Transcripts For KQED Charlie Rose 20151027 : vimarsana.com

Rose additional funding provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose senator Bernie Sanders is here. He is, as you know, democratic candidate for nomination for president. He is known for his advocacy for greater economic equality for all americans. He refers to himself as a democratic socialist. Former secretary of state Hillary Clinton leads him in the polls but sanders continue to draw huge clouds. He and secretary clinton spoke at the Jefferson Jackson dinner saturday in iowa. Now, today, some are trying to rewrite history by saying they voted for one antidwai law to stop something worse. Thats not the case. And let me be clear about the current trade deal that we are debating in congress, the transpacific partnership. That agreement is not now nor has it ever been the Gold Standard of trade agreement. It gives me no joy to tell you that much of what i predicted about iraq turns out to be right. Doesnt give me any joy at all. But that was a tough vote. I came to that fork in the road, and i took the right road, even though it was not popular at that time. I will not abandon any segment of American Society whether youre gay or black or latino, poor working class just because it is politically expedient at a given time. Rose one line of attack against secretary clinton is she has come late to some of the policies he has long supported. I am glad to welcome senator sanders to this table. That was clearly a portrait of senator clinton even in choices of words she has used. I have never Hillary Clinton for 25 years, i have enormous respect for her, shes a friend. But when youre running for president of the United States, its important to differentiate the differences in candidates and there are real dweerches Hillary Clinton and myself. I have been extremely consistent on my views for many, many years. T. P. P. , the transpacific partnership, some people like it, some dont. Rose she described it as the Gold Standard. She did, and im glad, years after i came out against it, she said, well, no, i think its a bad idea. In terms of the Keystone Pipeline, you know, i am extremely worried along with all the scientists who have studied this issue that Climate Change is already causing devastating problems and its only going to get worse unless we are bold in transforming our energy system. Well, if youre going to be bold about transforming your energy system, you know what . You dont give one seconds thought to supporting the Keystone Pipeline which is excavating and transporting some of the dirtiest fossil fuel on earth. You dont give a second thought. I opposed that from the very beginning. Reporter she . Im glad she finally came around and now shes in opposition to the Keystone Pipeline in. Terms of wall street in terms of wall street, youre looking at a guy who helpe wall stred us what a good idea it was if firms merged. Pelley never believed it. I believe we need to break up the large Financial Institutions. Im glad over a period of time Hillary Clinton has come out with ideas about how the deal with wall street but they dont go as far as they should. When you have banks with such economic and political power, where the six largest Financial Institutions control 60 of gdp, in my view, you have to break them up. Rose anything else she ought to change on you think that she hasnt changed on yet . This is what its about, not just this or that issue i guess she recently came out a month or two months ago, i came out against private corporations running prisons. I understand now shes come out against that as well. The issue is to understand what are the most important problems theying our country, and they are huge, and to me it comes down to the fact that its not just income and wealth inequality, it is not only corporate control over the media, it is not only the fact that we have more people in jail than any other country on earth, it is not only that we have a Campaign Finance system which is corrupt. The real issue is who is going to stand up to all of that. Who is going to take on the corporate interests and wall street and try to create a government that works for all the people in this country rather than a small number of billionaires . Thats the issue. If people think Hillary Clinton is that candidate, go for it. Rose they should vote for her. They should vote fer her. Rose if they think she should stand up for the establishment interests, they should vote for her. Absolutely. Rose if they think you would stand taller i dont think its about standing taller. You look at my lifes work and what my agenda is today. There is one candidate in this race who is in fact prepared to stand up to the billionaire class, to wall street, Corporate America, the big money interests who have run a rigged economy and a corrupt Campaign Finance system. Now, if people are satisfied with the establishment poll the ticks, youve got a candidate. If you want real change, im the candidate. Rose everybody is somehow attracted to the idea or wants to debate the idea of you as a democratic socialist. So you tell us, as ive asked you in another interview, what do you mean or does it mean you are more liberal and progressive than other democrats who have been in the litticle race or are in the political race now . Good question. Let me answer it in a couple of ways. First of all, demystify the word socialist. You know what . Weve got a strong socialist Senior Program called Social Security. Hows that . Covers has gone a long way to lowering poverty among seniors since roosevelt introduced it, and we got well over 50 Million People who are on Social Security. Lyndon johnson introduced a very strong socialist type program in the 60s called medicare. We have a Beautiful National park system owned by the people of the United States. We have a Postal Service owned by the people. Go to your local library, call up the fire department, it is owned by the people. So we have many socialist programs in the United States. Rose socialist is defined as government ownership . Well, the government owns and the people control all those institutions. Government is Social Security is a government program, medicare is a government program, v. A. Is a government program. Rose and not money raised by taxpayers for entitlement programs. I wouldnt use the word entitlement rose thats what they call them you know that. Second of all, i know there are a number overcountries around the world that we can learn from who do a lot better job protecting the needs of their working people than we do. If you look at countries in scandinavia, for example, whether its denmark, norway, sweden, what do they have . First of all, they guarantee healthcare to all of their people as a right. In fact, every other major country on earth guarantees healthcare to all people a and more cost effectively. A medicare for all youve got a medicare program, lets expand it to everybody. Second point, in terms of issues like childhood poverty, shamefully, we have one of the highest rates of childhood poverty of any major country on earth. Democratic socialist governments have a much lower rate of childhood poverty. They have much better childcare systems. Many countries around the world are doing what we should the b doing right now is understanding that a College Degree is equivalent to a high school degree. We should have free tuition at public colleges and universities. So those and many other ideas, income and wealth inequality, many countries around the world say, you know what . You cant continue to give huge tax breaks for the rich and have the massive level of rose those who want to make a massive attack on you in terms of columnists and others would say it is freedom, capitalism, and Democratic Capitalism that has enaibled america to prosper. Would you disagree with that . Sure. Rose you would . Of course. Rose we would have been better off if we didnt have Democratic Capitalism . Well, heres the point capitalism plays a very important role. Rose and capitalism flourishes in a lot of countries that call themselves democratic socialists. Exactly. Sweden and denmark have a very strong market economy. What is the difference between what they and we are doing . When you are talking about prospering, the word you used, in america, let me break the bad news to you, most people in america has not been prospering. For 40 years, the middle class has been disappearing. Almost all income and wealth are going to the top 1 . People on top are doing phenomenally well. Most others are not. Rose which brirs us to an interesting point ill come back to your history and how you came came to believe in what you believe in, but going to the sense of how and why you would create more income equality. We talk about income inequality and whats happened to the middle class, a lot of people who dont call themselves democratic socialists talk about that all the time. Joe biden is one of them. Joe is a good friend of mine. Rose im sure he is, but thats what he talks about. Well, we have a program and were running on an agenda to deal with the issue of more equality, okay . And let me real unemployment as opposed to official unemployment today, including those who have given up looking for work and working parttime is 10 . Rose the numbers of unemployment is given around 5 . But if you include those who have given up looking for worth is 10 . Africanamerican youth unemployment for High School Graduates is 51 unemployed and underemployed is that and i would assume thats unacceptable to every american. Good. We have ideas to address it. And we end up having more people in jail than any other country. So we have some ideas, and the ideas that maybe we should invest in jobs and education for our young people rather than in jails and incarceration. Keep an eye on kids so theyre not dropping out of school. Bring forth real criminal justice. But when we talk about the economy, this is what weve got to do we need to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure roads, bridges, rails, airports, levies, dams, Water Systems create up to 13 million decent paying jobs rose but that doesnt require you to be a socialist to recommend that. People like Larry Summers recommend that. Felix in this city talks about we have to think in terms of building the infrastructure and that was part of the Stimulus Program. Didnt go far enough but was it part of the Stimulus Program or not . There was money that went into infrastructure but nowhere near rose but nobody said that was socialist. Let me tell you and you can determine what we mean by it rose im the first person trying to argue away from the idea that youre a socialist. If the argument is i think the government should take over every mom and pop grocery store, thats not my view. But do i believe everybody is entitled to healthcare, yes. Rose but you dont believe that the state should control your life. The state should not control your life in terms of that the state ought to be the arbiter of everything. Of course not. Rose there are those, when they see the word i understand. Rose Bernie Sanders, ve a middle class thatsyoule declining, we have to create millions of jobs rebuilding our infrastructure, we need to make public colleges and universities tuitionfree, we need to praisee the minimumwage to 15 an hour,. Rose theyve done that in some cities. Thats right. We need pay equity for women workers. We need to bring about bold general Justice Reform in this country. We need to create jobs by moving aggressively maybe im not radical enough. Rose no, but a lot of people believe what you do about those kinds of issues, they believe there are too many people in jail, too many people coming out and not having a place to go, back in jail. Thats right. Rose there are a lot of people who believe the First Step Towards eliminating income inequality is a 15 minimumwage and thats been enacted in certain cities already. These are not radical ideas. No, theyre not. I was just talking to a guy today and he said, you know, i went to the City University of new york 50 years ago and you know what i paid for tuition . He said 58 a term. Rose right. So the idea of making public colleges and universities tuition free when it exists in germany and many other countries and used to exist in the United States is not a radical idea. But in the context of Politics Today it is a fairly radical idea. Ill give you another example of where weve got to go. Rose all right. We have a Campaign Finance system as a result of the Supreme Court decision of Citizens United is corrupt. Its a corrupt system and essentially allows billionaires to buy elections. I believe we should not only overturn Citizens United and no nominee of mine to the Supreme Court will get such a selection unless they are clear. Rose do you believe Hillary Clinton believes in Citizens United . Thats my point. Rose okay. And i believe we need to not only overturn Citizens United, we need to move to public funding of elections so working class people around this country who want to participate in the political process do not have to beg wealthy people for money. That would revolutionize this country and the politics of this country. Rose you have been doing pretty quickly well at fundraising, by the way. Very well. V differently than almost anybody else. Rose let me talk a little bit about you. In terms of growing up and the influences on your life. You grew up in a jewish family. It is said you grew up with some sense of its been said in your upbringing there was tension about money. Yes. Rose how did that shape you . A lot. I grew up in a three and a half room apartment in brooklyn, a rentcontrolled apartment. My dad worked, we were never poor, but the truth is we never had a whole lot of money. My mothers dream had been to own a home of her own, get out of the apartment, and she never achieved that. She died young. She never achieved that dream. So buying anything, buying a jacket became a beige production. How much money should you spend for the jacket, right . We could get it cheaper over here, so money became an issue of tension in our household and thats a lesson ive never forgotten. All over the country people are wondering how theyre going to keep the lights on and put gas in the car to get to work. Rose or saying to the kids you cant eat today. Thats right. 47 Million People in this country are living in poverty and we have people working hard and cant afford to feed their families. So my upbringing gave me a lesson i have not forgotten and it certainly has greatly impact it. Rose what was it about gene that made you admire him . A great man, an organizer. But if you looked at his vision of what he wanted to do, wanted to create a world and a nation in which all people had opportunity, and when he, of course, was working, you had people in the mines, people in the factories working under horrendous conditions, and he organized them and split up and said what we have to say today in many respects, we are not going to bring about the real change wes need unless we are prepared to stand up to the wealthy. Charlie, this is not talked about often. We are the wittiest country in the history of the world today. Why do we have 47 Million People living in poverty . Rose tell me. Because you have enormous greed in this country. You have a ruling class in this country who wants it all. You have people you have people on top like the Koch Brothers who are so wealthy and theyre spending millions of dollars to try to destroy Social Security, medicare, medicaid, more tax breaks for the rich. You ever an incredible level of greed than weve seen in the last 30, 40 years, a savage attack on the working and middle class of this country. The result is the rich get richer and almost everybody else gets poorer. Rose what is the savage attack . Opposition to trade union movement, opposition to any increase in the minimumwage, a series of trade policies which in fact resulted in the loss of tens of thousands of factories in this country so that we now have walmart as the largest private sector employer rather than General Motors who paid workers a decent wage. A Campaign Finance rose you remember what henry ford did, he paid them decent wage. Thats right. A Campaign Finance is not content with Information Services<\/a> worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications<\/a> from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose senator Bernie Sanders<\/a> is here. He is, as you know, democratic candidate for nomination for president. He is known for his advocacy for greater economic equality for all americans. He refers to himself as a democratic socialist. Former secretary of state Hillary Clinton<\/a> leads him in the polls but sanders continue to draw huge clouds. He and secretary clinton spoke at the Jefferson Jackson<\/a> dinner saturday in iowa. Now, today, some are trying to rewrite history by saying they voted for one antidwai law to stop something worse. Thats not the case. And let me be clear about the current trade deal that we are debating in congress, the transpacific partnership. That agreement is not now nor has it ever been the Gold Standard<\/a> of trade agreement. It gives me no joy to tell you that much of what i predicted about iraq turns out to be right. Doesnt give me any joy at all. But that was a tough vote. I came to that fork in the road, and i took the right road, even though it was not popular at that time. I will not abandon any segment of American Society<\/a> whether youre gay or black or latino, poor working class just because it is politically expedient at a given time. Rose one line of attack against secretary clinton is she has come late to some of the policies he has long supported. I am glad to welcome senator sanders to this table. That was clearly a portrait of senator clinton even in choices of words she has used. I have never Hillary Clinton<\/a> for 25 years, i have enormous respect for her, shes a friend. But when youre running for president of the United States<\/a>, its important to differentiate the differences in candidates and there are real dweerches Hillary Clinton<\/a> and myself. I have been extremely consistent on my views for many, many years. T. P. P. , the transpacific partnership, some people like it, some dont. Rose she described it as the Gold Standard<\/a>. She did, and im glad, years after i came out against it, she said, well, no, i think its a bad idea. In terms of the Keystone Pipeline<\/a>, you know, i am extremely worried along with all the scientists who have studied this issue that Climate Change<\/a> is already causing devastating problems and its only going to get worse unless we are bold in transforming our energy system. Well, if youre going to be bold about transforming your energy system, you know what . You dont give one seconds thought to supporting the Keystone Pipeline<\/a> which is excavating and transporting some of the dirtiest fossil fuel on earth. You dont give a second thought. I opposed that from the very beginning. Reporter she . Im glad she finally came around and now shes in opposition to the Keystone Pipeline<\/a> in. Terms of wall street in terms of wall street, youre looking at a guy who helpe wall stred us what a good idea it was if firms merged. Pelley never believed it. I believe we need to break up the large Financial Institutions<\/a>. Im glad over a period of time Hillary Clinton<\/a> has come out with ideas about how the deal with wall street but they dont go as far as they should. When you have banks with such economic and political power, where the six largest Financial Institutions<\/a> control 60 of gdp, in my view, you have to break them up. Rose anything else she ought to change on you think that she hasnt changed on yet . This is what its about, not just this or that issue i guess she recently came out a month or two months ago, i came out against private corporations running prisons. I understand now shes come out against that as well. The issue is to understand what are the most important problems theying our country, and they are huge, and to me it comes down to the fact that its not just income and wealth inequality, it is not only corporate control over the media, it is not only the fact that we have more people in jail than any other country on earth, it is not only that we have a Campaign Finance<\/a> system which is corrupt. The real issue is who is going to stand up to all of that. Who is going to take on the corporate interests and wall street and try to create a government that works for all the people in this country rather than a small number of billionaires . Thats the issue. If people think Hillary Clinton<\/a> is that candidate, go for it. Rose they should vote for her. They should vote fer her. Rose if they think she should stand up for the establishment interests, they should vote for her. Absolutely. Rose if they think you would stand taller i dont think its about standing taller. You look at my lifes work and what my agenda is today. There is one candidate in this race who is in fact prepared to stand up to the billionaire class, to wall street, Corporate America<\/a>, the big money interests who have run a rigged economy and a corrupt Campaign Finance<\/a> system. Now, if people are satisfied with the establishment poll the ticks, youve got a candidate. If you want real change, im the candidate. Rose everybody is somehow attracted to the idea or wants to debate the idea of you as a democratic socialist. So you tell us, as ive asked you in another interview, what do you mean or does it mean you are more liberal and progressive than other democrats who have been in the litticle race or are in the political race now . Good question. Let me answer it in a couple of ways. First of all, demystify the word socialist. You know what . Weve got a strong socialist Senior Program<\/a> called Social Security<\/a>. Hows that . Covers has gone a long way to lowering poverty among seniors since roosevelt introduced it, and we got well over 50 Million People<\/a> who are on Social Security<\/a>. Lyndon johnson introduced a very strong socialist type program in the 60s called medicare. We have a Beautiful National<\/a> park system owned by the people of the United States<\/a>. We have a Postal Service<\/a> owned by the people. Go to your local library, call up the fire department, it is owned by the people. So we have many socialist programs in the United States<\/a>. Rose socialist is defined as government ownership . Well, the government owns and the people control all those institutions. Government is Social Security<\/a> is a government program, medicare is a government program, v. A. Is a government program. Rose and not money raised by taxpayers for entitlement programs. I wouldnt use the word entitlement rose thats what they call them you know that. Second of all, i know there are a number overcountries around the world that we can learn from who do a lot better job protecting the needs of their working people than we do. If you look at countries in scandinavia, for example, whether its denmark, norway, sweden, what do they have . First of all, they guarantee healthcare to all of their people as a right. In fact, every other major country on earth guarantees healthcare to all people a and more cost effectively. A medicare for all youve got a medicare program, lets expand it to everybody. Second point, in terms of issues like childhood poverty, shamefully, we have one of the highest rates of childhood poverty of any major country on earth. Democratic socialist governments have a much lower rate of childhood poverty. They have much better childcare systems. Many countries around the world are doing what we should the b doing right now is understanding that a College Degree<\/a> is equivalent to a high school degree. We should have free tuition at public colleges and universities. So those and many other ideas, income and wealth inequality, many countries around the world say, you know what . You cant continue to give huge tax breaks for the rich and have the massive level of rose those who want to make a massive attack on you in terms of columnists and others would say it is freedom, capitalism, and Democratic Capitalism<\/a> that has enaibled america to prosper. Would you disagree with that . Sure. Rose you would . Of course. Rose we would have been better off if we didnt have Democratic Capitalism<\/a> . Well, heres the point capitalism plays a very important role. Rose and capitalism flourishes in a lot of countries that call themselves democratic socialists. Exactly. Sweden and denmark have a very strong market economy. What is the difference between what they and we are doing . When you are talking about prospering, the word you used, in america, let me break the bad news to you, most people in america has not been prospering. For 40 years, the middle class has been disappearing. Almost all income and wealth are going to the top 1 . People on top are doing phenomenally well. Most others are not. Rose which brirs us to an interesting point ill come back to your history and how you came came to believe in what you believe in, but going to the sense of how and why you would create more income equality. We talk about income inequality and whats happened to the middle class, a lot of people who dont call themselves democratic socialists talk about that all the time. Joe biden is one of them. Joe is a good friend of mine. Rose im sure he is, but thats what he talks about. Well, we have a program and were running on an agenda to deal with the issue of more equality, okay . And let me real unemployment as opposed to official unemployment today, including those who have given up looking for work and working parttime is 10 . Rose the numbers of unemployment is given around 5 . But if you include those who have given up looking for worth is 10 . Africanamerican youth unemployment for High School Graduates<\/a> is 51 unemployed and underemployed is that and i would assume thats unacceptable to every american. Good. We have ideas to address it. And we end up having more people in jail than any other country. So we have some ideas, and the ideas that maybe we should invest in jobs and education for our young people rather than in jails and incarceration. Keep an eye on kids so theyre not dropping out of school. Bring forth real criminal justice. But when we talk about the economy, this is what weve got to do we need to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure roads, bridges, rails, airports, levies, dams, Water Systems<\/a> create up to 13 million decent paying jobs rose but that doesnt require you to be a socialist to recommend that. People like Larry Summers<\/a> recommend that. Felix in this city talks about we have to think in terms of building the infrastructure and that was part of the Stimulus Program<\/a>. Didnt go far enough but was it part of the Stimulus Program<\/a> or not . There was money that went into infrastructure but nowhere near rose but nobody said that was socialist. Let me tell you and you can determine what we mean by it rose im the first person trying to argue away from the idea that youre a socialist. If the argument is i think the government should take over every mom and pop grocery store, thats not my view. But do i believe everybody is entitled to healthcare, yes. Rose but you dont believe that the state should control your life. The state should not control your life in terms of that the state ought to be the arbiter of everything. Of course not. Rose there are those, when they see the word i understand. Rose Bernie Sanders<\/a>, ve a middle class thatsyoule declining, we have to create millions of jobs rebuilding our infrastructure, we need to make public colleges and universities tuitionfree, we need to praisee the minimumwage to 15 an hour,. Rose theyve done that in some cities. Thats right. We need pay equity for women workers. We need to bring about bold general Justice Reform<\/a> in this country. We need to create jobs by moving aggressively maybe im not radical enough. Rose no, but a lot of people believe what you do about those kinds of issues, they believe there are too many people in jail, too many people coming out and not having a place to go, back in jail. Thats right. Rose there are a lot of people who believe the First Step Towards<\/a> eliminating income inequality is a 15 minimumwage and thats been enacted in certain cities already. These are not radical ideas. No, theyre not. I was just talking to a guy today and he said, you know, i went to the City University<\/a> of new york 50 years ago and you know what i paid for tuition . He said 58 a term. Rose right. So the idea of making public colleges and universities tuition free when it exists in germany and many other countries and used to exist in the United States<\/a> is not a radical idea. But in the context of Politics Today<\/a> it is a fairly radical idea. Ill give you another example of where weve got to go. Rose all right. We have a Campaign Finance<\/a> system as a result of the Supreme Court<\/a> decision of Citizens United<\/a> is corrupt. Its a corrupt system and essentially allows billionaires to buy elections. I believe we should not only overturn Citizens United<\/a> and no nominee of mine to the Supreme Court<\/a> will get such a selection unless they are clear. Rose do you believe Hillary Clinton<\/a> believes in Citizens United<\/a> . Thats my point. Rose okay. And i believe we need to not only overturn Citizens United<\/a>, we need to move to public funding of elections so working class people around this country who want to participate in the political process do not have to beg wealthy people for money. That would revolutionize this country and the politics of this country. Rose you have been doing pretty quickly well at fundraising, by the way. Very well. V differently than almost anybody else. Rose let me talk a little bit about you. In terms of growing up and the influences on your life. You grew up in a jewish family. It is said you grew up with some sense of its been said in your upbringing there was tension about money. Yes. Rose how did that shape you . A lot. I grew up in a three and a half room apartment in brooklyn, a rentcontrolled apartment. My dad worked, we were never poor, but the truth is we never had a whole lot of money. My mothers dream had been to own a home of her own, get out of the apartment, and she never achieved that. She died young. She never achieved that dream. So buying anything, buying a jacket became a beige production. How much money should you spend for the jacket, right . We could get it cheaper over here, so money became an issue of tension in our household and thats a lesson ive never forgotten. All over the country people are wondering how theyre going to keep the lights on and put gas in the car to get to work. Rose or saying to the kids you cant eat today. Thats right. 47 Million People<\/a> in this country are living in poverty and we have people working hard and cant afford to feed their families. So my upbringing gave me a lesson i have not forgotten and it certainly has greatly impact it. Rose what was it about gene that made you admire him . A great man, an organizer. But if you looked at his vision of what he wanted to do, wanted to create a world and a nation in which all people had opportunity, and when he, of course, was working, you had people in the mines, people in the factories working under horrendous conditions, and he organized them and split up and said what we have to say today in many respects, we are not going to bring about the real change wes need unless we are prepared to stand up to the wealthy. Charlie, this is not talked about often. We are the wittiest country in the history of the world today. Why do we have 47 Million People<\/a> living in poverty . Rose tell me. Because you have enormous greed in this country. You have a ruling class in this country who wants it all. You have people you have people on top like the Koch Brothers<\/a> who are so wealthy and theyre spending millions of dollars to try to destroy Social Security<\/a>, medicare, medicaid, more tax breaks for the rich. You ever an incredible level of greed than weve seen in the last 30, 40 years, a savage attack on the working and middle class of this country. The result is the rich get richer and almost everybody else gets poorer. Rose what is the savage attack . Opposition to trade union movement, opposition to any increase in the minimumwage, a series of trade policies which in fact resulted in the loss of tens of thousands of factories in this country so that we now have walmart as the largest private sector employer rather than General Motors<\/a> who paid workers a decent wage. A Campaign Finance<\/a> rose you remember what henry ford did, he paid them decent wage. Thats right. A Campaign Finance<\/a> is not content with Citizens United<\/a>. They want to move toward a system where there are no Campaign Regulations<\/a> so that the Koch Brothers<\/a> themselves can buy candidates you. Want to run for office . Heres 100 million, you work for me. All of those add up to a massive attack on working families in the middle class. Rose do you think all republican candidates are corruptible because they are willing to accept money from i know money has nothing to do with it. I know because ive heard, yes, were getting millions, doesnt influence me at all do you believe that . Of course not. Rose did bill clinton and barack obama take money from wealthy citizens . Yes, they did. Rose are they corrupt bid that . Im not saying theyre corrupted. Im saying the system is corrupt. We have a system in which why do you think i mean, why are people giving you rose i mean, everybody i mean, a lot of people want to change the way we finance campaigns. John mccain, your friend in the senate, wanted to Reform Campaign<\/a> spending. Yes, he did. We have to be honest, look, i think the reason we are doing so well in this campaign you know why, charlie . Rose why. Because were talking in a simple, straightforward way about the real issues that impact the American People<\/a>. The Campaign Finance<\/a> system is corrupt. You cant get away from it. Anyone who wants to dinie it or think that with billionaires, the Koch Brothers<\/a> and friends will spend 900 million on the campaign to elect extreme right wing candidates, thats corrupt. Rose some of the things youve had tone counterin this campaign, because you are the senator from vermont, and whats the africanamerican population in vermont . Its growing but were about 95 white. Rose 5 africanamerican or. Mostly africanamerican. Rose therefore, when you talk about too many africanamericans in jail and you talk about how we need to change the system, somehow, youve not connected. So my question is, have you and has it had to be something in this campaign that you realize you had to address . Well, let me say, you know, when you run a campaign taking on the economic establishment, the political establishment, Corporate Media<\/a> establishment, thats a tough fight. We started this campaign six months ago. You know what we were in the polls . 4 or 5 . My guess is 80 , 90 of the American People<\/a> didnt know who i was. Rose the next thing they knew is he calls himself a socialist. Well, hopefully they know other things as well. What is happening is were now running close in iowa and New Hampshire<\/a>. Rose are you ahead in New Hampshire<\/a> or not . Depending on the polls, yes. Rose and are you behind . A little behind. We are running strong in many states in the country. We have received more individual Campaign Contributions<\/a> than anybody in history up to this point, 750,000. We have brought out more people in this campaign to our meetings, over 300,000. So to answer your question, we are gaining momentum, putting together a strong grassroots movement. If your question is do we have a lot of work to do to reach out to the Africanamerican Community<\/a>, youre absolutely right, we do, and we are going to do that. I think, once the Africanamerican Community<\/a> knows my record on civil rights, nose the agenda we are bringing out, i think well do just fine with the Africanamerican Community<\/a>. Rose do you think secretary clinton wants to paint you as someone who is not very strong for gun control . Yeah, i think thats one of her arguments, yeah. I mean, thats pretty clear. Weve talked about that. Let me tell you a story. Want to hear a story . Rose sure. Okay. 1988, i was the candidate for the United States<\/a> congress. We had one seat in the state of vermont, three candidates running. The gun people supported democratic county and the republican candidate. Said anybody but bernie in 1988, do you want to know why . Rose why. Because in 1988 i said i think its wrong in the United States<\/a> for us to sell or distribute certain types of assault weapons. I probably lost the election by 3 points for that reason. I kept my word. I voted to ban certain assault weapons. I voted for instant background checks. I voted to do away with the gun shell loophole. I believe we have to deal with the strong man situation as it is right now and i would go further. But to suggest that my record on guns is not a strong one is inaccurate. The other point that ive made, in fact, this is a divided nation on guns. A recent poll came out, majority of americans dont believe we should do any more gun control despite the horrific murders that we have seen, the massacres that we have seen. I think i am in a strong position, coming from a state that has almost no gun control, but somebody was voted for strong gun legislation, i think im in a pretty good position to bring people together around a consensus that, in fact, can move us forward to ending some of these horrific massacres. Rose in a broader sense, do you believe america is an imperfect but exceptional country . Of course. My father came to this country at the age of 17 without a nickel in his pocket. Never made a whole lot of mone. Was able to send two of his kids to college and led a life he never would have in poland. That is the story of tens of millions of families in this country. Rose exceptionally more than europe, scandinavia every country has its thing. Weve done exceptional things. Rose its an exceptional place and thats the reason so many people want to come here. Of course were an exceptional place. Rose and do you, therefore, want to reform america or create a revolution in america . And i use that in terms of radical. Well, let me tell you something, i think what we want to do is build on our strengths, which are many, and we want to deal with our imperfections, which are also rose which are primarily economic, as i hear you, and primarily too many well, its not just rose its in part a 99and1 issue. Well, its not a small issue. Rose no. When you have almost all income wealth going to the top is , a political system thats corrupt, in the last election 63 of people not voting, more people in jail than any other country, we have Serious Problems<\/a> that have to be addressed. What i mean by a Political Revolution<\/a> is to say that no president of the United States<\/a>, not Bernie Sanders<\/a>, not Hillary Clinton<\/a> or anybody else is going to be able to take on the power of wall street and Corporate America<\/a> and the Corporate Media<\/a> by himself or herself. It aint gonna happen. Anyone who tells you, hey, vote for me and ill solve all the problems is not telling you the truth. The only way we bring about change is when millions come together in an organized way and say essentially enough is enough. Maybe the government of the United States<\/a> should represent us and not just the very, very wealthy which is currently case. Rose why did you decide to run . Because i have four kids and seven if you feel grandchildren. I know that in the United States<\/a> senate it is said every morning, people look in the mirror, brush their teeth and hundreds of people see a president. Honestly, i was not one of those people. Rose when did it happen . It happened you know, i got these seven beautiful grandchildren and i think about the enormous problems, some unprecedented. We havent talked about Climate Change<\/a> and the fact that if we dont get rose you mean in this conversation . Yeah, but, i mean, these are the problems were facing. Scientists tell us we may not have much of a planet by rose how would you evaluate what president obama has done to address Climate Change<\/a> . I think she has made very important decisions. I believe hes run up against right wing republican obstructionism every step to have the way. He takes it very seriously. Of course i want a Political Revolution<\/a>. I am not content when 63 of people and 80 of the young people dont vote. I want to create a vibrant democracy. Do you think we are today . I dont think we are. I think the only way we transform americans is when millions of people become active in the political process. Rose do you think we have choices . I think whats necessary to get them involved is to talk to them the way most politicians dont. Its not to say we want to do this and that, but we have to have the courage to talk about what many people dont want to talk about, taking on the billionaire class. Real change will not happen unless we do that and if we do not do that, in my view, the rich will continue to get richer and everybody else will continue to get poorer. Rose and a lot are democrats. Most of them rose well, i mean, i know well, some of them may well be. Rose well, a lot are democrats. I dont know that many wealthy people. They dont contribute to my campaign. Rose warren buffet is a wealthy man. He, is i think, a democrat, youre right. But in terms of the political process, you have right wing republicans like the Koch Brothers<\/a> and their friends dominating the money coming into the political process. You may not agree, but the problems we face ar are enormouf we are going to prevent this country from sliding into oligarchy, we need to bring people together. My campaign, is yes, i want to be the president of the United States<\/a>, but equally important is the need to create that movement of people who stand with me when you say to wall street rose did you run does a you a speculation tax. Rose did you run because of your own personal ambition or you didnt see anybody who was prepared to articulate the ideas and the values and the urgency you were prepared to do . Its not a question of what i think this country i think at this moment, charlie, to be very honest with you, it is too late for the establishment politics and establishment economics, the problems are too serious. And i do, i look around and i see very bright candidates Hillary Clinton<\/a>, a lot of experience and extraordinarily intelligent woman but i think we need to go beyond establishment politics. Rose she is, by your definition, an establishment politician. She thinks shes an establishment politician. Who doesnt think somebody who touts every day the support from another establishment figure i think you would consider to be an establishment politician. Rose do you have any establishment figures for your campaign . Not a whole lot. But some. Rose this is what you told felix salmon of fusion, if youre talking about an economy for the middle class and not just the top 1 , i think we have to rethink our current Financial System<\/a> and the way wall street functions. Yes. Rose we think. Yes. Right now, we bailed out wall street, whose greed, recklessness and illegal behavior brought us into the worst economic downturn since the great depression. They came crawling to congress rose people like ben bernanke and others have come to the table to say if we had not bailed them out the whole system would have collapsed and would you have preferred the system to collapse . Wrong question. What im saying is thats a fair question, let me get to it, but the first question is rose did they create the problem . They destroyed the economy and said, oh, please bail us out. Okay . Thats number one. Now may know i dont know how many of your listeners know three out of the four largest banks today are significantly bigger today than when we bailed them out. Significantly bigger. The six largest Financial Institutions<\/a> in this country have assets equivalent to the 60 of the gdp of america, issu3 twothirds of the credit cards and onethird of the mortgages. Rose would you break them up . Yes, we have to reestablish and break them up. Not Bernie Sanders<\/a>. If Teddy Roosevelt<\/a> were alive today and you had that concentration of wealth and political power, what do you think roosevelt would have said . He would have said break them up and we give more support to Community Banks<\/a> and credit unions. Rose where do you differ from secretary clinton on that issue . Does she want to break up wall street. No. Rose financial power . No. Rose she saws she does. She doesnt. Rose she says shes running against wall street. Every politician in the world is running against wall street. But in terms of glass steagall, no, she doesnt support rose there was an opportunity to reestablish glass steagall and didnt do it. Doddfrank dodd frank what . Rose when dodd frank was created they did not do it. Rose they had a chance. Democrats had a chance to do a lot of things they didnt do. But the point is i believe we should reestablish glass steagall, Elizabeth Warren<\/a> believes we should establish glass steagall. Rose Elizabeth Warren<\/a> and you, you see in her someone as closer to you in things you believe in than anyone else in the political spectrum in the Democratic Party<\/a> . Elizabeth and i work very closely together. Rose so the answer is yes . Elizabeth warren in the senate yes. Rose but also in terms of people in elected office or commanding positions elizabeth is doing a great job as u. S. Senator from massachusetts and a good ally on many issues. Rose will she support you . You will have to ask Elizabeth Warren<\/a>. Heres your point, i happen to think wall street they spent 5 billion over a period in lobbying and Campaign Contributions<\/a> to deregulate wall street in general and thats why i believe wall street regulates congress and you need a revolution to take them on because they have so much power is that if you took them on, you essentially would break them up . What else would you do to reduce the power of wall street . Campaign finance reform is one thing. Two, you would reestablish glass steagall. So there are two things. What else would you do to break them up . Help us understand breaking them up. Breaking them up is breaking them up by definition. Rose well, but then then what you do is you provide significant help and support for Community Banks<\/a> and for credit unions, institutions that are part of communities. Whats the major problem with wall street . Its not just their Business Model<\/a> is flawed that in my view is true but the problem is they live in a world unto themselves. Theyre not part overcommunities trying to create jobs. They are wall street are trying to make as much money as they can for themselves, an island unto themselves. Rose you see nothing the Financial Institutions<\/a> are doing . I think they have done horrific destruction to this country. Rose horrific destruction to the country. Yes. Rose in terms of what would happen in the financial recession of 2008 or in terms of yeah. What they did in their greed and reckless behavior, we find kids who smoke marijuana end up with a criminal record, and then people who destroy homes and lifes savings knee ben beer narption sai benbernanke saif the action taken against corporations and nod individuals. Im not surprised. You have criminal justice that makes sure some black guy driving a car may get a prison record because he forgot to make a left turn but the people who destroyed the economy dont end up in jail . I am not surprised. That is part of an Economic System<\/a> in which small numbers of people have incredible power. So the banks are not just too big to jail, the bankers are too big to jail. And this is a real problem. Rose but are they too big to fail . In my view, if theyre bigger today, of course we have got to break them up for that reason. 07, what do you think they aren right now when three of the four largest are even rose before you go, i want to talk about National Security<\/a>. How would you change National Security<\/a> policy in the United States<\/a> . You make a very clear point and made it at the Jackson Jefferson<\/a> dinner in iowa that you voted against the iraq war and you understood and want to point out what the consequences of that war have been. Yeah. Rose my question is what would you do and how would you change a u. S. Defense policy . Okay. It is a crazy world out there, and any one who sits in this chair and tells you you have a magical solution of how you deal with syria, afghanistan, iraq, syria, it is crazy situation out there. But these are the principles i would operate under. Number one, as the largest and most powerful military in the world, we want to use military force as a last resort not a first resort. What bush proposed in iraq was a disaster leading to all kinds of unintended consequences which we are dealing with today. Number two, instead of unilateral action, we have got to work in coalition as best we can with arab countries in the middle east, with western europe. We should not be going it alone. Rose do you think were going ate loan now . Im talking about now. Thats a principle part of what he tried to do. And it isnt easy. Rose youre sessionfully agreement with the approach to the middle east that president obama has articulated, to give us a reference . Yes, i think president obama in an incredibly complicated and difficult circumstances has tried to do a few things. Number one, he tried to see we do not continue to see young men and women in this country get killed. In vermont, we lost a lot of young men in iraq. Two, he has been trying to extricate our troops from combat and has succeeded. Three, she providing support in the countries to train whether the afghanistan or iraqi army and we need to do that. Rose he is going to leave more americans in afghanistan. Yes. Rose and some says because he recognized its a mistake not to leave more americans in iraq. I think what he tried to do is the right thick. It is complicated and difficult stuff because what you dont want to do and hes made this point over and over again is give weaponry to somebody to fight i. S. I. S. And you find out theyre fighting you. Rose or the weapons ended up in the hands of another group. Exactly. Rose would you you cut the Defense Budget<\/a> 30 and reestablish priorities and spend that on some of the social welfare priorities . I dont use the word social welfare. I dont think education or healthcare is social welfare. What i would do is, when we talk about every politician talks about waste and fraud. You know the one agency of the federal that has not been able to undertake an independent audit is the departmen departmet of defense. Rose what would you do about their budget . Thats a big question. Id do the audit and find out whether or not we need 5,000 nuclear weapons, whether we need military bases all over the world to defend countries who in some cases that are wealthier than we are. Rose south korea . Not going to say whether south korea or europe but we want to take a hard look at that. Almost every defense contractor brought forth Weapons Systems<\/a> with mass cost overruns, i would want to take a look at that as well. Rose did you vote for the f35. You dont vote for one weapons system. Rose what do you regret most about your service in the senate . Well, you know, i wish that i voted for the alaska Affordable Care<\/a> act. We provide highquality care to lowincome and working class families. I should have pushed hard tore get more money because we have a major healthcare crisis in this country. We need more doctors and nurses. I wish i had done more about that. Rose wall street journal had an article about you and when they looked at how much it would cost to what you want to do, it came to 18 trillion. Rose were they right . No. It was the wall street journal. Rose wall street journal in terms of reporting is different than not on the face, it wasnt. Let me tell you where they got it right and wrong. Of the 18 trillion that they talked about, 15 trillion were in healthcare. What they said is sanders is proposing a medicare Single Payer Program<\/a> thats going to cost approximately 15 trillion over a tenyear period. What did they forget to say in the article . That you would not be paying provide Health Insurance<\/a> at all. Yeah, might be paying more in taxings, but you and your employer would not pay any private Health Insurance<\/a>. Virtually every study done suggests a single pay system is far more effective than the system we have now dominated by private insurance companies. We save money by moving to single payer. They say i want to spend 1 trillion rebuilding the infrastructure. We pay for that by eliminating tax breaks where corporations stash their money in the cayman islands. We want to see colleges and universities free and pay for that by a tax on wall street speculation. They got it wrong through the healthcare issue. Rose would you reduce the Corporate Income<\/a> tax . No. Rose even if you could eliminate some of the deductions, would you reduce the rate . No. I dont want to say. But i will tell you that in 1952, corporations were paying over 30 of the taxes to the federal government. Today theyre paying around 10 . You have a number of major corporations who, in a given year, pay zero federal income tax. So i think rose because of all the deductions . All of the loopholes is what id call them. Rose fair enough. We have to eliminate the loopholes and thats what my legislation does. Rose biggest misconception about you . That im a grumpy guy. You can see im a very pleasant, happy fellow. Rose im the one who did a 60 minutes profile on larry david. Yes. Rose you liked that, the idea of what larry did and the notion of sort of being in the public arena now, as you are in a much more visible way, and from saturday night live and other programs, its kind of nice, isnt it . I think larry david i thought larry davids tv show was hysterically funny. Im not a great fan of tv, ive got to tell you, but it was i think he is very funny. Rose here it is. Next question how would you each differentiate yourself from the Obama Administration<\/a> . For me for me, im an outside, anderson. Im the only candidate up here whose not a billionaire. I dont have a super pac. I dont even have a backpack. I carry my stuff around loose in my arms like between classes i own one pair of underwear thats it some of these billionaires, they got three, four pairs and i dont have a dryer i have to put my clothes on the radiator who do you want as president , a washington insider or a guy who has one pair of clean underwear that he dries on a radiator . cheers and applause Bernie Sanders<\/a>. Com, check it out rose you love that. He is very good. Rose so youre elected president. First five things you want to do are first day in office, first 100 days. What were going to do is bring forth a series of very progressive legislation. By the way, if i am elected president , it will mean that there is a very significant increase in the voter turnout. It will mean that it is likely republicans will not be controlling the senate and maybe not even controlling the house. Thats what a large turnout will do. Turnouts, republicans lose, democrats win. What do we do . We bring forth a Progressive Agenda<\/a> of everything weve talked about in the campaign. Well raise the minimumwage to 15 an hour. Thats legislation that will go in. Rose tax. We will demand the wealthy and large corporations pay their fair share of tax sphoos from what to what . I cant give you a specific number. We will have a tax on wall street speculation which is on our web site. Well do away with the loophole that allows corporations to stash money taxfree in the cayman islands. Well have an aggressive state tax, republicans will want to repeal it. I will have a more aggressive personal income tax. We will have legislation that makes public colleges and universities tuition free. We will also deal very aggressively with Climate Change<\/a> and Campaign Finance<\/a>. So those are some of the areas id initially focus on. Rose when you whats the lesson youve learned in this campaign so far . The lesson ive learned is its hard to talk about the issues with media who see politics as a soap opera and entertainment. Rose this is a rare experience for you . Absolutely. To be on a show for 40 minutes to talk about real issues is very difficult. Media there are many exceptions, i dont want to make a blanket criticism but by and large, its the soap opera of what happens today. Did somebody Say Something<\/a> dumb, Chris Christie<\/a> got thrown off the quiet car in the am track the other day and marco rubio threw a foot ball and hit somebody these are not stories. The american middle class for 40 years has been disappearing. 29 million americans have no Health Insurance<\/a>. We have a go desk level of income and wealth inequality, a corrupt Campaign Finance<\/a> system and the worlds future is being endangered by a Climate Change<\/a> that a republican refuses to acknowledge. Think we should be talking about these issues . Rose should we also talk about what sit about the american Economic System<\/a> has created in silicon valley, the leaders in the world of technology which is a huge contributor to an economy of the future . Should we be talking about the level of entrepreneurship and what incentives there are for people to create jobs to build businesses and create jobs and what atmosphere should they be working in . Should we be talking about, you know, the idea of freedom and individual freedom. Lets talk about it. The answer is yes and lets talk about individual freedom. Youre looking at a United States<\/a> former congressme congred senator. I voted against the u. S. A. Patriot act because i was very concerned about the power we were giving the government and, in addition, Corporate America<\/a> to know every damn thing about your life. I dont feel comfortable every phone call you make is being tracked someplace, that there are corporations that know more about you than you think they know. We need Public Policy<\/a> to deal with the explosion of technology. The question, is there a lot about this country that is fantastic that the rest of the world is looking to us, technology, entrepreneurship . Of course we should be very, very proud of it. But we should also understand there is something wrong with 40 of africanamerican kids in america are living in poverty and almost all income and wealth is going to the people on the top rose but the challenge is im asking the challenge is how do we maximize what is great about america, the remarkable times since the founding of this country, what is remarkable about it and, at the same time, you know, what parts of it enable too many people to be in poverty, too many people to be in prison, too many people not to have medical care and too many people not to be able to see that their kids have a better opportunity than they had, you know, to buy into, to engage in the American Dream<\/a> . In other words, look, what a sensible proposition is, is you look at were doing a lot well. You look at what we are not doing well. And there is a lot we are not doing well and you try to figure out how we make it better. Rose thats not the debate taking place on the campaign trail so far. I dont think the media is particularly interested in that debate. What the media is more interested in is i use the word how much money did you raise and whats the latest poll and you slip on a banana peel, did you Say Something<\/a> stupid, thats kind of what the media is interested in. But youre right, this country does a lot that we should be very, very proud of and build on. But where i think maybe you and i see it a little bit differently, its not just different ideas out there, there is a power structure in america which is based on greed, and these guys have it. You know, its not like sitting down and saying, hey, guys, how do we create a better economy . I dont think that is their goal. They have enormous power. They have enormous wealth. They want more power. They want more wealth, and theyre willing to step on a lot of mostly clear working people to get there. Rose we do share this belief, that the idea that the middle class has been and i come from the middle class, you know has been threatened. No, not threatened. It has been virtually destroyed in the last 40 years. Rose in the last 40 years. 40 years goes back to 73, i think, was the point where we went down. You know, the question we have to ask ourselves, charlie, is a very simple question. There is been an explosion of technology, we all produce a lot more. This Television Studio<\/a> is a lot different than 30 years ago, yes . You can do incredible things. Why is it that with all of that increase in technology and productivity, most people in this country are working longer hours for lower wages . Im not interviewing you, youre interviewing me, but those are the kinds of questions. Is it moral . Look what pope francis is saying is it moral that so few have so much and so many have so little . Its a moral issue. Lets debate that issue. I dont think most people feel comfortable the top 10 own most than the 90 . Rose i think most of america would agree. Bernie sanders for the hour. Thank you for joining us. For more about this and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs. Org and charlierose. Com. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications<\/a> captioned by Media Access Group<\/a> at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org every single bite needed to be tasted. Wow. Its like a great big hug. My parents put chili powder in my baby food. Everywhere all over the table. 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