Transcripts For CSPAN3 Daniel 20240704

Welcome to politics and prose. Im brad graham, the coowner of, the bookstore along with my wife alice in and were very pleased to be hosting a journalist Daniel Schulman whos to talk about his new book, the money kings the epic story of the jewish who transformed wall street and shaped modern. Adam daniels. The Deputy Washington Bureau chief mother jones, and also has had success as an author. His previous book, nearly ten years ago, sons of wichita, a biography of the cook family, was a bestseller and received critical acclaim. His new books is an expansive history of the german who came to the united in the 19th century and helped create the the modern Financial System while managing their own identities as , bankers and americans. Some of the names highlight it by daniel. Names like Goldman Sachs and lehman will be familiar to. Too many others like schiff and seligman, not so much, but all had very significant roles in transform the United States into a financial and underwriting of the 20th centurys major companies. These powerful jewish families of new york were. Profiled 57 years ago and steven birminghams bestselling book, our crowd. But that as daniel notes in his introduction was this basically a work of social history . While his is intended as of a financial political and philanthropic one, daniel confesses at the outset that he was somewhat reluctant to write this with its portrait of these germanjewish dynasties. Xers sizing their wealth and their power as someone who is himself. Daniel worried such a history coming at a time. Surging antisemitism could reinforce conspiracy theories about jewish influence having undue impact. But he went ahead with the book, as he puts it, that there is no better way to counter lies than to tell stories in full. The result is a book reviewers have praised as illuminate, spirited and richly detailed with characters rendered in all their complexities. The Financial Times commended the book as, quote, a timely corrective to historical distortions that have helped feed antisemitic deism. In conversation with daniel this evening. Be emily tamkin a journalist whos reported for foreign Buzzfeed News and Washington Post. And and shes edited for the new statesman. Shes also written two books that echo some the themes in the money kings, one about the influence george soros, the other history of the past 100 years of American Jewish politics and identities. So, ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming Daniel Schulman and emily tamkin. Okay . Okay. Good evening and thank you all so much for coming out this evening to discuss this wonderful, wonderful new book, the money kings. So i have to confess i first read the book cause i was one of the reviewers who who lauded it for the Washington Post and and i was you know, i, i started it thinking that it was going to sort of a portrait of these individuals who created these Financial Institutions and shaped American Economy as we know it and so on and so forth. And as the author of a book on American Jewish identity and politics, you can imagine how i was at finding. It was also a superb portrait of American Jewish politics and identities. Its its so my first question for you is, how dare you know. My first question is, you know, these are two very rich themes, right . The of the the construction of these Financial Institutions and American Jewish life and what it means and how these jewish individuals figured out what it meant to be jewish individuals in this country. How did you balance these these themes in your head and in the or did you think of them as two different themes at all . It took me eight years to write this, so i had plenty of time to figure out how to balance all these things. But what was very interesting about. These this topic is in many ways, these two things were intertwined. You know, if im writing about jacob schiff, whos one of the main characters in my book and his funding, the japanese in the russojapanese war. This wasnt just a finance he was doing because he wanted to put pressure on the russians are who was oppressing the people. So all came back to a jewish. So in many ways, i found it easy to weave this narrative through the book. Okay. So with that as our sort of appetizer, you know, we heard a bit about your your first book, how i guess. Do you see the second book as flowing from the first one . And if how and how did you decide to write it . I think it did flow from the first one in that the the my my first book was about the coke family and that a story about dynasty and about legacy and about power and about influence and about wealth all of these same themes flow through the money kings as well. I sort of fell into this book in ways. I mean i was looking for a new subject and my way of doing is just to start reading a lot and start ordering extremely obscure books. Amazon and or from politics for politics, right . More politics and prose and. And i just topics that interest me and i started researching on this wave of anarchist violence that occurred in this country in the early 20th century that culminated with the of wall street in 1920. And as i was researching, i came across the name jacob schiff because he had been one of the recipients of one of these anarchists letter bombs and. I just my my eyes just widened. I started started to read about him and his life. And i just wondered why there had never been a major biography of schiff. And thats sort of led me to this topic. And you know, theres also personal connection to the material in that my paternal grandparent s are were immigrants from, the area known as the pale settlement that that piece of territory, the fringe of the of the russian where the largest Jewish Population lived the turn of the century. And my paternal grandparents immigrated to the United States in the early hundreds of a very common story settled in brooklyn. But i came to realize that their story in the United States and mine would not have been possible without schiff and the other and his allies who i write in this book. I just want to just not press, but just go a little a little further into that, because there are people in this book there are figures in this book with whom everyone in this room will have been familiar and you could have sort of centered your book on any one of them. So if you could speak a bit about why jacob schiff and i should say every book in every individual you come across in this book is really richly drawn. Like, its not that theres its not that any figure you come across seems a bit character or or that theyre not fully fleshed out. They are, but in as much as it has a protagonist, its schiff. So could you speak a bit more about about why schiff you know, schiff is not very well remembered today. And in part, thats because he didnt necessarily care to be who he was during his era. He was the most prolific Jewish Philanthropy of his time, but he was also one of the Top Investment bankers, his era. He was hes often, as you know, second only to j. P. Morgan, but he wasnt second only to j. P. Morgan. He was at least as consequential as j. P. Morgan. If not more. So when you look at the breadth of his legacy, which is not just finance, but really the fact that theres a thriving america and Jewish Community today that wouldnt have been without him. He was the dominant figure in American Jewish life. There was no no philanthropic undertaking, no political advocacy, nothing that would have occurred without it going across his desk. So so thats why even though names such as goldman and sachs lehman are much more wellknown today, thats why is the main character of this story. Hmm. Now, before we get too much farther, too much further along, i want to i want to ask you the title as the author of a book called bad. Im not sure how you got away with calling something as controversial as the money kings now. My question is my question. I mean, you know it is not a provocative title but it does carry within it. You know a certain is this is a book about money and power. And this came up in the introduction and like i guess i was hoping to hear a bit more you on the and how on how you handled the responsibility of being a jewish journalist and author is aware both of the history and also of all of these stereotypes. Right. And how do you delve into subjects like finance and and philanthropy, and power and without without sort of feeding the stereotypes or giving in to the fear of feeding the stereotypes. Thats a really excellent question. So the money kings was one that was applied to the top moguls of the gilded age, not just jewish ones. It was jacob schiff was often called money king, but so was j. P. Morgan. Rockefeller. So, you know, as was researching this book, as i was researching the life of jacob schiff and his what i discovered that was that the only people that currently seemed to care about who he was and what he had was neonazis and white nationalists who cherry picked from life story, lied about certain of it, but in service of creating and bolstering antisemitic conspiracy theories. So i it was really more important than ever to write about where some of this stuff came, write about the origins, tell the stories of schiff and Marcus Goldman and sachs in full and not to do a hedgehog fee, not to steer away from controversial subjects or or, you know, complexities, not to bury. Story of jacob schiff funding japanese in the russojapanese war, which the bedrock of many antisemitic conspiracy theories. So what i did was i just felt like it was important to confront of this head on and the reason the book is called money kings is because, you know, at the end of the day, it upset me to think that jp morgan could be a money king and thats not a problem. Jacob schiff cant be a money king. Jacob schiff has to live in the gilded ghetto and so thats why the book is called the money kings. I think its i we cant i personally dont want to live within the frame of antisemitism that was created to other jewish people. I mean, theres no that should be ashamed of what schiff or Marcus Goldman or the lehmans did. Its incredible. But because of all of these anti semitic stereotypes and i get into where and how they originated and, its very much modern antisemitism stems back to period and it was a in some cases to what men like schiff had. So so thats thats the story. Yeah. I wonder if you also have the sense that that if you dont about something because, oh, that could feed into an antisemitic stereotype. Youre actually in a way, what youre doing is saying, i can control in how i act and what i write. I can control antisemitism. Which is to say that like actually antisemites are are coming up with their conspiracies based on jewish behavior, when, in fact, the whole point is that these are conspiracies divorced from reality. Absolutely. And just dont, you know, i think that these are going to exist regardless of of of what i write. But i just hope that, you know, people read the book come to understand and where some of these ideas about and money and power and influence actually come from. And once you start to understand that. You start to understand how outlandish. All of this really is. Hmm. So every in this book has money. Right. And a big dynamic of the book is this tension between and im sure many of you are familiar with this this dynamic between the german who are a bit more established and come over first and their poorer European Jewish brethren who come over later. Could you a bit about the relationship between these two, two groups . Because on the one hand, it was quite its not it neither all resentment nor all. One of charity, lets say. Absolutely. You know, when the waves of Eastern European and russian immigration occurred in the late 1800s and early 1900s, the german were pretty well established in the United States at this point. Theyd come over in the 1840s and 1850s. Theyd started build big and they, you know, established themselves in the American Social hierarchy. They had nothing in common with the eastern and russian who were immigrating, other than the fact that they were jewish. But as , they understood well, at that time that it didnt matter whether you came from russia, whether you came from frankfurt, germany, as , you might still be painted by the same brush. So schiff and his allies, you know, pulled out the stops to ensure that these waves of russian impoverished russian immigrants did not become a drag on American Resources and did not bring down the image of german. So while, you know, gave millions upon millions of dollars to build this Enormous Network that enabled these immigrants to rapidly assimilate and english lessons homes, you know. Kohl for their furnaces, you know, there was a self there was a selfinterested aspect to all of this as well. Mm hmm. Well, so one of the questions that i sort of had really get reading about these figures is that they were very clear that they felt like an important thing to do as prominent americans was to prominent positions on different philanthropic boards. So they wanted to be on the boards of universities and art museums and be in high society and felt like that was really important. And they sort of frame it in your telling as as though this is really important for. And i kind of had the thought it was like, okay, is this important for like the people on the Lower East Side, right . Or is this important for you, a person who wants to go to a dinner party and say, like, oh, im on the board, whatever, art museum . I think was probably an aspect of both the column from column being both i think both things are true but you know i know jacob philosophy on this i mean he to get trustees on the board of columbia. He tried to get jewish on the board of columbia and on at the Natural History museum. And the reason why he this was important was because believed antisemitism flowed from didnt come up from below. So if you you know, signaled that it was okay to have a in this position, i think he thought that would over help to you know, eradicate bigotry. But also, you know, i think it was these were extremely elite, wealthy people who didnt like being excluded from cultural academic institutions institutions. Theres another episode in the book that i dont want to like. I want you all to read it. So i dont want to sort of go episode by episode. But there is an episode that i thought had a lot of resonances with the modern day which is the seligman hotel affair. Would you like to speak a bit about that and about the distinction hebrews and. Oh boy. So one of the most notable antisemitic episodes in u. S. History, and this was sort of historians are sort of pointing to this as a singular episode of antisemitism. And i think its a little more complicated than that. But josef seligman was was a very prominent investment banker. And in fact, schiff sort of models himself off of Seligman Seligman died in 1880. In 1877, josef seligman, his family, go to take their customary vacation at the grand union in saratoga, new york. Theyve been going there for years. He goes to check in and is told by the hotel clerk, sorry, its actually no allowed this year. So you cant stay here and Joseph Seligman does not, you know, take kindly to that. And what ensues is headline after headline in the New York Times as seligman and judge who was basically the manager of this hotel was the manager of the estate of a of a tycoon who had own this hotel traded bar barb. And hilton made a distinction between hebrews who who he saw as the upstanding sephardic who had come to the United States earlier and and the seligman called them the seligman , which were new money, new money. And ostentatious, he said. And it just this episode ended up just whipping up a huge amount of antisemitic feeling that had been clearly boiling under the surface. And the New York Times goes out and starts Hotel Keepers in new york and elsewhere who say who now say, we actually dont want you staying here either. And you know what . When do stay here, we charge them extra. And it was a bit of a turning point in. American jewish life. And it was it was it was a psychological turning point for many whod come to the United States and thought that they were safe and thought that they had sort of gotten beyond the the prejudices that they had experienced in germany and elsewhere. And now they found they really hadnt. And what this led to was the rise of, you know, a number of jewish organizations, social clubs, golf that were, you know this a very firm division between jewish and gentile life. I mean, as i said, i think this is one episode where i read this and thought like, oh, you know, there are many instances today where somebody sort of makes headlines. And then its when when called out for dabbling in antisemitism, lets say they say, well, i have no problem with just like this group of people with jewish last names or like just the people who like this or just the just this kind of and its like it sounds like youve got a problem with. But, you know, so there theres so much in this book reminded me of the modern day. But is there anything in the process of writing it that you changed your mind about or that you think differently or made you go about antisemitism and American Jewish identity . What what surprised and i knew some of this history. But what shocked me was extent to which henry ford unleashed antisemitism. Not just this country, but throughout the world. And i was just astonished by that. And i was astonished by how much a react when you know, henry ford had a paper called the dearborn independent. For those who dont know, in starting in 1920 and for seven years and 92 issues it published a series that was called the international the worlds foremost problem not just the worlds problem, but the biggest problem in the world. It blamed for basically anything you could possibly imagine from its starting and financial panics to rise of jazz, which i think we can claim that. I dont know. Thats fine. But it was, you know, a jewish cabal was about everything. And behind everything. And the main targets of oftentimes were schiff and his partners in kuhn loeb, who it sort of identified as the very archetype, the International People that because they operated in many different countries, they were immigrants. One cuomo partner, otto kahn, had been a german citizen, had been a british citizen, been a United States citizen. But at the root of this was that this this age old canard that cannot loyal citizens, and theyre only loyal to fellow. So, yes i was i was i was extremely surprised by the role that henry ford played in modern and how there was sort of a feedback loop with germany when a New York Times reporter went and visited hitler in 1923, there a picture of a portrait ford on the wall of his office and in on the table in the anteroom to his office were german translations. The international , a compendium. All these articles the nazis were distributing them throughout germany. And so that was to me. I didnt know all of that history. Yeah, there is a sort global connectedness of jewishness that that sort of permeates the book, right . You have you have unease, oh, these immigrants are going to arrive in these jewish immigrants are going to arrive in new york city. And maybe it would be better if they were somewhere else. But you also have deep concern for in the russian empire. I why do you think you know, why do you think that the individuals that you write about didnt just say, okay, were the United States, were rich, were setting up, were setting up these Financial Institutions, like why was the russian empire and that why was that still their problem . Thats i think thats a you know, its sort of they didnt have a choice. They didnt have a choice because these these waves of immigrants were coming. They could have turned their backs, but they understood. Well, that as , they were going to be painted by the same brush and they could either help these impoverished immigrants who were coming to acclimate to acculturate and to and to make sure that they would not drag down the image of jewish people in the United States who were, you know, had climbed in the social hierarchy. But they were very aware of how tenuous their standing was. And, you know, its whats fascinating that when the first waves of immigrants came over, jacob schiff himself, like, yeah, you know, i dont know. Should we form permanent social Aid Organization to help . Just use. Is that i dont know if thats just anyone else do this. And eventually that became his his life. But there was a lot of ambivalence that right. And it wasnt only helping immigrants also, as you say, like trying to help japan beat be russia. Right. It was a very it was truly like we say now sometimes, oh, the world feels so small. But it did back then. For the that youre writing about. And again, it was all sort of inter, you know, interconnected you know, schiff was approached about financing the japanese and russo japanese war. And it wasnt just it wasnt purely just an ideological thing. It was it made some financial to do this, but it was i mean, it was it was incredible just what he what he pulled together in order to basically teach this are a lesson that was what he was after. And during this war he actually funds revolutionary propaganda that was distributed to the p. O. W. S in the japanese camps and that that became the seed conspiracy theories about how schiff supposedly caused the overthrow of the czar in 19 the czar in 1917. And i the conspiracy theories got extreme like very grandiose that he not just you know fomented overthrow of the czar but actually his assassination which of course, didnt happen. I have just a few questions left of my own and then im going to give all of you a chance to ask your question. Start start thinking. You know, speaking of global jewish politics, could you speak a bit about the ambivalence and changing opinion of and his his cohort, zionism . Thats its really interesting. How how many modern day echoes there are in what happened during era but the story of the rise of zionism is extremely fascinating. Schiff and his allies and Many American were very opposed. Zionism. Zionism was really imported by a lot of the immigrants that were coming over from eastern europe, europe and russia and it was causing just a huge amount of discontent within jewish factions in. The United States shifts that zionism created a separateness thats fatal. And he believed that was going to undergird these these tropes that had dual loyalties and. You know, they believed that people were not going to distinguish between american and, you know, and palestine and. Weve seen that sort of come full circle because its in this moment, its hard people to distinguish between israel and, you know, happens in gaza. You can cause something to happen in indianapolis or l. A. And but yes, they were they were opposed they were opposed to zionism. Now, the conversation on zionism begins to change in the final years of chefs, he was actually in the process of negotiating thing with the Zionist Organization to join the cause, which would have been a huge coup for the zionists and schiff was willing to support the settlement palestine for religious and cultural purposes, but he did not agree with the creation of a jewish state. And thats what and and that was the line he wouldnt cross. So he never became he never joined the Zionist Organization. Now, of course, what was a wild idea . Zionism zionism becomes a possibility with the with the 1917 Balfour Declaration that voiced british support. For the creation of a jewish homeland and in 1924, a very restrictive Immigration Law shuts the door on , just jewish, but immigration to the United States from places that were considered. And then World War Two comes and so so the conversation within the Jewish Community here and elsewhere you know, radically changed schaeffer died by 1920 so he didnt live to see that weve spoken a lot about the sort of jewish identity in politics in the book and there is that but i to stress to readers that its sort of like differentiated instruction like if you want to read this book for jewish politics identities, thats all in there. If you want to this book for to learn how these titans of finance of made their way in the United States thats in there, too. So i do want to give you a straight financed, which is pop quiz now. Can you talk a bit about the relationship between schiff and j. P. Morgan . They actually had a very you know, they were sort suspicious of each other. But as you know, were collaborators. They were rivals. There was never there was rarely a financial deal that j. P. Morgan and company not cut quinn loeb and company in on and vice versa. They respected each other they definitely didnt hang out but they would they would talk and there was one major clash in their their alliance and this occurred over a railroad where schiff and his allies he was working with harriman and morgan. His contingent basically were going after the same railroad ended up causing a major panic and essentially off the modern trust busting era, because their clash was so titanic, there was no way that it could be ignored and. The monopolies that were being created in this country, which schiff and morgan were, you know, they called them communities of interest, but they were, you know, if they were monopolies. And then finally, before we turn it over to the crowd, i wanted to ask you what you hope readers get out of book. I think i mean, hope that people, for one thing, start to understand the of modern antisemitism and concepts about and money power. I hope people will come to come to understand the legacy of jacob and and his allies. And these are people that really have not gotten their historical due, quite frankly, i dont think of this book as being one of American Jewish history. I consider it to be a book of american history. But for, you know, decades and decades, these figures have really been defined by the fact that they were jewish. You. Schiff couldnt be just, you know, the worlds top banker. He was americas banker. He was americas top jewish. So everything was qualified. So i think thats what i hope. You know, i i really hope that people sort of understand that were living in the worlds that schiff and his allies, you know, helped to create. Okay. We now have 25 minutes for question. There is a microphone right here. Its very important because recording this that you do use the microphone to ask the question if you, for whatever reason physically cannot get up and sort of you raise your hand, i call on you, ill have to repeat it if you dont want that. The only other thing ill say is that were in washington, d. C. I will stress that your question really should be your question, please. Thank you. Okay. Yes. So my background is just like yours, except that my grandfather who came from the pale settlement was settled in norma, which was founded by one of these jewish philanthropists in new jersey so that could go back the land. They didnt. Do you talk or do you do you think that this business and finance and and the international really goes back way before the Jewish American bankers to the ghetto where were. This how i learned it where excluded from owning land, being in the only thing they were allowed to do was lend money. So there were there were two distinct phases of antisemite autism that the theres the ancient variety that goes back thousands of years to when refused, didnt want to assimilate to the various kingdoms and empires that they were, that their community was taken over by. They didnt want to convert and they did not want to convert it. With the rise of the roman empire. And as christianity became the predominant religion, this idea that were christ killers became a very powerful tenet of. Antisemitism, slowly marginalized within the communities that they lived in, and they forced, as you note, into financial roles that tax collecting, money lending, the charging of interest was forbidden christian and muslim society. So did perform these roles and were despised even more for doing that. So yes, this traces to that. What what happens in the hundreds is that the protocols of zion, which is the touchstone of modern antisemitism is published. Its published in russia. Its published in serialized form. And its published writer on the russojapanese war. I dont think that was an accident. So but nobody nobody it it doesnt leave russia after the Russian Revolution in 1917, the protocols of is imported to the United States by czarist members of the black hundreds who were the fiercest, most antisemitic supporters of the czar. They end up working within the United States intelligence and providing the of zion to the intelligence apparatus. It eventually makes its way to Woodrow Wilson himself. Hmm. But the main. The main czarist official who was pushing this document, the United States was named boris brazel, and he went to work with henry ford, the dearborn independent, and the protocols of zion became the fodder for the series. So it was sort of a refined, modern version of all these antisemitic stereotypes and tropes, rumors that had circulated for a centuries previously sorry, one interjection, which is that you used the phrase the gilded ghetto earlier. Could you i mean, i think its sort of intuitive but what it meant and why that phrase is so important to the book and to understanding the the of time that youre writing about. Yeah, i the sort of the gilded ghetto was meant to describe this extremely insular county and jewish highest who were extremely wealthy but were at the same time not welcome in in certain social circles circles. Im a bit of a ringer because i work with dan, but i want to say that ive read the book and its superb, masterful, done. I didnt think id be as interested in the subject matter as i was. And youve talked little bit about the corollaries with today. I wanted to draw on that a little bit further when talking about henry ford and the and the idea of sort of top antisemitism, at least reaffirming antisemitism from the top down. And when i read that, i could not help but think of certain other auto manufacturers today, particularly who has been amplifying antiisrael on the social media site. He and also the you know a certain guy running for president who has amplified attacks and george soros with antisemitic tropes and who has met with prominent semites. And though the technology is somewhat different now, it was with the dearborn independent, which i believe is a weekly in, you know, and, you know, wasnt very high end in terms of its production. It seems. What are we 100 years later, a decades or a century later . Im glad to get to it. A century later. Are we seeing more or less exactly the same thing . Thats thats a really good question. And, you know, in i wrote a bit of bit about this for the atlantic in a piece that adapted from the book henry ford, in which i reference elon musk and and donald trump and you know these are a lot of the stereotypes that were disseminated by the dearborn independent these these concepts about the internet and being globalists really just became impossible to contain. They were almost in the atmosphere and. So i think when you donald trump runs a campaign ad that refers to international he might not even know what hes talking about. But i do and i think i think other people other people do likewise. I think i mean, the the musks statements, you know, hes compared george to the xmen character magneto, who also happened to be a holocaust survivor in that series. Im not im not entirely he knows what hes saying. Sometimes. And but but thats the problem with this this. This stuff has just become part the air part of how people think they dont know where it came from. But if you look back, you can start to see the seeds of where this was created. Yeah. I mean, if youre an antisemite, thats the beauty of it, right . You never need to you dont need to say, oh, hes jewish. Can say, oh, that rootless speculator who is flooding our country like and and the synapses light up. Exactly. Did you have question . Sorry to to. Im really interested in the stories of the individuals in your book and how they actually rose from being poor peddlers or immigrants to top financiers. Could you take one of the characters either schiff or seligman, and just talk a little bit about how they rose . Yeah, sure. The power that they got. Whats is that . Schiff was unlike a lot of the the earlier generation of german who had come over and poor and did peddle. He came from a fairly wellestablished and prominent family in frankfurt. He and by the age of 18, he already had a brokerage in the United States. If you look at the Lehman Brothers, for instance, their story was pretty classic. They come over in the 1840s, they sort of bypass new york because new york was overcrowded, they couldnt they wouldnt be able to have many opportunities there. And they gravitated to montgomery, alabama. And the reason for that in part because there just were not many there certainly were not many , but there was a big opportunity for who wanted to create stores and drive good stores. And thats and thats what they did in their case they became involved in cotton industry, because that was the predominant local industry and that was sort of their path into finance. The pivot for really all of the firms and families that i write about was the civil war, because that led to the financialization, american life, because it required huge scale bond selling operations on both sides and the lehmans, to some extent, just a toe into that into financing that era as to the seligmans. But all firms were also fairly wellestablished they were well positioned get both union and confederate contracts. In the case of the lehmans they worked for the confederacy and they emerged from the civil war with with quite a bit of capital. The civil war attracted a lot competitors into the clothing trades. And so if were smart, you sort of realized you needed to make a move. And thats what these guys did. And one thing i do really want a lot about the book is that you you dont shy away from the fact that like the Lehman Brothers, the Lehman Family was on the side of the confederacy. Right. Like they were proslavery. And i think theyre are certain. I think what everyone. Whenever one writes sort of as a part the minority, you know, theres a sort of tendency to like, oh, i dont want to i want say anything bad about them. Right. And you really shy away from the sort of. No, this the full picture of what happened. Yeah. And i think i mean, you know, with the seligman family were brokers for jay goulds and knew that when jay goulds, you know, asked them to they would just buy a little bit their own account because they knew he was doing tricky. So thats what mean by not pulling punches here and not and just trying to tell the full story. They they they did do there was controversial stuff and there was stuff that you could say that was kind of shady. But i think if you look at the totality of their lives, its, you know, they also did a lot of incredible stuff. Okay, i cut the line. So okay, i was was Dorothy Schiff related to jacob schiff . She was. Okay she was. She was his granddaughter. Okay. And one more general question. How about taking all these characters to hollywood. In a great period of creativity from the thirties on. Do you work in hollywood . We can talk . No. But i have two nieces who are just nuts about movies. And. But theres theres a huge, you know, a huge part of American Culture there. Oh, i think. I mean, i think this would make a great film or limited series, obviously, im im happy to make my pitch. If anyone would like to make another money. King and we just bring up the. Oh. Cause though im im dan, i know you have worked a lot in politics and like that. And this book certainly on that. Could you did this people have any relationships with the president s and what were they or how did they deal with that . They they were they grew increasingly politically engaged as that became important for, especially for reasons of keeping the doors of immigration over. It required increasing advocacy. And they had both and, you know, hostile, frankly, with with president s. Theres one famous episode where one of jacob schiffs big things there was we had a treaty with and russia was not upholding its of it because it would not allow. Basically they were supposed to have reciprocity travel between both countries. But if you were and you wanted to travel to russia you might not be. And so for that, schiff thought this treaty should abrogated. It became a major a major fight. It was a symbolic fight for him. And taft said, you know, thats crazy. Were not going to do that. And schiff said, this is war. And and he and his allies made made that happen. So they both worked with president s and did battle with them. And then i have a follow up to that great question, which is when when one reads about the 1920s and advocating to keep the doors open to other jewish, theres this theres this hesitancy like they didnt it was it was they sort of tried to go around the back and have non in congress advocate for you didnt want it they didnt want the American Public to see advocating other. Right. How did they balance that . Right. This, this, this. I have a direct line to the president because im jacob schiff. And at cause relates to other with. I dont want to jeopardize the stability security of who are already here. Its because i think they did a bit of both. Schiff and the other major jewish of that era definitely directly engaged with president s, secretaries of state, etc. But as you mention, also like when they would have organizations to beat back immigration restriction, these would often be fronted someone who wasnt jewish. And thats. So they did a little bit of both. Mm. If there are no other questions. Its. Yes. All right. Go ahead. You can ask yours first. Then well take these these gentlemen. I was amazed to find out after the holocaust, after 1945, the quotas were not changed and halacha survivors were turned away from. The u. S. After the holocaust was over. So it seems to that antisemitism is just as bad as it ever was. And thats before gaza. What do we do . Is there anything we can do. I think, i mean, i think that i im not sure that antisemitism goes away. And as you see, i think, you know. Schiff and his allies thought that they were at a part of part of history where maybe this was going to be behind them. And it comes roaring back. You know, i remember when i grew, i dont think i didnt experience much antisemitism, but was a country club in the town where i lived that i knew go to. Right. So i grew up with that. But now now to see it come back to the levels that were seeing now is, scary. And i dont i think its important to understand where antisemitism comes from. I think its important to educate people about that. Does that eradicate antisocial mutism . Probably not. Thank you. I just want to stress something that that you just said, which is that is sort of the period this is about is both the beginning of something, but its also the ending, right and as you say, schiff passes away before he sees the immigration quotas come into effect before the holocaust before. Right. So its its youre reading the reader. The reader and schiff both that theyre reading about the beginning of, this era. But only the reader knows that. Theyre also reading about the end of an era. And it makes for, i think, a very poignant literary experience. Well, thank you very much. And thats why i thought it made sense to end the story really for, you know, with with shifts with shift death, because he didnt get to see all all these horrible things happen that he spent his life trying to counter. Thank you. For a second there. I thought i was going to have to follow the answer to solving gaza so thats. You know publishing is is a business and obviously right in books i think are a product of their time. So i wonder when you talk to an the agent talks to a publisher why this book today right could you would would people have bought on this bidding on this book five years ago ten years ago. You say its about financiers from 100 years ago. Why today . Its always a good time to read the money kings. Yeah right. I was a little bit late in delivering this book. For one thing, it took it eight years for me to to do this. And i think what interested publisher was just this . I mean, the legacy of these people and what they had done. And if you can say like, well, you know, millions of jewish people are in the United States today because of these individuals. And by the way, they also created goldman and Lehman Brothers and. By the way, they also all knew each other and their children married. And, you know, its just you know, the fact that, you know, the met has all these prices artworks is because the lehmans donated. I that was compelling to them. So you worked this for eight years. It was longer than eight years. You know, that ended. No, you cant. Whats happening in the world when a book comes out after working on it for eight years . Can you just talk a little bit about publishing the book, having a come out talking about these just given whats happening the world right now, do i have to . Yes. Yeah, its some it was a very interesting time for this book to come out a lot of the themes and resonances in the book. Its its you whats happening its kind of echoing again now and terms of just the rise of antisemite ism the you know attitudes towards zionism, all of that, all of in this book, i do feel people really didnt want to talk about rich people during this moment. And and so its been, you know. Its been an endeavor to sort of promote this and, you know, find venues to talk about these themes. I found that like as people read it and as word spreads. Its sort of catching on, finding a good audience. But this was not a great this was not a great time or maybe it was a great time. Its a hard time. Not a good time, but a great time. Right . Like, its its its like. No, because i really do feel like as an American Jewish writer and reader and person, like its important to look at the history for it is and study it and talk about it and appreciate it and have discussions with of that in mind. So and now in that sense, its a good moment. The book. I think so. I mean you know, any moment that your book comes out is a good i think so true. Yeah. Yeah. So i work at the shakespeare and were producing a play, the lehman trilogy, which starts rehearsal on thursday next week. So please come see the lehman trilogy and i feel your pain then its not, you know, when planned that show we had no idea that october 7th in gaza would happen and i would imagine youve been talking a lot about. In this book tour and you touched on it briefly that there are other things in the book. So i guess what is the thing that you havent talked about that you would really want to let people know is in the book. Thats a great question. I mean, the thing that we really havent talked about is just the incredible role that these families and firms played in the rise of modern, modern finance from the creation of institutions such as the Federal Reserve to the progressive income tax, to the to the modern ipo, which which. Goldman sachs and Lehman Brothers were instrumental in, in in doing so, i think. I mean, this is a book about, financial history, as much as it is about anything else. And and obviously the lehmans played incredible role in that story even though you know they were sort of not they were not a major firm until the 19th until really the 1920s. But yeah im going to see the play. Ill see all of you there this coming winter. Spring. Yes. Id like to know if there was in your discussion, it didnt seem that there was jewish opposition to schiffs position as far as immigration or or concern. Was there any resistance in my reason for asking is theres a lot of literature about germanjewish discrimination against other origin. And if you read the book on the warburg youll learn that what did the warburg want to do with russian immigrants coming to germany . They wanted to send them to madagascar. Is that discrimination at the warburg didnt he didnt regard it that way. They thought it was a threat against labor issues and they cut and the economy. Germany, however. Just im just kind of i wonder if in your book you dont differentiate a little more about this complex problem. And then i want to raise one point. I you stop at a date, an earlier date, but there was something called the jacksonvanik bill for russian immigration. I happen, who have been on the hill at that time working on that and im wondering if youre aware whether there was any whether that had full, full throttle jewish, american, jewish support for that or was differentiated as i happen to think it was . Well in terms of how the level of support for i should make my point that for putting detente hold in our nixon, if we couldnt get more more from russia immigrating to the United States that was the issue. I wish, i knew the answer to the second part of the question, which i dont, but the answer the first part of the question about the relationship between the Eastern European and russian immigrants, the german. And the answer there was the german were elite. They might have been a little snobby. You would say, and they again were very zealous about guarding their social standing, and they worried these immigrants were because because they didnt feel comfortable within fully comfortable within any of the societies they lived. There was a paternalistic aspect to their philanthropy. One of schiffs big projects was called the galveston movement, and the idea behind that new york was overcrowded. The Lower East Side becoming, you know, a poor trait of, you know, of everything the german did want crime, prostitution, squalor and so ship comes up with this idea helped by Theodore Roosevelt that theyre not even going to the come to the new york or some i should say they got to divert them to texas. And so they will not live in new york and so mean that was there a there was a complex relationship and you know to this day theres there theres ill feeling between of the Eastern European immigrants and the germans. Its a thing. Okay, that was all perfectly timed questions. Really nice work before. We turn to the signing please join me everyone. A round of applause. Dan is going to be signing books. It really is. I mean not just saying this because im moderating it really is a wonderful read. I gave the book to my dad. Your dads, children, moms love it. You know, its a fascinating fascinating read. Thank you for being in