Am sympathetic to the Prime Minister because his hands really are tied in the july crisis because there is a tradition of political assassination in serbia. It is a very rich tradition. What they are doing on the 28th of june they are reenacting the battle against the audubons when they lost and were extinguished by a nation but stuck a dagger into the salten and they were reenacting this. So feared assassination and part of what was tying his hands. He spun the ultimatum in such a way that first he made it sound like he was going to comply when he was telling paris, st. Petersburg and london. He knew he could not except the ultimatum in entirety because he may have been assassinated. In his confession he doesnt talk about objectives very well. He talks about the thing itself. A better time in norfolk than serbia many years ago. We have eight minutes until the next presentation. Thank you very much. [ applause ] here we are featuring American History tv programming and we would like to get your thoughts on our shows. Email us at americanhistorytv cspan. Org. We would like to tell you about some of our other American History tv programs. Join us every saturday at 4 00 p. M. Eastern for a look at history book shelf. Watch as American History writers talk about their books. Thats history book shelf every saturday at 4 00 p. M. Eastern here on American History tv on cspan 3. Holiday festivities start with the lighting of the National Christmas tree followed by White House Christmas decorations and the lighting of the capitol christmas tree. Then at 8 00 Supreme Court justice and former Florida Governor jeb bush on the bill of rights and the founding fathers. On cspan 2 venture into the art of good writing with steve pinker. See the feminist side of a superhero. At 7 00 p. M. Author pamela paul and others talk about reading habits. On American History tv the fall of the berlin wall with cspan footage of president george bush and bob dole with speeches. At noon fashion experts on first ladies fashion choices and how they represented the styles of the times in which they lived. At 10 00 tom brokaw on his more than 50 years of reporting on world events. Thats this christmas day. American history tv visited the mcarthur memorial which was hosting a symposium. Author Fredrick Dickenson talks about japans military involvement and rise as a global power during world war i. He describes japan as one of the few countries pulled in as an ally. This is about 50 minutes. Well, we will shift our focus a little bit to east asia. Professor Fredrick Dickenson teaches japanese history at the university of pennsylvania. He has degrees from Kyoto University in japan and Yale University where he has a phd in history. He has been a visiting professor at institutions in japan, belgium, in this country among his books are war and national reinvention, world war i and the triumph of a new japan. He will spike on the great war as world war. Welcome to professor dickenson. [ applause ] thanks very much. Thanks to all of you for sticking around for the final bash here. Im honored and delighted to be the last headliner, i guess, and to be able to use the opportunity to sort of go a little global. We have sort of steadily made our way outside europe. I am going to try my best to get us even farther. I do want to thank the mcarthur memorial, also the Hampton Roads naval museum and old dominion to inviting me here. It is a personal honor and privilege for me and i think it is a personal honor and privilege for asia to be included on the program of world war i. Thank you for that. You guys thought of it because you have mcarthur. I should have made my pilgrimage a long time ago. For us i do realize he is important in the First World War. For us we think of him as the asian general and one who was very much involved in the United States going global and going asia pacific in the 20th century. I think it is very apropo. I do want to speak of the larger issue of war in asia and why we should be worried about asia today. I think we will ultimately get there. Just to begin here with my frame of some of you already know of what the japanese are up to during the war. This is one of the enterprises. We will get there in a second. Its not just the siberian intervention. So of course this is the usual map of the world war. Its often depicted this way. For obvious reasons this makes sense. It is not a european war. It is a world war. You can see that much better with this kind of map. I think this map is quite astonishing. You notice with this map that almost every country you can think of is involved in the war in some way. It is only a few sort of areas in latin america that remain sort of blank. Other than that it is super global. You can talk about any one of these. Of course, i am only focusing on the east asia part. I would keep that in mind. For us americans it is not too difficult to think of this as a global war. We are not there in europe. We know we played an important part. It is a global war. For my perspective as an asianist i am here to tell you it is not just the americans that make it global. There are other folks who make it global. Back to this map again well notice where the United States is. Notice where the sort of connections with the war are most tennious. It is latin america. Particularly if you look at africa, middle east we heard the very important story about the balkans and middle east. Asia, basically all colored up. And i think that is a nice sort of reflection of the fact that its that part of the world if you are talking about stop it. If you are talking about this as a world war yes its this but it starts here. This is the really most important part. And im going to sort of give you why we need to think about what is going on here basically parallel with what we know is going on here. Keep in mind it is happening long before anything is happening over here. To start with sean nicely gave us a picture of contingency in history. I love that. I would like to get away from the sort of structural notion of slip slide to war. I will, however, begin with this frame which shows you basically in essence one of the sort of structural arguments is this war is dependent upon the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire. We are back to this map again. You can see how it is working. The balkan crisis leads up to the great war. Certainly are among the most important sort of initial triggers. I would sort of remind you that you have a similar situation going on in asia. It is basically a balkan crisis of the east as i noted here. What i mean essentially is china is the Ottoman Empire of the east. In other words, china is in sort of a similar circumstance. China is a great sort of long lasting dynastic empire. The political, economic, cultural sort of node of asia is getting into sort of deep trouble in the way that the Ottoman Empire is doing at basically the same time. You have difficulties in the Ottoman Empire beginning in the 1930s. Odium war is fought in china between the british and the french to obtain sort of more commercial rights in china. This is 1839 to 1841. You have the japanese war who come online and do defeat the chinese in war. Basically at this point by 1895 things are gang busters. Who is paying attention to what is in the world in the 1890s. Sure the balkans perhaps this is early for the balkans but certainly not early for asia. There are those very smart historians in the United States like brooks adams making the important comment that its eastern asia which is the prize for which all of the energetic nations are grasping. You can see this sort of language here. Its very much not simply being used in the middle east. It is not simply used in the scramble for africa but also used quite importantly in increasing sort of great power tension to asia. This i guess it is hard to see with this map here, but essentially what is happening particularly after the sinojapanese war is carve out spheres of influx. You are not taking parts of the dynasty apart but are carving out special interests, special ability to create to operate minds, create railroads, basically by the eve of the First World War most of the great european powers own most of the chinese economy and are moving in in various parts of china. Again, this is not formal colonial rule. Based upon where they are geographically in asia you have russians moving in. You have britain. You have the germans after 1895 moving in which is just very near the british sorry. Stop it. I cant see the map from here. [ inaudible ]. You go south you see the french moving in, et cetera. This is not formal colonial rule but it is substantial. It is a substantial sort of prize that all are waiting to sort of take advantage of particularly after the chinese are defeated by the chinese. Talk about the First World War. And these are coming after the for me it is a wonderful sort of vision of how things are sort of really picking up and important in asia to the extent. This is from the british perspective particularly in response to its competition visavis russia. I think that is quite significant. We do have sort of Great Power Competition. We have alliances. At the same time that we have things going on quite dramatically in europe. This really is well sort of the general large explanation of why it is that we have this strange phenomenon that is really is japan is well, if you think about japan and when it is declaring war it is declaring war soon after it is asked by the british because they are allies. In fact, the night of this formal sort of invitation the japanese cabinet meets and says we have to do something about this. And they are deciding, then, to align with britain to do their best to basically deal with German Forces that are in asia. And me it is quite remarkable because if you look at what countries throughout the world who is sort of plugged into this for the most parterres in the middle east and in africa and in Southeast Asia they plug into the war because of their former ties to the empire, japan has no formal ties, it is not part of any empire itself. It is one of a very few powers completely outside of the european orbit. It does declare war very early on. We are talking 1914 here. And sends to the germans an ultimatum to give up the territory where germans had been ensconc ensconced. They get a negative response and that leads basically to war. Again, just think about the timing here. It is quite impressive. And this is the beginning of a very substantial sort of japanese action in the war from the get go. We are talking first by september of 1914 the japanese are chasing the german navy outside im sorry, this is a japanese map. You can see here is the islands north of the equator which japan takes care of and ultimately and immediately occupies and takes over in addition to moving in right there and taking over that just two months later by november of 1914. We heard earlier today about the pivotal nature of the battle and how it is a great important sort of check to german power. This also was a significant check to german power. Essentially this is the end of german power in asia. So in that sense it is sort of a war that is won. Here we have the japanese accepting the german surrender in german micronesia. Here we have the japanese cavalry coming in where qingdao is located. Even though essentially the war against germany in the asia pacific is won by november 1914 the japanese do get involved because they are requested to in the war in the mediterranean in particular. It is the Japanese Navy that gets involved. And first they are involved in convoying British Imperial troops to the indian ocean. And there are several japanese sort of warships that are sent to the mediterranean after the most sort of serious threats begin to sort of rise up in the 1917. So between 1917 and 1918 there are japanese ships active in the mediterranean. Casualties in this war. Casualties that is japanese casualties that find themselves today in the island of malta. There is a grave especially in the British Cemetery dedicated to the 78 japanese sailors who lost their life in the battle against germans. So very substantial maybe substantial is saying a bit much but certainly a concrete sort of involvement in the war. You may not be quite as familiar with the story of japanese sort of aid in terms of material to the allies particularly russians. The japanese, their economy begins to boom and so they have a certain leeway and are able to sort of offer some aid, as well, to the allies. And of course you know the story of the siberian intervention whereby this basically ends up being the largest sort of Japanese Ground force engagement in the war, of course, happens very late in the war but it is another symbol of how japan is involved in the enterprise. And so what we are talking about is a substantial if you look at where japan is located a concrete tie in to the european war because of the Alliance Structure and the sort of Great Power Competition that has been sort of heating up in East Asia Pacific since the 19th century. It is also a reflection of a very substantial sort of Economic Growth that japan goes through sort of very similar to what United States sees which essentially catapults japan into basically an Industrial Power and this is happening at this time. And you can look at various measures of this in terms of, you know, number of exports expanding between this period, manufacturers goods as part of exports and becoming very, very important sort of proportion of the exports by the early 1920s. And what else do we have here . Japanese population expanding quite rapidly, as well. By 1925 the japanese are basically the fifth largest country in the world in terms of population. So this is all happening because of the economic boost of the First World War. On the one hand they are very much involved in concrete military action with the allies. On the other hand they are making out like gang busters because they are helping to supply and sell various things including shipping, textiles, et cetera. Very important part of the global story of the First World War. This is not all. The degree to which im always struck by the more you look, the degree to which both the ally powers and central powers are interested in getting the japanese engaged from the get go is quite astonishing. Of course, no one after the fact wants to admit that we were graveling for japanese aid but it is quite interesting to note that the fact that the british would go out of their way to tie an alliance and then say will you please help us august 7, 1914. And then also say please will you actually send troops to the western front. This is happening from the get go from the british. It is happening from the get go from the germans and austrians. They are trying their best to sort of lure the japanese into a separate piece because they realize the potential power from japan to turn the tables. I guess that is interesting. Talk about counter factual. I didnt include in my remarks but think about what would have happened after i tell you the whole story think about what would have happened had the japanese gone in the war on the side of the austrians. 1915 french request troops to the balkans. When the u. S. Gets involved what do they think of . They think of the japanese because they have been doing good work in the mediterranean. Can you help us, as well . They do what the japanese have been doing for the british empire. This is from 1914 until the end. You can see the japanese are very conscious of this. This is not the only sort of political cartoon you can pull out from contemporary japan. There are a number of images that shows the japanese soldiers sitting comfortably with european maidens depicted as godde goddesses. And its very serious stuff. And i tell you this because this is behind sort of the major sort of geopolitical sort of issue that i want to bring home today which japan sort of symbolizes during this war. That major geopolitical issue is the fact that japanese during the First World War are becoming for the first time a world power. By 1914 and 1919 just by virtue of the fact that they are seen as a fairly significant sort of tipping they can make a difference. Everyone wants them on their side. And their economy just continues to grow and makes that a reality. This is the point of why you invite the japanese. You may know the story that well, the japanese have a tendency to be a little bit on the silent side. They were fairly silent at the paris peace conference until it came to something important to them. The point is that they were there and they were invited to be there and were part of the big five sort of group that was at the paris conference ft this is the First International conference where japan sits down with the other big boys as number five. It gets better. At the washington conference they sit down with the big boys as number three. This is the naval conference in 192122. And they are, of course, acknowledged as having the Third Largest navy in the world. They are very seriously involved in discussions with the british and the americans on how we deal with the sort of arms race that is sort of getting out of control after the First World War. Again, a lot of it has been said about the washington conference, subsequent geneva conference and the japanese forsake this whole thing. That comes later. Lets preserve the contingency that was set up for us and recognize what is happening in 19191922. The japanese are involved in creating this International Peace structure because of the devastation of the First World War. Reflected in the words of the japanese Prime Minister in 1920. He says very proudly at paris as one of five great powers the empire of japan contributed to the recovery of world peace. Listen to the language here. He is not saying we got what we wanted in paris. We basically you know didnt make out very well. He is saying we participated in the new sort of International Discussion on peace. This is a first. With this the empire status has gained more and more authority and her responsibility to the world has become increasing ly [ inaudible ] that should work. So not just look what we got. It is look who we are now. We are something much different than what we were in 1914 and something very much different than 1905. And this is the beginning of japans very significant global presence, obviously. Okay. I said i was going to talk about the principle global indications. You can sort of guess where im going from here but its not quite what you think. Yes, i would agree with those who have already sort of hinted to the idea that the major sort of global implication of the european war is embodied by this quotation by sir edward gray. If you look at exercises that accompany this sort of world war i sort of conference and event that was produced on that work sheet they very much bring out this quotation from august 3 the very beginning of the war when sir edward grey is saying the lamps are going out. The lamps are going out all over europe. We shall not see them again in our lifetime. As it turns out this was a little bit of an overstatement. Maybe, depends on how you look at it. Europe was not destroyed by the war. It was sort of it was very, very significantly named. But, if you look at the long term it was very right. Its not simply the idea that the first war is bringing the american century. I would not deny we have an important shift to power principally at this event from europe to the United States, the u. S. Sort of begins to become the decider, so to speak, in political, economic and social terms. You can see this to the degree by which American Economy and culture comes in like gangbusters in japan in the 1920s. That is another story. This is clearly important but i have been talking more about this issue, the issue that yes its the beginning of the american century. Dont forget it is also the rise of japan. The most important thing is not the rise of japan but actually the other part here and not simply the decline of germany. It really is it seems to me you really do get a picture of where the world is going globally, geopolitically after 1919 in asia first, not in europe. What happens in europe the losing empires obviously those guys didnt get even if you think in terms of the french and british who won esb2bu p ly what happened in europe and africa. After 1919, not before. So even though wilson is coming out and would like to talk about selfdetermination and would like to move beyond an era of beyond empires that is not happening immediately and certainly not in the middle east and not africa. I would argue it is very much happening in asia in a way that is quite shocking. And you see this in well, remember this quotation. Remember the degree of interest in asia in the latter 19th century, the degree to which the great european empires were plugging into chinese economy. They are very sort of excited about Growth Potential and being there on the ground with whats happening. But what happens . This is another episode of one that i didnt mention. The socalled 21 demands. This is the diplomatic sort of negotiations with china where the japanese basically negotiate to get all kinds of privileges throughout china. Remember when i showed you the map about the great powers who have competition right after the sinojapanese war. Every power had their various parts of china. Japanese are going for broke because they know they can go for broke because the europeans are caught up elsewhere. Im not saying they are actually taking over china. What does happen is i guess this is a better illustration of it. Back to the siberian intervention. It is an allied intervention. The japanese are asked to join but they dont quite join on the same sort of terms that the americans thought they were going to come into when they originally asked them. What i mean by terms is basically the numbers. The interesting thing about the siberian intervention shows the degree to which japan has become the decider in asia in an area where the powers were very interested to be plugged into. Japanese troops, no one is near that. You can see all color territories, the orange part here is the japanese former empire. All the rest of this brownish is where the japanese troops are sort of making their way into, to everyones astonishment and amazement, what are we going to do . Another nice sort of visual picture of how things are happening very you know, the First World War causes changes in asia that are quite substantial that there is a sort of certain lag in europe. Of course, it happens in europe ultimately. In terms of empire it is not immediate. So, you know, given the sort of dramatic rise of japanese power during this time you have probably heard about american visions of japan towards the end of the war and basically they begin to get very nervous. They begin to sort of call the japanese various names. The worst thing you can call the japanese in 1918 is . Germany of asia. So various people in the United States and europe who are beginning to sort of associate the japanese with the terrible sort of militaryism and aggression they describe as sort of the beginning of the war in europe. And this obviously is a very bad thing. This has sort of been incorporated in as the actual sort of account of what is happening. What i would say is no. Japan is not the germany of asia but is astonishing everyone by its rise of power and no one is able to do anything about it. And, again, just to give you one other thing and just dealing with china here. It is basically the idea not simply that japan is rising but that japan is going to be the sort of determiner of events in asia. You have this specifically articulated in japan. Japanese general, but basically during the end of the war japan becomes most important political and economic presence in china. Look at the numbers for japan how they change in terms of its investment percentage and visavis the british who are the other most important power. Just see how the tables begin to turn. Obviously the british are still very important but the british cannot boast of having the most british nationals living in china. You have a very significant japanese physical presence in china by the end of the war through the 1920s. This is the beginning of something important. Here we see a japanese sort of sponsored textile mill with chinese workers. Essentially what im trying to say is for me looking at the events from the perspective of japan it is a global vision. It is also an interesting lesson in how we might think of where do we carry the legacy of the First World War. It used to be in the japanese case you are looking at the First World War to talk about what will happen in the Second World War. Some of these events happening in asia as sort of the precursor to japan, sort of very serious effort to sort of begin to take over asia and become articulated. I would just borrow from sean and say hold on. There are a lot of things that happen between that time and obviously we get there eventually but there is a whole different story in the 1920s. I would be happy to talk to you about it later. For me the most important sort of legacy of this war is not how it leads into the Second World War but how this teaches us the slow, Steady Movement of the center of sort of political and Economic Activity and core away from europe, away from the u. S. And somewhere very different. Have you been watching or listening to the sort of current events. We just had the apec conference in beijing. This vision of everyone dressing up in chinese sort of shirts gives you sort of an indication for me sort of the rise of japan in the First World War leads to. It doesnt lead to it could and obviously does. More importantly it is the beginning of a very substantial change or shift of shape or global gravity. Thanks very much. [ applause ] could you touch on why japan was mentioned in the Zimmerman Telegram . I suppose it is something to do with german ambition and hope and perhaps tied in some way with its desperate idea that japan would be a sort of serious decider if it comes out to be true that the japanese are in cahoots with the germans and perhaps willing to egg on the mexicans against the americans that could be a decider, a deciding sort of alternate factor. Thats all i would say. For me it really shows the degree to which, again, to bring up the name of japan is to bring up something actually very substantial 1914. It doesnt matter when. During this time it is a very important wildcard. Thats how i would explain it. Sir, could you go back to the slide about the japanese in korea . Yes. Okay. Was that here . Yes. The question i have is in the quote it says asia should be under the control of asians. Is that a feeling by the japanese . Or seeing this is said by a japanese in korea and what they did in china. No, obviously thinking about the japanese but its very useful to talk its not the complete fabrication. The idea is that they can sort of point to serious historical legacy of western empire building in asia and thats what the reference is. The idea is there should be someone in asia. It shouldnt be america. It shouldnt be a western power. Someone should be able to do something about these empires. I sort of pull this quote out of nowhere. He doesnt necessarily represent mainstream here but does i think the most important thing is to sort of he is a gauge of a certain mood in japan in 1914. It is a mood of opportunity. War breaks out in europe. We know that means people are going to be distracted. We have been trying all along even though we are an asianuation power. We are an asian empire. We have been trying to actually hang with the big boys. This is our opportunity. In that sense it is representative. I wouldnt say that this [ inaudible ] but there are certain echoes once you get to 1940 when greater east asia is articulated. Well bring you a mic. Earlier you were talking about the rapid increase of japan during world war i. I was wondering how the colonization story in 1910 of korea impacted that with resources and population. You had numbers listed talking about increased population. What was the impact of that . And what were the numbers . Korea does become a certain drain although the japanese are producing rice and help during the time of war in 1930s it is critical because you get manpower and Industrial Power and that is a principal source of industrial growth. I will say that japan becomes an Industrial Power in 1914 not because of korea. It would have been there regardless of korea but because of other sort of fundamentals that it has. It has Railroad Industry and shipping industry and textile industry. It has a new and important markets because of the excitement in europe. So this is really more critical than anything else, i would say. Thank you. Your mic is coming for you. On your map with the japanese intervention in 1919 i noticed that they had basically occupied maritime province of russia. Why didnt they hang on to that after the war . Were they forced out or did they give it up voluntarily . Good question. So the invitation is like a gift from the allies. The invitation to go join allied expedition. The rest of the allies are out by june 20, 1920. The Japanese Army command just cannot give up a good thing. This is the best thing that has happened to them during the war. It was a great victory but it is over and it gives us a little bit of territory and fortress and railroad but its not actually our territory. There are very interesting ideas, outlandish ideas to create an independent province in the maritime provinces. They dont know how to say no. What forces them out is japanese Public Opinion. And the japanese Public Opinion is fuelled by world Public Opinion. How can Public Opinion be so great . Just keep in mind that the japanese at this point are for the first time a world power. How in 1919 how do they think they can maintain the status of world power. The definition is totally changed. They can make it in 1919 not by virtue of expanding territory. They can make it by virtue of we are a part of the fivemember group that is working on building a new peace structure. That is how they get the moniker. They get the anointment that they are a world power. From the perspective of the civilian sort of leadership and from puginants in japan, especially if everyone else is sort of skipped out this is no good. Bad pr. Got to do something different. They get hounded and there are a few sort of significant loss of life of japanese troops along the way so they are forced out by 1922. My question is you had mentioned that the british had made a request for the japanese to send troops to the western front. The japanese were trying to impress the western allies. I wanted to know why didnt they send two divisions to the western front. I wanted to know why the japanese couldnt put together a force. The why should they ] la participate in this to the degree that we can to show that we are part of the great power sort of winning side. You are doing that with the navy already from the beginning. It is not absolutely painless. The japanese lose six ships during the entire war. They lose, as i said, 70 some odd sailors in the mediterranean. It would have been a much different story if they would have sent troops. It was no inkling from the beginning, no will to send troops to europe. Its very interesting in this regard to compare the japanese participation in the european war with the chinese. You may know because of the great scholarship by my colleague that the chinese send bodies, they send laborers. They are not soldiers but laborers, 150,000 of them to the western front to help with digging trenches, carrying stuff back and forth. You can go to any number of these sort of cemeteries and find the chinese graves. You wont find japanese graves there. You will only find them chinese graves. The chinese are willing to do that because that is all they have to give. The japanese have a navy and they can give substantial help and it is because of that substantial help that the allies are willing to give them everything they want at the paris peace conference. The most important thing, of course, is the ability to actually stay and to stick around and that changes. I guess that would be the answer. To put more negative spin on this from the perspective of the u. S. The reason that japan is at the table is they are perceived as a threat. They are a world power but a dangerous one. So a thin line between being strong and being too strong. And obviously from the perspective of the americans in asia pacific the japanese are from the get go too strong. But i wouldnt you know, if f u. S. japan relations it goes to the japanese war, right . It gives you the famous quote of teddy roosevelt. Yes, the battle of ritoshima straits, greatest thing that ever happened. You know, hes fligdelighted th sort of got a bloody nose. Next phrase, oh, i wonder what this means between us and them in the future . Essentially the big deal for the United States essentially is that japan in 1914 september becomes a pacific empire. Its already an empire but its a pacific empire. Well, whats that all about . The americans thought you know, as you know, americans have been battling with the japanese for a while now to be the pacific empire. It starts in hawaii. Long before we even sort of take over in the philippines. Yes, were very conscious of the japanese. And it goes back to the china trade. The americans need a china trade in order to be economically viable, visavis britain. Anyone whos anyone, the declaration or whatever, robert morris, they are investing in china trade. Null and so thats very important. China becomes important. The otter trade becomes important along San Francisco and washington. Those guys become viable because the chinese want our skins. This is what you can sorted of this is what you can trade for chinese tea. Null and then the japanese the american navy, merchant marine, the largest portion of the merchant marine is in the pacific and its substantial by the at least 1850s, as i recall. So, its asiapacific for the United States is very critical even long before the 20th century. The macarthurs knew that in the early 20th century. That obviously leads to a certain amount of competitive sort of rooifry with the japanese with the other rising power but theres plenty of recognition especially in the 1920s when the United States takes over britain as japans most important trading partner, that this could be a very profitable relationship. It is a very profitable relationship. So, i wouldnt deny that there is plenty of worry in the United States from the get go. But i would say thats part of the story. There are profiting nicely from the rise of japan and american bankers going to japan, american carmakers going, ge i mean ford going to japan and essentially investing in mancurian. This is why it takes americans long to react to the bad things japanese are doing from 1931 and on in manchuria. Lets hope theyll sort of behave themselves tomorrow. How about tomorrow . Obviously, it never happens that way. But i think thats a nice sort of reflection of how of our of the critical interdependence of United States and japan after the First World War. One more . That is a good segue into something i was looking at the graphic of the surrender of singtau, the fall of the philippines and dutch indies of 1942 and how those prisoners were treated. Right. Im curious the fate and treatment both in terms of the actual mechanics of the surrender and treatment of them in prisoner of war camps. Among the thousands of germans that fell prisoner to the japanese during the First World War. Well, this is a wonderful sort of episode in german japanese relations that both sides like to recall. Thats just lets dont go to the let the story go to the 1930s but lets talk about the First World War where, yes, 3,000 german troops are basically transported to japan. And theyre put in various camps, makeshift camps because the japanese werent intending or they hadnt planneded on what was going on. Some in temple grounds and elsewhere, treated fairly well. And from the japanese perspective this is a great episode of how japanese learned to love beethovens 9th is symphony. They allowed the germans to have their instruments. Maybe they gave them instruments. Andtun germans left bread bakin technology. You can go to kolbet and find bread bakeries with an interesting pedigree going all the way back to the german prisoners of war that were, you know, taken fairly good care of during the war. I guess the followup