His closest and most appreciated friends and advisors and partners and talked about a special and indispensable relationship with the United Kingdom. I think from the top, therefore, the relationship is very strong but its got much more to it than that. Weve got a defense relationship, a Foreign Affairs relationship, a powerful economic, business and cultural relationship. Rose the Whitney Museum and British Ambassador when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by rose additional funding provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose the Whitney Museum of american art opened in new yorks Greenwich Village in 1931. Its mandate was to focus exclusively on the art and artists of this country. The museum moved to the marcel designed building on madison avenue in 1966. Now the whitney returns to its roots. Its new building designedly renzo piano will open just a few blocks from his original location. Its a contribution to downtown and the changing landscape. Joining me is renzo piano, the architect and museums director adam weinberg. This is a remarkable story about art, architects, about a humid, its about a city and it is about the driving passion of people to make sure that the whitney would live on and reflect our time in the future as well. So its a great honor to have and and renzo piano back at this table. Welcome. So its complete after some dozen years of planning and building. How do you characterize this moment for you . Well, the whitney has been trying to expand, actually, for nearly 30 years. We tried to expand next to our building uptown. It was actually four directors ago. The collection, when we first moved in was only 2,000 works and today its 22,000 works. The idea of being able to see not just what we have but to offer possibilities and aspirational spaces for artists to do things like weve never been able to do before. Rose and the great irony is you going back to your roots. And it feels comfortable. The greatest compliment weve received in the last weeks is it feels like the whitney, even though its a very different kind of space. Rose but hasnt there been some effort to design a new Whitney Building for a while . Yes, its been going on for decades. Michael graves many years ago made an attempt and kulhauf did and then renzo uptown but we agreed it wasnt the space you needed for contemporary art. Rose leonard is a great friend of this program and im sure a friend of yours. He calls you up and says what . I was on the site of the Morgan Library that day. Rose that you designed. Yeah, that i designed. I was actually inside the big globe. He called and said why dont you come for coffee . Of course, he was lying because i said, of course, i come for the coffee. Rose tell me the truth did you have any notion of what he really wanted to talk to you about no. Rose was designing a new building . No, i didnt know anything. Also, im like children, im fooled. Im like playing in the sand in the beach and somebody come up and say i have to play. So i have to do that. So i went up and came in the board room, and it was full of people. It was a Design Selection committee. And great people. Rose adam was there. Adam was there. Rose learned, melba, bob hurst so youre sitting there with the board, not just leonard. No, with the entire board. Rose yeah. Then i started to think that it wasnt coffee laughter rose it was not about coffee. So we started to talk and thats all. Rose no, thats not all. There was actually a bit of behind the scenes charlie in that we were interviewing a number of architects and leonard said we should ask one or two questions to every architect as a constant. So we asked every single architect, about a dozen, what is your Favorite Museum building in the world . And every architect named one of renzos building and at the end of the process leonard turned and said, wait a minute, we have 12 architects, Everybody Loves renzo pianos buildings, why arent we talking to renzo piano . laughter rose which ones did they love . The byler museum, the manil and the pampadi museum, those three were the ones names came you have over and over again. Rose but you said to them, im not prepared to compete. I dont do that. If you want me to do it, offer me job and ill me the job and ill do it. Yeah, but i hope you understand. You saw the layout. At a certain age you dont want to fall in love with jobs like that. You dont want to fall in love and then the bride goes away with somebody else, its just too much. Rose so you dont want to fall in love with the idea of building this museum because youre going to tell them what your vision may be and then they may say were going with somebody else. Yes, its a passion. You cannot do this profession without passion. You have to put yourself into it. And also this was really incredible because i am european, i am italian. I grew up in my country. You grow up with great rulers and culture in italy but at the same time you need freedom rebellion and progress. For me, american art is about purpose is about a wide attitude. So for me making the new of the american art is an incredible challenge. Bringing my sense with freedom which is absolute necessity. Rose you hope to incorporate following elements into the museums design social life urbanity, invention, construction, technology, poetry and light. Thats hugely ambitious laughter but this is true. It is about all those things coming together. Its about social life urbanity, a sense of community, its about art, its about poetry, its about fighting against gravity, trying to create something that is playing with light and thats part of it. But then that building downtown weighs 28,000 tons, made out of steel and everything else. But you need innovation to do that and this building must last for thousands and thousands of years. Rose and in a unique place. How did you find the place . It was a place that the city had reserved at the south end of the high line. They wanted a culture anchor for the side line. Originally the Dia Foundation was planning to build something there and when they didnt we approached the city about a possible site and kate and the commission of Cultural Affairs said this is a site that would be available to us and we were thrilled because its very hard to find horizontal property in manhattan, just not much space and especially at a favorable price. I was thinking about what renzo said is that we love the kind of wild character of the neighborhood, i mean the kind of roughness of it, a word we use which renzo hadnt heard at the time was feral. We wanted something with a wildness to it. Its such a refined building, but the roughness to have the floors and the concrete, its not just all about finesse or elegance, its about something a little bit rougher and wilder and connected. Rose how would you describe the look of the outside . Its wild, maybe. Rose you would . A bit wild. You make a building that is the heart of american art, its about freedom. It is about these things about freedom and part of purpose. So when you make a building like this, you must express that idea. You must express that kind of brave attitude to the city and also this building is designed actually to point to the city on the one side, on the east. Its broken down. Its enjoying time. Meandering on the space. Loitering, taking your time. But on the other side, it talks to the rest of the world. On the other side on the west it talks to the traffic on the highway, and then new jersey and then the far west. And if you look careful, you can see rose you can see across america. laughter you see the rest of the world. So this is also part of the idea. Rose in your mind did it have anything to do with the building on 76th . Many, many things coming from that building. First, the flexibility of the space. Secondly, when you open the door of the elevator, you find yourself in the gallery. Thats another important thing. You know, its a plates to be in connection with the city. He got madison avenue and he got the beach. But we have a space there. Actually, we build the space by making the building flying above ground. Thats what the building does. It comes up. When you make a building like this for culture, you have to be accessible, easy to reach. And this was impossible with the broiier building. I could go on forever. And mr. Broyer was brave. Rose didnt you try to extend the building . Several times. There wasnt enough room. Rose you struggled with the idea because ideally you would like to try to keep the humid october on the one side. I realized most museum have a frontal brand image thats the front of the met and the front of the guggenheim, the front of broier. This is a 360degree building. Residenceo composed it from all sides. A lot of critics have a hard time because they dont know what is the image of the whitney, and its the multiplicity, the wildness designed from the inside out rather than outside . Rose Michael Kimmelman in the New York Times says the location confirms a definitive shift in the citys social geography. Right. Rose part of the city in its social context has moved. Absolutely. And a big part of that is the high line. Over five Million People a year on the high line. Until the whitney, a wonderful walk without an anchor on either end. It looked like a place without destination. And a culture on the north end and the whole development of the west side. It was so empty, the Lower West Side in many ways in terms of just public traffic. Rose Christopher Wright said in two short generations the whitney has gone from being a stern but caring homeless shelter to its chic and eager tourist test nations. Well, i think were very rose youre happy with tourists coming there. We love tourists coming there, the more the merrier. But the whitney championed the artists of our time. Ms. Whitney was an artist herself and her mission was to support the artists of the generation. Rose wasnt her dream to do this and was turned down by other museum . In effect, she offered to give her entire collection to the metropolitan museum and they said we have enough of that not very interesting stuff in the basement, and it was actually out of a curious refusal, in fact, the whitney was born. She actually was as interested in the artists as she was in creating some kind of museum. Rose she said ill create my own museum. Exactly and it was out of a desire not just to show off what she had. Rose you said you were forced to consider the symbolic value it would be. Part of your driving mission in your own head was to consider the similar polk value. Yeah. Yes, of course. Rose a place for american artists. Is that what it was . Its hard to say, but i think its a sense of freedom. You dont design a building by watching. You do a building trying to tell the truth and the truth of the building is it is ours forever, a great collection of art that is an expression of freedom and thats, again, something that for me makes a lot of sense. What you get is something that you know, you dont immediately appreciate. Its like the forest, the mountains, like cities, its something that stays there forever and, you know, sometimes based on time. This thing of the tourists, i know very well the story because 40 years ago, i decide my friend, everyone said this is not for art its for tourists because this is a typical reaction saying art is for everybody. Art is seeking a special life in the eyes of everybody. So we have to make a place for everybody. Rose just to suggest what you obviously know, both of you know that art and museums are one of the powerful magnet for tourists who visit cities. Absolutely. But for us, it is about changing lives. I mean, not just the lives of the artists working there, but exposing to people to the art of this moment. I mean, people look back at history and they can accept that they love edward hopper, jasper johns now, but how about the artists of this generation . The josh kleins, the Mark Bradfords and the rachel harrissons . They come in and are so puzzled because were so close to it in time its hard to grapple with it and part of our job is to challenge as much as to celebrate and to test ideas, to put things out there and not just reconfirm what we already know. Rose lets talk about the relationship between a museum this museum and the the city. We mentioned the high line. You said it was important to let the city and let the street encroach. I mean i think thats the reason why i called that place not the lobby but the piazza. Im italian. And in the city everything starts from the piazza. You experience things here, they come together. This is where people meet people. They got together. Its about not being intimidating. Its about being accessible. So this is the beginning, and then, of course, from there then you go up and you take your shoes off, and you go up and you enter a different world. But the ground floor is public space. And we have a free gallery in the public space and the idea is to make whatever art in the lobby completely free and open to the public because its all our Cultural Heritage and, you know, culture is right, newt privilege. Its something that probably not very visible, that ewere having at many, many functions that were not possible in the old building. We have an education space but we have an indoor outdoor black blocks space basically its a theater where you can be inside looking out or outside looking in. We have 14000 square feet of outdoor galleries on four levels, so the art can be seen from above, below, its set up so per forms can be done out there, that you can have sculpture out there, installation, projections. So the idea is that the building and the big black box. But the idea is that the building is material for the artist, not just a site for the artwork. Renzo called the big outdoor gallery the testing platform. Because, of course, we have been working a lot with artists. The building was loved by artists because it was simple nonpretentious and uncompeting. Artists love that. We always talk with artists about testing floors, like in the backyard of the factories. Rose youve spoken of this idea before which is dont create architecture that competes with the art. Architecture, i believe architecture is art, not just function. Rose its not just function. It is about function, it is about society but is, of course art, but is a different kind of art. It is the art of the arts. It is the art of making place for other arts. When you make a concert hall you dont make the concert, but you make a state that is a chamber for sound, for music. Thats the same thing we do. Its not actually like diminishing, making more modest all of the architecture, its actually even stronger. I agree. That was one of the reasons we most wanted to work with renzo is because we felt that he put the art first, that it wasnt a competition, it was about supporting it and actually supporting it actually makes both the architecture and the art greater. Rose i am intrigued about this idea which youve talked about, a building like this cannot be indifferent to the city it rests in. And it cannot be indifferent to people. Rose to people. To people. You know why . Its very simple. As an architect, you find the right moment, the right place. You dont change the world, but you celebrate the change of the world. The world as it shifts something happens. A long time ago, making a big shift. In berlin, the war went down. You dont change the world somebody else changes the world. Youre there. You materialize the change. This building is materializing the change, the shift. And because change are not easy to digest, of course, it doesnt please everybody. Thats all. But you dont do this different because you want to be different. You do different because it is different. Thats all. Rose what did you mean when you said this building expresses sort of a Poetic Movement . Because i always thought that the building is four dimensions and the number four is people. Thats the reason why in paris we designed a building called infinity, but the movement of people going up, enjoying the piazza, watching down from the piazza the building is kind of a spectacular in movement. Rose that building put you and richard on the map, didnt it . Yeah, of course. We never got the new job for it. But movement is part of architecture. And this building, as soon as you get in the ground floor, you see three big elevators. You see a big, big elevator. Then you see everything from the view is moving. Rose was adam helpful or not or just get in your way. Of course, it was great. Were good accomplices. Were good accomplices, exactly. Rose the conspiracy of something great. But you would meet once a week wouldnt you, whenever he was there . Well, we met every time he was in new york. Rose more than once. Exactly. We met about every eight weeks. But, for example, in talking about the movement, charlie when renzo and we decided we wanted the elevators front and center which was an echo of the beyeler building, we were turning it to the movement richard love. He didnt really know richards work and environment. He push the button, the art comes to you laughter rose so what new elements are you most excited about . Well, we have our fifth floor special exhibition gallery is an 18,000 square foot columnfree gallery which is enormous probably the largest columnfree gallery in new york, which means we can make exhibitions to the sides you want. Instead of saying we have a certain size and you have to fit it in. We can do big and small shows. Rose sculpture. Sculpture of great scale. The outdoor spaces are truly extraordinary and i think what we really love is when you were in the broirier building you could have been in london or rome. When youre in the building you know youre in. No the whitneys always been new yorks museum. Its very new york based. This was really the home for new york artists and american art, and weve always had a very international presence, but it was, as you said, based in Greenwich Village and the connectiono the artist whether hopper or calder or sloan, this was really a place to champion their work, not just the picassos and rose it was put together by a new york family. Collectors which ms. Whitney was an artist. And this idea that the building comes back home is a great point. Rose you brought this bui