Afghanistan and they will continue doing it until one stops them. Rose we conclude this evening with a new film called hateship and loveship it stars kristen wiig and stars liza johnson. Better take it off please and wrap it up. Wonderful. I think its kind of an interesting character to see these days someone thats so socially and isnt really in the world that we live in. Shes sort of like in her own little world in this house taking care of this woman and she gets sort of like pushed into reality and i thought that was kind of interesting. Rose afghanistan, pakistan and a new movie starring kristen wiig next. Theres a saying around here you stand behind what you say. Around here, we dont make excuses, we make commitments. And when you cant live up to them, you own up and make it right. Some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where its needed most. But i know youll still find it, when you know where to look. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose Carlotta Gall is here, shes a Pulitzer Prize winning journal else in the north africa correspondent for the New York Times. For a decade she reported from afghanistan following 911 attacks. She wrote about it in her new book called the wrong enemy are america in afghanistan, 20012014. Im very pleased to have her here at this table for the first time. Welcome. Thank you. Rose and congratulations. Thank you. Rose much to talk about. First the elections. Whats your assessment of the elections. Praising it from one end to the other in terms of the courage of the people, the Afghan People who went to the polls. Yes. And i was there just before the election. It was very exciting. A lot of debate, a lot of people talking about voting who didnt vote before because they didnt, they either didnt like karzai or they were distressed at the state of country. Whole lines of people lining up to go which i was there for the last elecxn. It was empty city. Nobody went out. So some great movements there and very exciting. Rose you attribute it to what. The fact theyre voting for someone new now. The karzai era of 12 years of president karzai is finished and they had someone new and that was something to think about it. A lot of young people were debating on the streets and on tv. I think also theyre very worried about what happens beyond 2014 with the withdrawal of western troops. And so they wanted to choose someone and they really want to have someone who takes them forward. Rose someone to stop the taliban or negotiate. To keep good relations with the west. A lot of people talked to me even inside the palace people talked to me in terms of karzai had not signed a Security Agreement with the states. Then they want someone to help them tackle pakistan which they see is the real culprit. Rose and so do you. Well get to that in a moment. Tell me about the Afghan People. Yes. A lot of people asked me that. Why did i stay so long. Because of the Afghan People. They are incredibly warm, tough. You dont want them to be your enemy. But amazingly hospitable and almost other worldly in that theyve had an ancient civilization which is still in tact. Their traditions are still in tact. They still have very tribal system. Very very religion system. Theyre very conservative muslims as countries go. And i think they still have values that often in the west weve only forgotten. They go to funerals, they go to weddings. They spend time. They visit you when youre sick or you come to visit, they Pay Attention to all those things, personal things. So thats wonderfully impressive when youre a reporter traveling through or even a visitor for a few days. Theyre amazingly warm so that draws you in to their culture and their whole tradition. Its great. Rose then explain karzai. I think as time goes on well probably reflect a bit more about his good and bad points. I think hes a master politician. And holbrook used to say this too, Richard Holbrook. Rose he didnt get along with him. No. But i think holbrook recognized his color political ability to maneuver, to debate, to get what he wanted so that can be frustrating i think for the west. For a long time the Bush Administration found he was the yes man, he did as they said. He was easily led. He went along with everything the whole western project and then i think he got very very disillusioned with the west and with americans in particular. Especially over civilian casualties as you know but also over the reluctance of the west to confront pakistan and what was going on. That really turned karzai against the west. He became disillusioned. I saw him fatigued just last week and he went on to the same thing saying that he thinks america is against him trying to stuff his efforts to make peace with the taliban and so on. So a lot of that is past the peak and its become sort of a personal vendetta now again the west. I think he feels betrayed and badly used. And so that he cannot get over. But i think his ability to maneuver through afghan politicians and survive is really astounding. Hes no longer serving leader of afghanistan for i mean after the king but for a long time he stayed at the helm and survived and not had a knife in the back. Rose his brother did. Yes, yes. So there you are. And a lot of former leaders in afghanistan have ended. Rose and america still stands he was corrupt. Hes not a bad man personally. Ive been through quite a few president s, and hes one of the most likeable. Rose yes. His due to corruption is i think dont make enemies which is the survival of the president of afghanistan. He would rather look the other way when confronted including his own brother. Rose family. And then theres a sort of looseness about what is corruption, which is a failure. I think for him. He was given all these suitcases of cash by the cia in the early days. He just took it for granted, he loved to show largess and passed it on. He runs his own president ial palace as a place of favors. But that i think is not a lack of morality, he just, he just has a looser view of what is corruption than we do, perhaps. And i think that is a failing. But i dont think hes particularly bad man and i dont think he leads the corruption. I think he just lets it happen. I dont think hes a mastering the money for himself. Rose then theres the question where the troops will remain after 2014 and why he refused to reach an agreement and the other president ial candidates have said they would. In fact he this want them and even the iraqis have advised him. Yes. But you see, someone put him up to that. Hes become very suspicious. Rose of . Of the west. Rose whose intent might be in his mind. Well i think where it started he saw himself being scapegoated. The war was going bad and the Obama Administration started to blame him. And i think there was a bit of truth in that. There was a lot of leaks. Rose a bit of truth in the fact that the Obama Administration. That used, threw the blame on him. When the war goes bad, you know, people started to blame karzai much more. When the war was going well, it was easier. So i think the falling out came, i think he worked, i think a lot of the leaks were given out far too freely and far too rose what america has had the best relationship. I think had a close relationship. Well i think he understood him. Hes afghan as well at heart and he understood where he was coming from. And i think understood his failings but also understood and admired his, you know, his bravery, his desire to serve his country. He genuinely does want better for his country. Hes not a good administrator. He doesnt know often how to do it. I think hes not a good commander in chief also. But i think hes had a more flack than he deserves and i think in thed, as we move on to another president , we will probably see people having a second look at karzai. Rose who 2k50u69 the president will be. I think it will go to a second round and i think it will from probably be if the passion comes out which is problematic in the south and the east where the securitys bad. But if they come out, they will stick to their tribe and they will vote. Rose its a big what if question but what if massud had lived. I think of that almost every week, every day. I think its a great sadness. I think he would have built an army and police force much quicker. One of the lessons he learned when they were in power in the 90s which as you know was a terribly difficult time in afghanistan, there was a civil war and all factions citing each other. The one thing he learned trying to hold things together in kabul with the fighters when they come in from the hills, they cant police. They dont know how to police. So he set up a Police Academy actually when he was in the resistance against the taliban. And i think he would have known immediately to forge a Strong Police force because that i show as one of the major failings in the early years of after the taliban fell that there were no police. And taliban just walked in. Rose i could be wrong about this and you know much better. I always had some reason to believe that general mcchrystal had a pretty good working relationship. Yes, right, he did. And i think karzai often, you know, asked president obama to keep him on even when he was firing him. And then mcchrystal made a personal visit back at the invitation of karzai. So youre right. He i think was trust and i think he worked very hard trying to menld mend that and trying o survive karzai. He didnt manage really to get karzai to buy into the surge. Karzai went and he did travel down, he did do as he was asked but he still never really supported the surge which i think was also a shame because i think it was needed and mcchrystal was doing the right thing and karzai just couldnt quite take that step. Rose pakistan. Do you think pakistans central to this. Of course pakistan is paranoid about its own security and it has to dominate pakistan for its own securities. Rose and worries about india. Yes. But also what i think it is, the Pakistan Military runs thing in pakistan and the service is part of the military. And as you know since independence, theyve had more time under military government than under civilian government pakistan. Theyve had these coups and these military dictatorships. And the military just believed this is the way to go. And they i think they had success against the russians running the majority in a guerrilla war against the russians. They still had the soviet union and they just continued thinking this is the way to do it, this is what they are good at and they are good at it. They continued. They had their own proxy fighting to go into kashmir and the cal ban rose up and quickly caught up to them. And now this is the only thing they know how to, they really believe theyre defending pakistans interest and ensuring a client state in afghanistan. And theyre going to continue doing it until someone stops them. And i think it has to be a civilian. Rose who is going to stop them. I think it has to be a civilian government. Rose do you think the United States well stop them. They could have done more to stop them. Im not suggesting boots on the ground or bombing. And to tell the people the truth, this is probably why i wrote the book. Youve got to tell the pakistani people whats going on because most of them dont know what their own governments doing. Rose the meese you wrote in the New York Times magazine just simply blanked out in pakistan. Yes. Most of the front page was white. They didnt want to print it, you know. And that was a bit of self censorship but its because the pressure on the editors in pakistan its very strong not to cross red lines. You dont talk about pakistans support for taliban, you dont talk about sponsorship of terrorism which is what it is and you dont talk about Nuclear Issues which is another huge issue in pakistan. I feel it must come out, it must be open to the people. And then i think with civilian government will, if it helps to be strong will eventually seize back the Security Policy and Foreign Policy from the military. In a moment its all in the hands of the military and they are society a ruinous course. Rose bhutta would have done something about it. She said she wanted to. In the first term of Prime Minister she was hood winked and couldnt control things. In the end i talked to her quite a lot in her campaign. She knew what needed to be done and was determined to do it. And of course it was dangerous talk. Rose you believed who killed her . I believe rose musharraf. I think he knew about it. It was part of the commander meeting which he chaired. Rose should we kill her or have her be killed. The taliban had a plan to kill her and lets do nothing. So they let rose produce our own security for her. They didnt reduce it, they just never gave her security. And that comes out in the u. N. Report that she never was given the proper security that other former Prime Ministers were given. But the point is that they knew there was a plot and they did nothing to stop it and in fact they talked about the plot at this security meeting. So i blame them all. And this is where you see that pakistan is really playing with the devil because they have relations with alqaeda, people with taliban people. Theyre list anything theyre watching, theyre meeting, having meetings with them and they are using them sometimes to do their dirty work and its all deniable and we cant control. Rose you believe they clearly knew where omar is. Absolutely. Hes their man. Rose yes, i know. So yes. Rose do the americans know where he is. No, i doubt it. No probably not, to pinpoint. Hell sure they pick up bits and pieces like we do. I mean all of these, you cant live and work in country for 12 years as i have and not get these constant feeds oh he was cited, he visited his family for the ranadan. In fact he worked as a body guard. He didnt go inside but he know it was omars house and stood outside and returned. You hear these stories. You cant work there and live there without hearing. Often you dont print them because you know you come across them and theyre just this and that. After living for 12 years you have to just put it all in a book. Rose indeed and im glad you have. Before we talk about is Osama Bin Laden and how they protected him. Heres Richard Holbrook talking about you. The people who joined the taliban because of a feeling theyve been unfairly treated by the government or government corruption or abuse by the government. 25 who joined because of perceived injustice or corruption from the government, that is our mission to help the Afghan Government eliminate those issues that are so famous and well covered by journalists, brilliant journalists including john burns and dexter fillkins and all these people and their coverage has been terrific. The other 70 , the floating people who picked up guns in a culture where guns are very popular. Its a long standing historical tradition. That you have to deal with by a much better Public Information program. Rose he mentioned dexter fillkins. This is what dexter wrote in a blog post. What pakistan knew about bin laden from may 2nd 2011. Now that osama is dead the most intriguing question is this. Did any pack tan official hide him. Hiding in an urban area raises questions like who was taking care of him and how. Its 30 miles from pakistanis capitol and it is home to a military base and military academy and many retired pakistani officials. Conspiracy theories abound in pakistan since 911 the most common is that bin laden was being sheltered by the isi. Whats the case you have for that. Exactly that. That everyone talks about it. Everyone believes that. Hes 30, hes just a few hundred yards from the top military academy. I mean i went to the house and you can see the walls of the military academy just there. So i go through it in the book. There are so many things but you have to build up the case slowly. Theres so many things that point to it that every time the head of the army would come to the military academy for the Graduation Parade over year that whole town gets checked for security reasons because they do have their own taliban problems. So every street somebody would come and check all the houses. Rose except . Right. So then you say well okay well how come they didnt check the house. In fact are they allowed to step inside the house or do they just knock on the door. Then you find out on every street theres someone working for the isi, the pakistani intelligence who then talks to all the people servants usually, all the good guards or the watch men who work on the houses. So they then find have there been recent cummings and goings, who lives there, how many men and women and so on. They have all these things you piece together slowly. But you realize that they had to have had a watch on something. So what happens is they they are actually told, the people watching that street theyre told this is a safe house you keep away. So theyre sort of warned off because its a special house. Thats the intelligence house. Its someones house. And so the police are also told that way. They are warned off. So then you have to keep looking. So eventually it took me two years but eventually i did keep talking to everyone trying to piece together a general, the former isi chief who actually said, he actually said he believed musharraf was put or had him put there and that it was his civilian intelligence chief who put him there. He then slightly watered down his story under pressure. Rose watered down what he told you. Yeah. Well he also told the press. It was in the press and then he sort of said he was misunderstood. But i went back to see him and it was pretty clear that he still believed what he said. Rose he said there was a single he didnt say that. Eventually i found someone who i cant name im afraid because its extremely dangerous for him. But who is in the Intelligence Service, who then said there is a special desk. There has been this one man who mans it, nobody else knows only the top bosses, go straight up. He can act without referring anything so he can make his