual Harassment. But it was a product. But lyft was trying to organize rides on in corporate or University Campuses to make this into a way to power but once they realized they were beaten they could move quickly but they were already established dollar around the country. So how are the differences . I dont know how to even describe them but to come over one time to say the reason im doing is because 80 percent of the cars are not in use and that is wrong for the planets. Fake about that. S just wrong and i feel that i can save the world. And they said travis will kill him. [laughter] and uber talks about that and use inventory. Even the offices you get a foot massage when you go to uber because then it will open up. So though war room is a perfect example. So what was the difference between the two . The way you introduce that to be the ceo and founder but we all go with what we got. But that is today are a and uber is today are. Not to push around those regulators to pop off with a statement at its any 1. P. S. This is due Travis Kalanick is it is and i a corporate strategy. No question in my mind although it is hard to separate the bravado from the actions because lyft was the first to do that and they said we dont think these rules apply to us budget uber and they said this is illegal and we have concerns that we better do it quickly where we will be beat so yes day lead with their chin. And with that regulatory issues to be completely transparent. We dont care we will go wintus start operating in then to get those drivers and riders at our side. And then to say how much they love those uber rides but even to go back through history just one sneaky move but they do all kin