Transcripts For CSPAN3 Peter 20240706

Chosen as one of New York Times. One notable books of 2015. Professor moore teaches at the university of oxford and has lectured internationally on 18th century history. He also hosts a podcast called travels through time, which i encourage you to check out. Tonights moderator, richard cohn is the author of making history, a book that we presented in this past year in the american inspiration series. He also has written by the sword chasing the sun and how to write. Like tolstoy, the forming former publishing director of two leading publishing houses, he has edited books that have won the pulitzer the booker and many other prizes 21 books under his watchful. I have been number one bestsellers. Richards written works have appeared in the New York Times book review and in the wall street journal. He is also a fellow of Royal Society of literature. Richard will join us for the second half of our program. But to start us off, peter. Welcome to you. Peter moore. It is such a delight to have you here and all of us in the audience, of course, know that we set this 3 p. M. Eastern time to suit your uk time zone and i think itll be worth it to get your transit atlantic perspective. Thank you so much for taking us back to the mid18th century and sharing information about the onyx expected influencers behind americas independence. As the Washington Post called it, i think im sure you remember that review well, they also called this group caste beyond the Founding Fathers. And i love that word beyond. So we really you for your research and over to you to introduce us to this caste of men and one woman, thankfully. Peter, welcome. Margaret its a real pleasure to be here. Hello to all of you. Im in west london at the moment. The sun has gone down, but im still awake, luckily enough. But well find out if i am awake enough for subject anyway. So im going to talk a little bit about the book. I didnt have long really, but i wanted to introduce you to the central characters around which ive constructed this story. But lets begin at a common point of departure, because theres an image on your screen at the moment that i guess will be instantly familiar to so many of you. This really captures is one of the i dont want to use the word iconic because it feels cliched, but for this this image, its the right word, really. Its one of the iconic moments in the birth of the United States. That foundation and story of yours. And we can date this moment pretty well, because theres lots of documents that tell us what was going on through that summer of 1776. This is the moment when thomas jefferson, much younger than the two people hes there with, is presenting his draft copy of the declaration of independence. So you have three members of the fabled committee of five here. You have john adams. Obviously, hes sitting, looking i suppose, a little bit inscrutable in the center. Franklin is running his eyes over the text. And jefferson is looking, i suppose a little bit nervous because he would be a bit nervous if Benjamin Franklin was about to critique your copy. But this is this is this this really central moment. And i suppose we can imagine here. Franklin, reading those famous words when in the course of human events and so on and going through the words around which i structure my book life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Now, this is a 20 20 century representation of an 18th century moment. So its, i suppose, a romanticized image. But we do know that Something Like this happened. Its its its testified in the documents that we have. We know this that franklin did make editorial interventions and that this moment really was at the start of a period of redrafting that went on between maybe the 20th of june and the 4th of july with the critical moment really coming on the 2nd of july, when it was adopted by by the congress. And it was actually passed and signed on the 4th of july, which of course, then becomes the first independ once a day. So i think its what were looking at here is is the original rough draft of the declaration, which i believe still exists . Well, i know it still exists. I think its in the New York Public Library now, and you can have a look at it on online. This digitized copy. And its a really fascinating document. And its so for all little editorial changes to the text that youre familiar with, franklins big editor really intervention in the preamble was to to to include the words selfevident which is a nice enlightened twist looking at with your eyes. These things are selfevident. But already jefferson has caught much of the flavor of the text that were familiar with today. I think at this point the famous line goes life and, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. So its a little bit different. Theres an extra and in there, but essentially this Great American moment is captured here and already the document is well on its way. But if we can move to the next slide, im going to tell you about some of the other characters who are not so familiar. So lets go lets back up a bit. A year before this moment. In 1776, we have a very, very similar use of language from a man called william strawn, who is probably the one the least well known of my in the book. Strawn is a scottish born london based printer. He was originally called William Strachan and he came to london in the 17th thirties and he you can you can see him writing in a letter to his great friend, Benjamin Franklin. These words i wish the liberty and happiness of all of our brethren with you. Okay. Now, i think these are Little Things that as a historian, really provoke you. You wonder, well, hang on, theres a real echo. The next year in a declaration of this language. And im not making the case that theres a connection between this particular letter that strawn writes and the declaration. But what i am pointing out here to you now is the language that jefferson was using at the time, that famous preamble was not wholly original and this is something that jefferson owned himself. He said his idea or his job to recreate new language. His job was to encapsulate the best thoughts that people were expressing in their time, in the most eloquent way. And so you can see here these words, liberty, happiness already. And if we just go back to storm for a moment, i want to dwell on him because hes one of the important characters in my book because of his friendship with Benjamin Franklin, which stretches over the whole course of the book really between the 1740s and 1775. And like franklin, hes a printer by trade. Hes really interested in politics. And together they discuss endlessly what is going to be the fate of british america is it going to remain as part of the British Empire or is it as franklin comes to believe, are going to be an independent country . And this is this is i suppose, one of the central plot lines, the book and strawn and franklin fall out over this. I just want to quote to you. The letter that franklin was writing to strawn on the very same day this. So this is on the 5th of july, 1775. I think this is one of the great letters in the whole of the revolution ordinary literature, so strong by this point has become a member of the british parliament, and hes sitting on the green benches in westminster behind lord north as all these coercive acts have been passed through parliament and franklin writes, mr. Strawn, youre a member of parliament and one of that majority which is doomed. My country to destruction. You have begun to burn our towns and murder our people. Look upon your hands there are stained with the blood of your relations. You and i were long friends. You are now my enemy. And i am yours. Benjamin franklin. I think thats one of the great sign offs to a letter in history. Im reliably informed that you can buy a t shirt on ebay with that very letter inscribed on the front. But lets move on. Hes one of the characters i talk about. We might get back to strawn in a bit, but the the next character is called john wilkes. Not really what i was trying to do when i started constructing the story was solve a few mysteries of my own. And a lot of you who are listening today will instantly know that the the greatest book about the American Revolution was written by Bernard Bailyn and the 1960s is called the ideological origins of the American Revolution. And in it, he writes about john wilkes and how john wilkes was an incredibly important influence at an early point in the American Revolutionary story. Here, you can see him. Im again centering in on these important words, liberty. I consider this the birthright of every subject to the British Empire. And i hold Magna Charter to be is in full force in america as in europe. Wilkes his story in the 1760s is both absolutely extraordinary and completely forgotten. I first began to conceive of this book as being a british prelude to the American Revolution with playing the part of the protagonist as to upend politics with his great campaigns for liberty wilkes was a Brilliant Writer a very unfaithful lover, a very daring politician. And he ran into great problems with the british political establishment. He first had him thrown at parliament and then had him declared an outlaw. His story was huge in britain, but what really interested me when i was writing the book was that i found out that his story was huge in america as well. Maybe well get back to wilkes in a bit, but thats another part of that sentence. Liberty, liberty and wilkes are next slide, please, if you can. Catherine mcauley now a lot of people dont remember john wilkes and they remember john wilkes booth, who is a later incarnation of the same name or a similar name and. A lot of people forget. Macaulay, the historian, because they remember the victorian macaulay historian, but the original macaulay historian. Was this one that you see in front of you right now. And somebody else who i write about and let me pull out this quote. Ill read it for you. Its only the democrats school system, rightly balanced, too, which can secure the virtue, liberty and happiness society. Again, you can see an approximation with the text which becomes really famous less than a decade later. Macaulay is an astonishing character. I think that she should be cherished and celebrated really in the american founding story because she paid an incredibly Important Role. She she was very skeptical about monarchy. She was a great advocate for republican government. She thought that power should be split because she didnt believe anyone could be trusted with any power. So her concerns were the concerns the american patriots and through the late 1760s into the 1770s, her writings were hugely, hugely popular in the american colonies. She wrote and corresponded with Abigail Adams and and and lots of the others. I mean, theres a whole list if you go and have a look at her published letters, which recently have been put out by Oxford University press. I think youll find all of her correspondence with these great founding characters and theres a bit of a topsy turvy feel to these letters as well. But shes in a way, the more the more prominent of the figures in 1775, probably one of the most perilous moments of the whole Foundation Story. Macaulay wrote a pamphlet in support of the the first Continental Congress. So shes a really important character. Again, well get back to her. I know. Ive got to keep moving on, so lets keep moving on. But you can see if you look in the corner, a little nod to sydney in the bottom, the great champion of liberty from the 17th century. Okay, next slide, someone he didnt like, macaulay as well. Someone who didnt like macaulay at all, i should say. But someone who appears in my story as a foil to the progressives to the enlightenment ers who believed that society should be moving forward at a pace and all development was good with samuel johnson. Now, Samuel Johnsons birthday is today in the old style, so i hope youll kind of wish him well on this on this occasion. Hes a real hero of mine. Im from lichfield in staffordshire very much like him. But i have to say, if hes got a home in america, it may well be cambridge in massachusetts because thats where a lot of his papers are kept in the library. He did some some so many great johnson scholars have come from the United States, which ive always thought a real strange thing, because he was very rude about the american patriots in response to macaulays pamphlet in 1775, johnson one called taxation no tyranny, which included a phrase that once read never forgotten, which is how, is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty from the drivers of . Maybe well talk a bit more about that later, but johnson was very much on the side of what he thought the as the common person he was, he was very interested in what he thought of as the living world and the big theme throughout all of johnsons writing was about happiness. In 1759, he produced a novella called restless, which is all about the quest for happiness. He uses this phrase the pursuit of happiness five times in his writings before 1776, now wrote a piece for the atlantic when the book came out about johnson and jefferson and the connections between the two of them, not making not making the argument that. Jefferson took that particular phrase, which is so quintessentially his own from johnson. But in the sense that they both thought about happiness in a similar manner, that jefferson and johnson both believed that happiness wasnt something that could be safely obtained. It was something that had to be strived for. Okay, ive got a couple of minutes left to tell you the next two characters, so lets move on. Thomas paine is someone who again falls between the gaps in a way he doesnt neatly fit into the Founding Fathers narrative. But the british obviously dont consider him quite one of their own as well. But you can see he is talking about happiness in a similar way to johnson, you can see, well, just a bit of context about thomas paine. For those of you who dont know, he came to philadelphia in late 1774. In 1775, he became this pioneering magazine journalist and the one quality about him, which was just extraordinary, was his prose style. In 1776, he started that fabled year off with his pamphlet, common sense, which by the end of the year, i mean, theres been so many different estimates of how many copies it sold, but some say as many as a quarter of a million or half a Million People read common sense. And its often described the book that started the revolution. People have said i think it was john adams. He said, without the pen of paine, the sword of washington would have been would not have been used at all or something probably a bit more eloquent i imagine giving it was the 18th century, but here we have paine with a very enlightenment ish idea of good ordered science. The politician consists in fixing the true point of happiness and freedom. Those men deserve the gratitude of ages. He should discover a mode of government that contained the greatest sum of individual happiness, the least national expense. Quite like that. Quite so. Weve got one more character to go and then my whistle stop tour of them of characters will come to a close and i can talk with richard bit more about the story. So the last one in this half dozen is someone who needs certainly no introduction for me apart from observation, which i have to say is quite unshakable, that Benjamin Franklin is the greatest american of all time because of what he represents and what he lived through. If anyone wants to argue with me about that, ill happily ill happily argue with you. But this quote in itself isnt a particularly profound. Its Franklin Owens attitude towards happiness, which comes down in this quote to a kind of stoicism, i suppose. But the quality about it i really like is that its franklins writing. Franklins writing is prose. Style is what my favorite things of all. Its just a wonderful treat to read him. Hes such a quotable, enjoyable player, playful, and i used him as as a kind of touchstone throughout the book to knit everything together. And i cant quite read the quote here because theres a big picture of my face on top of it. So ill have to leave you to navigate it yourself. But this idea of franklin and the weather and waiting for the clouds to pass and the sun to shine, i think really captures something. But also what i hope ive showed you here is, just giving you a taste of is of some of these characters who not only jefferson, but these characters were thinking about the business of life, the business of liberty, and the business of happiness as well. Okay. Thank you. No, i think its at this point that i come in as your questioner, peter. And i have to say, first of all, i really enjoyed the book and my spread through it is so wellwritten and so lively and it was fun to read and. I was just wondering, was it fun to write . Did you have fun doing it . Occasionally, im sure there must have been some points. I mean, when i say that what i said about franklin, i absolutely mean and this was a period so rich in ideas, so rich in writing. I think the American Revolution is a great era of of income paper. It was an event that was the kind of physical matter the American Revolution. Its not like if you think of the english revolution of the 17th century, it might be more of puritans standing in pulpits and shouting out screeds about god. The American Revolution was very much pamphlet so stumps or, you know, these kind of things, documents and i just loved working with that primary source material. I thought it was fabulous and and that went for wilkes. He was a fabulous writer. Johnson is probably the greatest prose style in the english language. Macaulay was quite boring sometimes, but when she was fired up, she could she could really fire a few highs. Hi, miles of her own. And thomas paine, if you for example, if you watch back but the 2009 inaugural address barack obama on the steps of the capitol. He quotes thomas paine for about 70 seconds at one point. So his language is still really quotable today. So all of that was was was wonderful. What i find more challenging was trying to make it all stick together, because im essentially writing about a whole generation and through this little chain of of six character, which is, which is a challenge and its essentially a book about writers, not necessarily writers of books, but as you say, writers of pamphlets, although, you know, youve got a publisher youve got a politician and so on. Catherine macaulay looks like Hilary Mantel about the same age, incidentally. But one of the things that she taught, obviously arguing is central to the book is that the american. War for independence came about because of writers. And im wondering how well read people in america that time. And people say historian say that the working class of mid 18th Century America was peculiarly well read, unlike. Parts of britain, for instance, how did their writings generally youll your six how did that writings get across. Well that was one thing that really staggered me actually, is they got across and they got across quite quickly. So let me give you a date, which i think is as important as the foundations story, as as many of the other big ones. And this is the 38th of april, 1763, john wilkes is taken into custody, put into the tower of london as a member of parliament for the constituency of aylesbury and this hugely scandalous moment in british political history. This story was being reported in all across these these colonies within six weeks, the time it took a ship to sail across and not only was the story being reported, it was being reported with the zealous mail idea of a 21st century cable news anchor. You can imagine them going mad that these things and so this is i mean, one of the funny points that gordon would makes and in one of his books on the revolution and hes talking about the establishment of the first newspaper in south carolina, and he said, of course, the first news item that was covered was about essex in, you know, in the east of england. And this weird sense of this weird obsession that colonial americans had with the news agenda in westminster. So there was a huge amount crossover people in because from the british point of view, this is a very famous stereotypes of the colonial as being borderline barbaric about not being able to read anything at all, which was very far from the case to the colonial american readership was very wellinformed, and they had a lot of material to get to. Theres a great scene ive got in the book, actually, when the i think hes a cleric, he goes across from from philadelphia to london and he meets johnson and johnsons and his usual destruction mode. He says, what do you know . Youre from america and. What are you reading, america . You dont read anything, he said. But sir, we read the rambler and this johnsons perfectly modified, and he changes his attitude. And it actually turns out that johnson was hugely popular in america. He was there was editions of all of his major works, sometimes within months. So franklin was the to to print johnsons vanity of human, which went into Poor Richards almanac were not not into a you know, a kind of august poetry collection that went into Poor Richards almanac and so that was the quality of the kind of stuff that was getting published at the time. So that crossover is really interesting in a while life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, you very adroit, the sleight of hand choose that famous phrase as a way, organize your book. This organizing to three sections according to each word or phrase, but i say sleight of hand because other words that might have been used. So when you think that the canadian constitution brings in property as a crucial element, the french have recourse egaliee do you think that you have a chance that something other than that particular line could have been used to tell this story . No, because i think one my my editors would never have tolerated another another word in another section. But i think there was something peculiarly american, that phrase, which which is just always struck me throughout my life. Im sure everyone whos listening today just, you know, i cant even when they first heard life, liberty in the pursuit of happiness because it was almost there from from birth and and, it was when i was finding these occasions similar phrase. So you can go back what a lot of people when they approach this kind of story is almost a decoding detective so we follow this word back and you get to this person get back and you always get back to john locke. Locke and life, liberty in a state. Thats the kind of you know, you can go further back to the epicureans if you want to, but it looks pretty safe. But there is something very interesting, christopher, you talk about this this idea, that you mean from life, liberty in a state to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I mean, what the hell is that . Thats so weird. Like, kind of perversion of a very otherwise solid sentence. But what is this pursuit of happiness . So this this kind of obviously generates a lot of questions for the writer and lots and and lots of questions were asked. But happiness in the enlightenment age was, seen as the great aspiration before. If you said to people in the court of king henry days, would you like to pursue happiness . They think you were crazy, was negative, happy happiness happens after you die. When in the celestial uplands. But this idea in the enlightenment was that happiness was not just achievable, was achievable for anybody. Even if you were, you know, just a normal person. Its an exciting idea. Youre saying that, you know, these rights are selfevident. Was a franklin addition, but was a battle over taking out sacred and undeniable well listen. The. The no. What actually happened during this editorial. In june of 1776 is probably explained in wonderful book. I remember of of my head who wrote it. Ill tell you in one second. Yeah its. Called back he wrote a wonderful analysis of of the declaration by 100 years ago now and so he makes a lot of the the connections between different modes of thought. I really didnt want to get caught in the weeds of points like because i thought it was that was more to preserve of academics what i wanted to look at really with these ideas and an essence what were they what how were they driving people . Because theres a historian the way i think about history and how ive always written my books is try and find the currents. Go beneath the waterline to see what i mean, whats tugging people along, what are they moving towards . And often these arent so easily spoken. Its nice to be nice when you get flashes of moments like this. So for example, the substitution of self selfevident actually you can connect that to a broader theme of frankl and thoughts. You can see him looking at his electro Electrical Apparatus when hes doing the. But that wasnt my major concern, if you see what i mean. Were talking about Catherine Mcauley and of the people whos written in questions was asking were there any other who really contribute to it on either side . A the atlantic to the idea of the American Dream. Well, that is. Yeah, thats a good question because there were you see formerly politics was a very exclusive space for to to to deal with each other. And not only was gender specific, it was it was very class think as well. So this idea of the gentleman the gentry and the ordinary people and macaulay herself operated within that sphere. And i wanted to show her is someone who was actively participating in this discussion, but she wasnt really allowed to do it. What she would do and i quite like this about her as she would essentially what she wrote was these big history books which huge impenetrable tomes about. 17th century history. But she would use those as a way of commenting on ideas about tyranny, liberty, the abuse of power, how humans really are apt. To corruption, things like this. And the other thing that she did really well was shed cook up an idea for a a pamphlet on like Thomas Hobbes. Okay . So shed write the title would be an inquiry into the ideas of Thomas Hobbes and certain ideas of government. And she writes about hobbes for five or six pages. And then she would abandon that idea completely, then write about politics afterwards, which women would just not supposed to do at all. So. So, macaulay actually became something of a, you know, a political politico or commentator. Wed call him today someone who popped up. And she was so unusual that she was encouraged because. And this wonderful phrase actually in the in the critical review, for one, when i first history came out and they said, no longer is history confined, so it no longer is politics confined to those of us who wear beards, which may have a kind of personal residence for me at least, but theres this this idea of her big an insurgent who managed to get into this world of political discourse. Now, there were many of a women at the time who influenced ideas and thinking. So you only have to read about johnson, Charlotte Lennox and see all the blue stockings, all these characters who contributing to thought, but they did it. I think more in an indirect way. And of course have massive otis and warren and an Abigail Adams and people like who were not you know, theyre not shrinking violets as well. They were they were saying, what about the women famously . So the womens voices in discussion and i think a huge amount work has been done recently on finding those voices. I just used macaulay as my main character because i think shes so interesting and so overlooked. Well, Abigail Adams of her husband tilted a pipe, but to go back to, you know, the french egalite equality, it didnt feature in jeffersons drafts. And one of the things. Considering the number of people who are in slave to that time, did any thought as far as we know, go into. The African Americans and what their rights should . Well, this is one of the great missed opportunities of history, because it took another war hundred years later, really, to solve that question. And there was i think theres an argument to be made. There were opportunities that were missed in. The 1770s, 1770s, really interesting moment in history for this is just before the formal beginning of the Abolition Movement in the uk where you get people clarkson who walk with famous chest and and wilberforce and and and i think johnsons really interesting to hear a character ive spoken about elsewhere is Francis Barber he was a jamaican slave boy. He was taken in in the most extraordinary journey to live with johnson at gough square and he arrived there. So this is off fleet street in london for anybody knew about the geography of london this is johnsons big townhouse where. There was, you know, a small boy from the plantations in jamaica arrived. So johnson was very much involved in this idea of that, about liberty. He hated slavery the idea of colonialism was abhorrent to him. So i wrote this as well. But also in 17, 1773, you have the somerset case is famous legal case in britain where theres an opinion made by judge mansfield says that the people cant be held as slaves in britain and at the same time there are, you know, societies abolition societies which are beginning to form in america as well. And one one character who does have something to say about this, although this is controversial, i should say, because its very difficult to pinpoint who wrote what this time, because a lot of journalism was unsigned. But thomas paine is often credited, and a lot of people believe he wrote this. This really angry editorial in in the Philadelphia Newspapers against slavery in 1775. So that mood was there. But really, when jefferson was drafting the declaration, his challenge was a really steep one because he had to find a mode of language and expression that was palatable to everybody. And franklin sat him down, put his arm around him, and told him that you should never get involved in the writing of documents for public, public is a really funny story about and unfortunately a lot the stuff about slavery just went in the drafting. Yeah well you mentioned Justice Mansfield of course he was a nod to is judgments about slavery because jane austen call her novel mansfield park. I came in as one youve got you know you and me two englishmen talking about. A very american subject. If this book had been written today by an american author, do you think theyd have chosen your same of six, or would they have tried introduce other people. Its very difficult for to speculate on that. But i would say what i would say is theres a huge and you probably have a perspective on this as well. So itd be interesting to know what you think. But theres a huge differential in how this story is remembered and these two Different Countries in the United States and Great Britain and you might say, well, of course, of course, thats thats because your big theme and in your last book was about who tells history and why do we tell the stories we tell . Okay. In the uk, ive been astonished how little understanding of the basic facts of the American Revolution there is. Whereas in the states people know what was happening on the, you know, the 15th of february 1774, it goes down to a granular level. So, so what i tried to do is, is follow is find a story of my own, which i think is faithful to the argument. And the central argument being this really the American Revolution took enlightenment britain forward rather than being something completely new of its. Would they use different different characters to do now. I dont know maybe we can hear someone in im sure everyone going on to hear as questions and one of them thats come up its just that wall was far from certain i mean one of the qualities of your book is suspense about whats going to happen. And that really a huge number of people in the states, even when they were breitling under the stupidity of many british politicians have known the king were longing for the not to be a Will Franklin being the chief one. I think right through to 1774 were actually were now the 250th anniversary if theres any journalists here and they want to go right but were right on the anniversary of the hutchinson letters affair, which was this moment that all went spectacularly wrong for franklin when he ended up being abused by the privy council whitehall before this moment, i think franklin is desperately trying to bring things back in some of order. And i mean, he really being driven to distraction by the utter stupidity of british politicians. Well, thats something that hasnt changed in the past of a millennium, i have to say. But from the stand packed to see the i dont know. I mean, its just if you go back to to the policy making of 1765 onwards, theres so many. Mr. Jobs. And i think there was a huge emotional tie between. The colonies and Great Britain. And its almost astonishing in hindsight, looking back, i think there was obviously going to be some rupture at some point. But the fact that it happened so soon and in history is its something which is remarkable to me. But you get someone like William Franklin franklins son and and i, i quote him right at the beginning saying, we wish the Great Britain was a ship and we could bring it over and anchor next to it. I mean, this is this idea, you know, all the best culture, the best fashion, the best ideas, all these things people really regard in britain very highly. And and that that caused a very deep and enduring emotional bond, quite aside from the financial dependencies and the help and all the rest of this. So yeah, it was a strong thing. Youve written a book about the american declaration of independence. Its a declaration. And yet the phrase that then gets off the news is the American Dream, which is a very different notion, declaring what you think you have a right to, and then the dream of what might be possible. But i think those things to come by in the same time and within that line. And this is what i think in a way is genius of jefferson, because what he had to do. So this is the astonishing part of the story really. Again, i mean, this is the foundation and story for america is absolutely astonishing. I couldnt i cant stress this enough, but the fact that there was someone like thomas on the hand in the 1770 come down from monticello, probably one of the greatest writers in western history, not because he was, you know, shakespeare in and his dramatic scale or whatever. But he had a wonderful quality for distilling things and he could state things so beautifully and so succinctly and what he did in that one document was not only clarify all of the crimes that the british had committed against the colonists, but in that preamble, he also sketched out what he thought the rights of a country should be. And those things are pretty much held. I mean, theyre still argued about today and you can always if you want to i measure use them as a yardstick for the health of America Today you said well how much how much liberty is and how much happiness is there in the the country that would be the jeffersonian measure, i suppose so. They are there. Well that leads to the questions from here is and robert writes as the phrase life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness from the declaration of independence adopted by other being adopted by other countries. Oh, thats a really good question. Thank you, robert. But also, you have put me on the spot somewhat because im not sure theres been various declaration the history of declarations is is an interesting one. It was a kind of really weird thing for for the Continental Congress to do. We the ones come into my head are only really about the the the french one. You mentioned before. I dont think think theres something quite peculiarly american about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I will be very happily corrected. Someone can find find an island somewhere in the south seas or somewhere which has a similar mission statement. Im not aware of one. Sorry, im another listener says the use of selfevident seems to have a likeness to the language. Mathematical proofs that contrast with any divine royalty. This is to this guess and here is might be interesting to know and the peters next book is going to be the writing of the british appear mathematica by isaac so youll well have to see if im allowed if im allowed the does it have that well this message of natural thinking is has your idea and i go and prove it. So this was, you know, the idea of proof and what burden of proof should be the kind of thing that the natural loss as of the time spent a lot of effort and energy and its it does amplify the enlightenment quality of the document that franklin added this this was just how those brains worked. Well heres the point but is it selfevident that, you know, im not sure if if you actually sit down and think about it selfevident, i suppose. Were not bounding into metaphysics here. But i think one thing is very interesting to stress. There was another really important antecedent for jeffersons, and that was the virginia declaration rights, which was written by Charles Mason a few weeks before. And that talks about the the rights of mankind being Something Like the right to life, liberty and the obtaining of happiness and safety. Now, one of the things that really interested me is how did that change from the obtaining happiness and safety to the pursuit of happiness . And what i argued in this atlantic piece i mentioned is that theres something quintessentially american about this pursuit of happiness, because its saying, look, everyones got the right to go out and chase happiness, chase as much as you like. But were not going to be around for you if all goes wrong. So its that kind of an i often see that in americans today. Its kind of a bit of a go getter society, but the safety net is not the same as in maybe other countries, but its a kind of safety. Does in to other countries constitutions. But another do you think it was a puritan influence on the colonies that increased the level of education and instituted early Higher Education that in a way helped the revolution happen . I think thats a really good point, actually. And i think thats right. Its often said about franklin he he was so good because he unified puritan instincts with enlightenment values. He had that kind protestant work ethic, the famous up and get going in charge on and i think that did actually catalyze a lot of the early growth in the colonies and you look at you look the early educational institutions that are heavily influenced really great document i write about at one point there is franklins idea for his own academy in philadelphia, which of course undeveloped become the university of pennsylvania after. A bit of a rocky start. And franklin was absolutely interested in religion at all. You people, out of trowels, gardening in the wilds of philadelphia he wasnt bothered about you know and he had this this kind of really attitude to the scholars of harvard who he thought were you know just so rigid in their thinking. They were useless for nothing. But that might have something to do with his hang up about social. Im sure it does. But so i think an answer to that question, i think religion obviously played a really Important Role early on in the colonial story. Later on, less so and its often said that the founding generation was the least religious generation of all generations thats ever anyone. So i know. Ive heard that before. Weve got a long list of questions they should say. You very kindly said that you will answer them after the program in washington. If you send if you send your questions. And im sure, margaret shes kindly keeping us in order stay well well send them to send them on to me and ill try and get back to you. So if youve got a particular question ill do ill do my best. I cant promise, but do my best one possibly. Last question is Anthony Manzella asks, did you guys ever see ben franklin not the real person. Ben franklin by ken burns i love ken burns, but ive not seen his his film about franklin. Have you. No, im not aware of that film, actually. Im the massive hole in my knowledge of this. Name. Is it recent that people get forgotten . I mean, you came you mentioned my book making history. Ive got a whole chapter on women historians and i dont write about Katherine Mccauley because my editors, my british editors, specialist readers, none of them mentioned her. And its, as i said teasingly, too, you dont have an actual picture of her in the book. And one of the people whose, you know, dropped through the net, she made comments. She was basically sold in in an equivalent way and in her own time, because made the grievous error marrying a footman who was many years her junior which was just the excuse all the people you did not like have needed to remove her. I mean she was a bit of a figure of fun at the end, but there was Mary Wollstonecraft who very much is remembered and is very much celebrated by the romantics she says that Katherine Macaulay is greatest english woman whos ever lived which is the kind of quote the dream of to put on the front of books. I think, you know, i do believe that shes of such importance to some very crucial moments in the Foundation Story that she she needs to celebrated and she was very, very brave writer and and thats probably what did for her. And she was a bit too brave maybe. Now weve got a minute before. We go back to margaret. So a simple question. Is there any question youd have liked to have been asked . Maybe should have got round more, but that youd like to have a go at. Well, thats thats put me on the spot. Well i think save you. John werner says have you carried this kind of discussion to any high schools in the usa as part of history courses . No, id love to. Ive really enjoyed talking to american audiences about this because i really you know, ive huge admiration for scholars, the American Revolution. I find it such fascinating period of history. And this isnt me trying replace anything anybody said. All im just saying. Well, actually, this is a this thing that was also happening at the same time. And and theres a very weird relationship between Great Britain and the United States, which back right to the beginning, which is very much like bickering cousins in a way that i dont think many people have really worked out that people go on about special relationships and things so that which always mask Something Interesting and and a lot deeper and, and then i just i came to both understand my own country and america because after 1776, britain really just retreats into itself. It becomes a much more reactionary place, a much more socially conserve active us the kind of home grown populism. Whereas america really takes forward the ideals that britain had and. The one thing that i realized and really struck me was that for the first 76 years of the 18th century, britain was the revolutionary glamorous nation. But after that, it changed. And a lot of people dont remember that. Thank you, peter. Thank indeed. What a what a fascinating thought revolutionary because, of course, all of us who are American Revolutionary spirit that we have in boston dont see it that way. So its been so enlightening. And what a marvelous discussion this review of americas critical documents and also the english enlightenment. And if you could come back and talk about metaphysics, im sure many of us would be on for that. What a fascinating dialog. Thank you. As we do for, all our authors in the american inspiration series, weve asked peter moore to read from his book a brilliant peter, back to you. Okay. Right, ill get on with it. This is from the prolog. Its called july the fourth. I bet you can guess this. I wont tell you. This is just after jefferson has been given the job of writing the declaration or drafting, i should say. Jefferson met this challenge in sparkling style from its opening sentence, when in the course of human events becomes necessary for a people to advance from that. So subordination in which they have hitherto remained, his words flowed with what the historian called otis becker has termed that felicitous, haunting, which is the peculiar of jeffersons best writing. When adams first read the draft, he found himself delighted with its high tone and the flights of oratory with which he demanded some parts of the preamble with untitled or fortified by adams and Benjamin Franklin, who were also on the committee of five. Together, they also scrutinized jeffersons list of 24 distinct charges against king george, the third before the draft was was submitted for consideration. And then jefferson agonies truly began words, phrases and tired paragraphs were picked over, quibbled at or struck out as congress sought to find a balance that was palatable to all by the morning of the 4th of july, with about a quarter of his initial draft deleted jeffersons miseries at an end. Perhaps the tool rangy virginian enjoyed a morning stroll to the state house along philadelphia as clean, cobbled regular streets. Or perhaps like the gentleman as he was, he rode his horse. We just dont know. We can only be sure that at about breakfast time, abraham clark, delegate from, new jersey, was confiding in a letter home. Thats a declaration i expect. Will this day pass . It is nearly gone, after which it will be proclaimed with all the state and solemnity circumstance will admit it has gone so far that we must now be a free, independent state or a conquered country. Several items of business lay before congress that morning, adopting the amended text of the declaration was second on the list. So it was. But the midmorning affair handwritten copy of the text was produced. It was presumably a single sheet of standard crown paper 15 by 20 inches, but one that jefferson with his tidy quantifying mind might have calculated would reduce the size of the British Empire. Around 400,000 square miles. This crucial document in the history of the United States is now missing, presumed destroyed. But we can just about catch sight of it in our minds eyes the words flowing along in jeffersons school, masterly, hand much of the emotive language on slavery, king george and so on, had been scratched out during the previous days. But the most flourishing phrase had survived with only minimal adjustment. Adjustment to the end. This was a trio of nouns that appeared. The second sentence nouns that grew and enchantingly in length these words were destined one day to become an evergreen for politicians and a shorthand for that idea we call the American Dream life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Thank you, peter. How spectacular to be put in the room with these gentlemen, such wordsmiths and editors, also such idealists. Designers truly our American Dream. We really thank so much