Of state and Homeland Security share their thoughts for strengthening the program. Currently individuals from socalled friendly countries are not required to have a visa when entering the u. S. For stays of 90 days or less. This is about an hour and a half. Call to order here. I want to thank the witnesses. There may have been a little miscommunication in terms of the timing. I thought we wanted to start this at 11 00, we had the vote at 10 45. Thats why our attendance is not as strong. Also appreciate we were able to set this up as a roundtable. I want to have Administration People and people from the outside sitting together so we can have a good discussion. This will be pretty much a free flowing discussion which is also nice. Rather than have it structured and seven minutes per senator. When were on a topic ill encourage my colleague to jump in. So its not disjointed. We have four witnesses here, miss kelly parisi. Shes the deputy secretary of the office in the office of policy. She can speak to the enhancements that dhs is thinking of strengthening the currents visa program. Mr. John wagner is here for customers and Border Protection with the u. S. Department of Homeland Security. Mr. Wagner can speak to operational considerations and Visa Waiver Program and how officers make determinations at ports of then cry. He can discuss the benefits of preclearance operations. Next witness will be mr. Justin siberell. He is the Principle Deputy coordinator for the bureau he can speak to the existing information sharing agreements that the u. S. Government has. And finally mr. Mark fry is former director of the visa director program. Mr. Fry can speak to the need to enthanks Visa Waiver Program in a sensible way to allow us to maintain the benefits of the program while at the same time enable dhs to prevent terrorist travel. We did ask people to submit testimony so i dont want to make people feel bad. Mr. Fry did submit testimony. Ill tell you, dr. Fry, probably the most succinct description of the Visa Waiver Program and the advantages of it in terms of enhancing our security. So not to put you onthespot, and i didnt give you warning on this, it would be nice if you can go through in bullet Point Fashion what testimony you provide and talk about really why the Visa Waiver Program does improve our security and why we should be certainly looking to strengthen it, addressing some of our vulnerabilities. We dont want to weaken it. We did have a hearing on the syrian refugee situation and the reason were having this round table is because one of the outcomes of that, because we did lay out theres a strong vetting process. From my standpoint im concerned that with this administration announcing that it wants to increase number of refugees coming to this country by 21 the first year, 43 the next there will be managerial pressure to start cutting corners on that. In that hearing we heard theres some vulnerablist and i want to explore those. If theres holes that need to be plug we need to plug them. I come from a manufacturing background opinion first step is laying out reality, acknowledging reality and start setting achievable goals. This is really about laying out that reality and i think by yamerring on here i gave dr. Fry maybe enough time to prepare. I would like to start there and ask you the question, can you summarize your testimony . Is that on . Talk a little bit more. Is that on . There you go. Thanks. Thank you, chairman johnson for inviting me here. Pleasure to be on this i cheated in a sense of the testimony because you may have recognized what i provided was an updated version of what i submitted to this committee in march when i also testified on the Visa Waiver Program and so i dont want to make my fellow panelists bad that they didnt get a chance to submit testimony because i recite just wasnt that much work. Exactly. I appreciate that. I like efficiency. Exactly. Happy to talk about the it. Roundtables like this, the hearing that you held last spring are allimportant because the Program Needs education and awareness. There remains despite a lot of efforts misunderstanding of what the program is and what the program isnt and this seems to be this perception that because the word waiver is in the title that somehow security requirements are waived when in fact thats precisely the opposite. So im happy to talk about sort of what i see the four security components, but before i do so i i want to note its fitting and appropriate that round tables like this, hearings and legislation that your committee introduced just the other day are being talked about because like all good Security Programs needs to evolve and it needs to evolve in the light of the current program. The history of the visa Program Since 9 11, the program predates that but since 9 11 when it became a Security Program more so than a travel Facilitation Program theres bean history of reforms. Some administratively done, some legislatively done. This makes sense. Because we got a couple of other colleagues that have joined us. I want this free flowing discussion here. So ill encourage even while dr. Fry is talking if you have a question on a particular subject bring it up so its not disjoint. Same thing as the witnesses. Raise your hands and well recognize you. Lets keep this very free flowing. I think it will be more effective. Thank you. To get into briefly the four main security components of the program and why its a security enhancing Program First is individualized screening of Visa Waiver Program travellers. The perception that somehow you have a european passport and you waive it at the gate agent in paris and show up at dulles or jfk is simply not true. Theres an individualized vetting program that goes on by the Electronic System for travel authorization which is overseen by cdp. That in fact was part of the last major legislative reform to the Waiver Program which was the recommendations of the 9 11 Commission Act back in 2007. We set up a system that requires data from individual travellers and others in the u. S. Government can run that data against watch liptss. Is that the same with all visas like the fiancee visa . Yeah. Yes, i think. Sorry. I was going to say make sure your mic is on. Same biographic checks for a visa occur. Its dhs database, state department, look out, support system otherwise we call class, interpol, lots of travel documents, database. So its Law Enforcement, ct databases, of course the terrorism screening database. Excuse me. Were getting ahead. Does it include recent travel, does that individual screening include recent travel and how far back does that travel include for months or years or days . Do you want to talk about the travel history . Well what im trying to flush out the individual screening how thorough is that individual screening and do we need to take a look at things we need to do. What ill say and john is the best person to handle this is that theres some screening that goes on, specific to the Visa Waiver Program and is identical to the vetting that goes on for visas. Compliments another set of screening protocols that cdp does on all travellers to the United States whether visa waiver or visa and that does take more into account travel history. So the Visa Waiver Program fits into this larger Border Security framework how far back does that travel history go . Travel to the United States no speak being more about traveling to iran or iraq or syria. We would not routinely have access to that kind of information. If theres not an access to the United States we wouldnt have that. Thats regardless of a visa. Some information sharing agreements we do have with a few partners that gives us access to travel i in ttineraries. We dont have visibility on the entire world of all the moments of people moving around. If it would help, i mean as mark was just starting out saying, a starting place is educating about what it is and i know hes getting to it. If we could talk about exactly what the program swhat it requires, i personally think we would have i think it might help form the questions. Thats what i was trying to do. Thank you so much. Is there a better way . Youre welcome to. No im very comfortable with mark as well as myself. This is what i want. I really want this to be a relaxed atmosphere. Why dont you go through it. As quickly as possible. Dont go into such great detail because there will be a lot of drilling down. Thank you, senator. We talked about the individualized and recurrent screening of vwp travellers. Because you have one today doesnt mean youll have one tomorrow if derogatory information comes up. Second piece of the Visa Waiver Program is information sharing program. Companies that participate in the program are required to share information with the United States effectively on citizens or passengers who may be a Security Risk known as suspected terrorists or serious criminals. And related to that as well is a requirement to share lost and stolen passport data with interpol. So theres an information sharing piece, those two pieces Work Together because the information that we get from our partners in the vwp feeds into the database to make it more effective and better. Senator tester was talking about that information sharing would that have travel from france into iraq or syria. Is it robust enough to figure that out . Well, as i said the system hits against certain databases and has information on certain individuals. For example if theres travel i believe if theres travel history provided that gives terrorize a concern from a partner and raises to a level where a person is known as a suspected terrorist that individuals name is given to us and after vetting well cast that. The vetting itself as john said doesnt hit travel without a u. S. Nexus. It relies on the quality of the information of the visa waiver country, right . It relies on the reliability of that. Not all uniform. Not all reliable. I would argue its better than not having the information sharing, okay. Yes. Just that its contingent does that country collect the information, how long do they store it for and domestic laws and privacy laws can they share it with us. If its not say an identified National Security reason can they just give us bulk information or bulk data for us then to determine whether this is a National Security implication. There are standards on the program that requires certain threshold of the information that can be shared, correct . Yes. We can get into that in greater detail. Just an example of the folks in the paris attack who were all eu citizens are you comfortable knowing what you know the folks engaged in that attack would they have been stopped at the border of the United States based on what we have right now. Would the system have prevented that . Yes. Some of them would have been prevented from traveling here to begin. Some. Not all . I would prefer to discuss more of the details in a cla clarificlarif classified setting. Theres information that we would have received from their travel details that were confident we would have identified had they booked travel to the United States. But should point out without the Visa Waiver Program they would have shown up at an embassy and Embassy Personnel have information on these individuals better or worse . The embassy will have the same information well have access to. Same database we check. Same basic biographical information we collect whether its any type of visa waiver application. Its your basic biographical information and your basic points of contact and a few other data fields. We run it against the same types of derogatory databases, the same u. S. Government holdings and how its best back and forth we come to the same results. Without a Visa Waiver Program and information sharing and intelligent sharing requirements, again im trying to compare. If you didnt have a Visa Waiver Program would we not have access to information if this Law Enforcement information thats specific to those countries those visa waiver countries the visa waiver gives us the structured format and formalities to exchange that type of information preen individuals a platform to share it. If that information exists. Correct. Right. Thats always the case. As a result of the, i think it is, maybe im not talk loud enough. As a result of the information sharing arrangements required for the vwp they have shared over 9,000 known or suspected terrorists with us that were using in our vetting as a result. We wouldnt have that if it wasnt for the vwp program. Thats an excellent security value of the program that wouldnt exist. Under the agreement in which the framework for sharing of this data known and suspected terrorist identity data, we use that as a requirement in the program and being a member of the Program Requires you pass that information to you, so in that regard if you didnt that have Visa Waiver Program you might not have the incentive and disincentive to not providing that information. It actually helps us in that structured framework to push governments to share that information because nonperformance could be problematic for that country to remaining a member of the program. There are several bills. One is to require that if a person from europe, for example, has been traveling to syria that that information should be automatically transferred. Let me ask you from the opposite side. If we require that of them they will require that of us which i dont have a problem of that. The question is do we have that information and two can we legally share it with them . Were taking steps to enhance it further that was part of an announcement from the white house on november 30th. And were already in the process of making those additional change. That wasnt my question. My question is if we have a visa waiver person thats an american, thats been to syria, do we have that information and can we share it with the country that they are going to, say they are going to france . Can we legally do that . I have to go back and check the piece of it. But if it is very much a Reciprocal Program to get your first point. Any new requirements we put on they will consider and legal will have to put on to us and similarly were sharing our extracts of our terrorist watch list including foreign fighter exing tract with our vwp countries and others because we want countries to screen against this data. This is a global Security Program considering beyond just the perimeters. Isnt i want also true and this is true of any database you start out with the basic database and its imperfect and then beautive a database you can dont add to it. You can continue to improve it. We have a certain database and were seeing theres maybe holes in the data that we want to fill. So over time the beauty of technology is it just builds upon itself and gets better and better. Never perfect but it gets better and better. Certainly some things you were talking about dr. Fry in your testimony. To reinforce a couple of these points. The information thats required under the Visa Waiver Program, either incentivizes or can sometimes the threat of potential punishment can make sure countries are sharing what they should be sharing. If they are not were aware of it and can address it. I want to point out by definition, the Visa Waiver Program countries are strong allies. There are good allies. This structures it as my colleague says it and makes it mandatory. We can potentially take remedial action if a country is not meeting their obligations. Very quickly to finish the other two components, the third element that makes the Visa Waiver Program a security tool is secure travel documents. Again, this is something that exists as a requirement for travellers around the vwp but not for travellers that come under visas that you have to have an electronic passport which is much more fraud resistant. As you know your bill addresses it theres a small percentage of vwp travellers that dont have to carry those passports and the bill closes that loophole. So thats a good thing. A much better assurance of not being able to use a fake passport to use the program. Finally this is a point i think sometimes gets overlooked the law mandates dhs lead inspection and audits of these countries every other year. In practice dhs is working with the state department and other partners and continuing their Monitoring System of developments in these countries. If i cuss just a minute on the inspections having participated in a number of them. They are unbelievably comprehensive sort of soup to nuts reviews of a countrys Border Security, aviation security, passport development and issuance process, counterterrorism capabilities and its a way for dhs, for the u. S. Government more broadly to have visibility into how a country does security. And if we fine that there are gaps, whether information sharing or whether in what a country does with respect to its counter radicaliz