Administrations trying to keep his sources secret after uncovering classified government programs, includingspying on americans. Will you divulge your source . No. Stahl never. Never, no. Basically, the choice the governments given me is give up everything i believe or go to jail. So im not going to talk. Hes a monster that happened to rise up in a criminal organization that was making billions of dollars. Whitaker the monster hes talking about was the head of an International Drug cartel that put more narcotics on u. S. Streets than any other in history. Known as el chapo, he became the most wanted man in the world, infamous for his James Bondlike escape from authority. The tub. Look at this. The escape hatch. What was the end of the line like for public enemy number one . Thats our story tonight. Im steve kroft. Im lesley stahl. Im morley safer. Im bob simon. Im bill whitaker. Im scott pelley. Those stories tonight on 60 minutes. My name is karen and i have diabetic nerve pain. 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Pelley james comey, the director of the f. B. I. , says the internet is the most dangerous parking lot imaginable, meaning that, online, youll get mugged in ways that you never saw coming. We saw what he meant this month when jp morgan chase, the nations largest bank, admitted that its system was looted for weeks by computer criminals who stole personal information from 83 million customers. Last week on 60 minutes, we spoke to james comey about terrorism. Tonight, a surprising conversation about our lives online not only the criminal menace, but also snooping by agencies like the f. B. I. What does americas top cop think of government surveillance . Well, as we said, its a surprising conversation. James comey i believe that americans should be deeply skeptical of government power. You cannot trust people in power. The founders knew that. Thats why they divided power among three branches, to set interest against interest. Pelley with regard to privacy and civil liberties, what guarantee are you willing to give to the American People . Comey the promise ive tried to honor my entire career that the rule of law and the design of the founders, right, the oversight of courts and the oversight of congress will be at the heart of what the f. B. I. Does, the way youd want it to be. Pelley does the f. B. I. Gather electronic surveillance that is then passed to the National Security agency . Comey thats one of those things i dont know whether i can talk about that in an open setting, so i. I better not start to go down that road with you. Pelley you have said, we shouldnt be doing anything that we cant explain. But these programs are top secret. The American People cant see them and you cant explain them. Comey right. We cant explain everything to everybody, or the bad guys will find out what our capabilities are, both nations and individuals. What i mean is i need to be able to explain it either directly to the American People or to their elected representatives, which we do extensively with congress. Pelley there is no surveillance without court order . Comey by the f. B. I. . No. We dont do electronic surveillance without a court order. Pelley you know that some people are going to roll their eyes when they hear that . Comey yeah, but we cannot read your emails or listen to your calls without going to a federal judge, making a showing of probable cause that you are a terrorist, an agent of a foreign power, or a serious criminal of some sort, and get permission for a limited period of time to intercept those communications. It is an extremely burdensome process, and i like it that way. Pelley thats a principle over which james comey is willing to sacrifice his career. He proved it in 2004 when he was Deputy Attorney general. Comey was asked to reauthorize a package of top secret warrantless surveillance targeting foreign terrorists. But comey told us significant aspects of the massive program were not lawful. He wouldnt be specific because its still top secret. This was not something you were willing to stand for . Comey no, i was the Deputy Attorney general of the United States. We were not going to authorize, reauthorize, or participate in activities that did not have a lawful basis. Pelley at the time, comey was in charge at the Justice Department because attorney general John Ashcroft was in intensive care with nearfatal pancreatitis. When comey refused to sign off, the president s chief of staff, andy card, headed to the hospital to get ashcrofts okay. You got in a car with lights and sirens and raced to the hospital to beat the president s chief of staff there . Comey yep, raced over there, ran up the stairs, got there first. Pelley what did you tell the attorney general, lying in his hospital bed . Comey not much, because he was very, very bad off. I tried to see whether he was oriented as to place and time, and it was clear to me that he wasnt. I tried to have him understand what this was about. And it wasnt clear to me that he understood what i was saying, so i sat down to wait. Pelley to wait for andy card, the president s chief of staff . Comey yeah, and thenwhite House Counsel gonzales. Pelley they spoke to attorney general ashcroft and said that the program should be reauthorized, and you were there to argue that it should not be. How did it end . Comey with the attorney general surprising me, shocking me by pushing himself up on his elbows, and in very strong terms, articulating the merits of the matter. And then saying, but. But that doesnt matter, because im not the attorney general. And then he turned to me and pointed and said, theres the attorney general. And then he fell back, and they turned and left. Pelley youd won the day . Comey yeah, i didnt feel that way. Pelley how did you feel . Comey probably a little sick, and a little sense of unreality that this was happening. Pelley the next day, some in the white house tried to force the authorization through a different way, so comey wrote a letter of resignation to the president , calling the situation apocalyptic and fundamentally wrong. He left the letter on his desk, and he and f. B. I. Director Robert Mueller went to the white house to resign. Comey yeah. We stood there together, waiting to go meet the president , looking out at the rose garden, both of us knowing this was our last time there and the end of our government careers. Pelley wasnt it your responsibility to support the president . Comey no. No, my responsibility, i took an oath to support and defend the constitution of the United States. Pelley this was something the president wanted to go forward with. And you were standing in front of the president of the United States telling him he shouldnt do it, and if he did, youd quit. Do i have that right . Comey i dont think i expressly threatened to quit at any point. But that was understood. Pelley president bush was persuaded. The program that weve discussed, as i understand it, was in fact reauthorized, but in a modified form . It was made to conform to the law, in your estimation . Comey yes. Pelley help me understand the principle at stake here that caused you to write a letter of resignation, to rush to the attorney generals bedside, to tell the president that he couldnt have what he wanted, and to face down the president s chief of staff. What was it that motivated that . Comey the rule of law. Simple as that. Pelley we talked with comey, who is 68, at his headquarters in washington. In technology, the cutting edge cuts both ways, and comey told us hes worried now that apple and google have the power to upend the rule of law. Until now, a judge could order those companies to unlock a criminal suspects phone. But their new software makes it impossible for them to crack a code set by the user. Comey the notion that we would market devices that would allow someone to place themselves beyond the law troubles me a lot. As a country, i dont know why we would want to put people beyond the law that is, sell cars with trunks that couldnt ever be opened by Law Enforcement with a court order, or sell an apartment that could never be entered, even by Law Enforcement. Would you want to live in that neighborhood . This is a similar concern. The notion that people have devices, again, that, with court orders based on a showing of probable cause in a case involving kidnapping or Child Exploitation or terrorism, we could never open that phone . My sense is that weve gone too far when weve gone there. Pelley the f. B. I. Is spending a lot of its time online these days. This is a new cybercrime headquarters that the public hasnt seen before. We agreed to keep the location secret. They call it cywatch, and it pulls in resources from the c. I. A. , n. S. A. , and others. Comeys agents are running down leads in the theft of jp morgans data. Often in cases like that, the suspects are overseas. So the trouble is, in cyberspace, where do you put the handcuffs . Comey its too easy for those criminals to think that i can sit in my basement halfway around the world and steal everything that matters to an american. And its a freebie, because im so far away. Pelley a lot of those people are operating in countries where theyre not going to be given up to the United States russia, china, elsewhere. Comey yep, a challenge that we face, so we try to approach that two ways. One, work with all foreign nations to try and have them understand that its in nobodys interest to have criminal thugs in your country, and second, again, to look to lay hands on them if they leave those safe havens to impose a real cost on them. We want them looking over their shoulders when theyre sitting at the keyboard. Pelley when the phone rings in the middle of the night, which im sure it does, whats your first thought . Comey something has blown up. Yeah. Pelley its terrorism that concerns you the most, even after all we said about cyber crime. Comey yeah, i think thats right, because its terrorism that can have the most horrific, Immediate Impact on innocent people. Pelley in the age of terrorism, the budget of the f. B. I. Has doubled, adding capabilities like this Reference Library for bombs. Since 2003, theyve analyzed 100,000 bombs sent here from 40 nations. From blasted remains like this circuit board, they can piece together the what and the how that lead to the who. Its just some of the 21st Century Technology that is transforming the 106yearold bureau. We also saw a new virtual world, where agents are put through any nightmare that instructors can program into their goggles. Comey to their minds eye, theyre in an alley or theyre in an Apartment Building or theyre coming into a house, because the computer can create that through the Virtual Reality glasses that they wear. Its a great way to be able to train lots of people for lots of different missions, all in a big empty room. F. B. I. let me see your hands pelley were told that the deadliest avatar is a little old lady with a handgun. Subject detained pelley we also traveled to a town that doesnt exist on any map. Its a crime scene training ground. And when we were there, the agents were using lasers to figure out from which direction shots were fired. A fog machine reveals the beam in daylight, but in this indoor town, it can be night if need be. With what the f. B. I. Can do expanding so rapidly, james comey keeps this memo right on his desk to remind him of what the bureau shouldnt do. Marked secret, its a 1963 request from f. B. I. Director j. Edgar hoover titled Martin Luther king, jr. Security matter communist. Hoover requests authority for technical surveillance of king. The approval is signed by attorney general robert kennedy. And there was no court order. It was the signature of the f. B. I. Director and the signature of the attorney general . Comey yep. And then, openended no time limit, no space restriction, no review, no oversight. Pelley and given the threats in the world today, wouldnt that make your job so much easier . Comey in a sense, but in. Also in a sense, we would give up so much that makes sure that were rooted in the rule of law that id never want to make that trade. Pelley some of the worst of the f. B. I. s history is in its investigation of dr. King. So, on comeys orders, f. B. I. Academy instructors now bring new agents here to talk about values lost in the pursuit of the man who became a monument. Character, courage, collaboration, competence. We have to be able to call on those tools in our toolbox to be able to make sure that we are correcting some of the things that happened in the past. Pelley whats the lesson . Comey the lesson is the importance of never becoming untethered to oversight and accountability. I want all of my new special agents and intelligence analysts to understand that portion of the f. B. I. s history, the f. B. I. s interaction with dr. King, and draw from it an understanding of the dangers of falling in love with our own rectitude. I got this. [thinking] is it that time . The son picks up the check . [thinking] im still working. Hes retired. I hope hes saving. I hope he saved enough. Who matters most to you says the most about you. At massmutual were owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. Whether youre just starting your 401 k or you are ready for retirement, well help you get there. And cialis for daily use helps you be Ready Anytime the moment is right. 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Hi, baby hi, mama take us home wow its new chunky beerncheese with beef and bacon soup. Beer. Cheese. Beef. Bacon. I love it. And mama loves you. [ all ] awwwwww it fills you up right. [ all ] awwwwww went to the auction. Started my camry. Won a storage locker. Found an old guitar. Tracked down the previous owner. Reunited them. Hit the jackpot. The bold new camry. One bold choice leads to another. Toyota. Lets go places. Stahl youve just heard f. B. I. Director comey discuss the n. S. A. Surveillance program with scott. This is a story about another facet of the n. S. A. Program, involving wiretaps and what happens when the demands of National Security collide with the publics right to know. That dilemma is at the heart of the case of james risen, a pulitzerprize winning Investigative Reporter for the New York Times. Risen was the first to break the story about the n. S. A. s secret wiretapping program that monitored americans phone calls without a Court Warrant. Hes been subpoenaed to divulge his Confidential Sources in a separate federal criminal trial. He appealed the subpoena all the way up to the supreme court, but the court turned down his petition. Now, if he doesnt name names, he could go to jail. Will you divulge your source . James risen no. Stahl never . Risen never, no. Basically, the choice the governments given me is give up everything i believe or go to jail. So, im not going to. Im not going to talk. Stahl those who know jim risen say he isnt bluffing, that hes stubborn, curmudgeonly and dogged. Sometimes you get yourself in trouble. Risen yeah, the governments been after me for quite a while now, so. Stahl well, because of what you publish, not personal, right . Risen feels personal. laughs stahl he says the current standoff with the government began in 2004 over what would become the biggest story of his