Side of the ledger, how do we save. Hes not looking at the revenues. Rose we conclude with jimmy walker the man who just won the pga golf tournament. I think once you know you can do something, then i think the gates can open. Its the same thing that happens at a golf tournament. When somebody thinks a golf course is tough, somebody puts a good number out there, then somebodys like oh, you can do that. And then you start to see more scores happen like that. I think thats the same way. I know when i won my first event more came very quickly right after that. Once you know you can do something then you know you c rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we begin this evening with politics in an interview this weekend, republican president ial nominee donald trump suggested the u. S. Should accept russias an exation of crimea if it would lead to a better relationship with moscow. The view runs counter to the Obama Administration which imposed economic sanctions against russia for an exing the ukraine territory two years ago. It is now believed that the russian government was responsible for the theft of research and emails of the Democratic National committee and hacking into other campaign computer systems. While the Obama Administration has stopped short of a formal accusation cia director john brennan said friday that quote interference in the u. S. Election process is a very very serious matter. Joining me now is david sanger. Hes the National Security correspondent for the New York Times and has been reporting on this story and other allied stories im pleased to have him here at the table. Welcome. Its good to be with you. Rose why, in terms of what the russians are doing. Well talk about that and then well talk about trumps interview about ukraine and other areas. Why would they do, you know, who did it and why did they do it is the first question. And then the third question is how do we retaliate. All fascinating issues. To some degree, this is a story that i think most of us didnt see coming in this election because strange as this election cycle has been, it didnt seem like likely that Vladimir Putin would, if all the evidence points in that direction, try to actively interfere with an american election. We do know that the russians in the past have used information campaigns in european elections and tried to interfere there. And to be fair, the United States is not been above in the history messing around this other countrys elections too. Rose and the regret they didnt support the people in the streets of tehran when they protested their election. In 2009 when president obama was concerned there was a backlash of the americans. Heres what we know. We know the dnc got hacked and we know that they lost large amounts of emails and other data including fund raising data, other databases. Rose embarrassing to them in terms of a campaign against bernie sanders. Thats right. What ultimately ruled in Debby Wasserman Schultz losing her position as head of the party. Thats whats known. If you follow the forensics inside the documents that not the comes that come by wiki leaks but before they did their dump. Someone called gucifer2, we dont believe this was an valid we believe this was probably a set up by the russian gru, the intelligence unit. Rose let me stop you know. I know theres some communication that they werent satisfied with the response to that. So they may have given documents to wiki leaks or someone else. Thats right. And we dont know the transmission. We dont understand how wikileaks got the documents or necessary me who gucifer2 really was. But if you look at some of the documents that got released and you go and you look into the metadata behind them, what do you find. Editing marks in surrilic time stamps doing the work in moscow. You find ip addresses, internet protocol addresses that are identical to ones used in previous hacks by the gru and another russian intelligence agency, the fsb when they attacked the German Parliament and there was an investigation in germany that revealed a number of these. So unless somebody is doing one of the worlds best deception campaigns, always possible, the forensic evidence would strongly suggest that this was done rose theres pretty much agreement on that in terms of all the intelligence sources you have and the Security Forces you have. More consistency on this than on any issue i have seen, charlie, since the north korean hack. Rose why did they do it. Well that gets to another layer of fascinating issues. Because the first hack into the dnc was in june of 2015. When nobody in russia and nobody around your table was predicting donald trump would emerge as the nominee. So then the question is, were they doing this because they were trying to collect things in general. Or were they specifically getting that Hillary Clinton was likely get the nomination. A pretty good call back in june of 2015. And they were looking for material on her. And here you get to an interesting theory of motive. But its just a theory. In 2011, when Hillary Clinton was still the secretary of state, there was a parliamentary election that put in place and solidified Vladimir Putins hold on the government in russia. There were lots of signs of fraud in that election. And she called it out as secretary as state as frequently as american officials do when theres a fraud length election. And putin believed she was encouraging people to come out and protest in the streets which some did. Put down very quickly. Rose putin hates nothing like chaos. Thats right. And nothing like open objection to his rule. So in his mind, it may well be that the United States started this. That we were mess in their election. And if we want to go do that, he can show a way to go do this as well. Now this is all theory, but its a theory that was laid out in public the other day by the director of National Intelligence in the appearance he did at the aspen security summit. Rose the point here its not in order to see donald trump elected because they hate and do not want to see Hillary Clinton elected, if they did it with that motive. If it was with that motive. Now there was a second hack of the dnc, we believe by the gru, the military intelligence group, that came in the spring of this year. And its that hack that tipped off the dnc, that something was going wrong and thats when they called in private investigators when the fbi came in and so forth. And it looks like its the documents seized then that were begin to go see now. Its not at all clear that these two russian intelligence agencies knew the other one was in the system because these guys dont communicate terribly well and in fact compete with each other a fair bit. Rose let me understand the difference. The fsb is sort of the inheriter to the kgb. And the gru is . Its the military intelligence unit. Rose and theres this side issue. There are people who say that if in fact they could do that to the dnc, they could do other hacking they might have done, why wouldnt they have hijacked Hillary Clintons server. Thats right. So weve asked this question endlessly with the fbi and the Public Comments that the head of the fbi gave to Congress Last month was this. He said we have no direct evidence that there was any foreign power in you are server. And he also said, if they were and they were highly sophisticated actors which the russians are, its not at all clear we would see the evidence. Rose they could hide it. They could well hide it. And the fsb did a pretty good job of hiding it for the period of time they were in. So does that tell you that they werent in the server . No. It tells you we dont have any way proving they were or they were not. Now, we havent seen any of those documents though or documents we havent seen published elsewhere show up. Rose thats an assumption. If they had them they would have released something to be damaging to her. You would think. But we dont know the totality. Rose unless we want to way where it might be more tanging at a more propitious time. Thats right or see the reaction to this. Rose so the u. S. , we hack. We hack. Rose we retaliate how . So, whats the difference between this hack and what we do. Rose right. And this is a really difficult problem for many in the Intelligence Community because they dont like the idea of classifying a, the theft of data from the dnc as a cyber attack or necessarily a great sin because an e siflt Organization Political organization in russia, in china, in europe would be considered to be a legitimate target for the nsa or the u. S. Cyber net. The difference is not that we steal stuff the difference is the russians once they did it or whoever in the end took this out, then distributed it and used it for a political purpose to ostensibly to manipulate if you believe that. The u. S. Has not come out yet and accused the russians of doing this. Their standard of evidence has got to be a lot higher than the standard of evidence that individual comes, Cyber Companies would v the president s going to have to make a decision to retaliate or not. You want to do that based on as close to a hundred percent certainty as you can get. Rose how much more certainty do they need before they retaliate. Thats a good question. What can they do that the private companies cant . Nsas job is to go put implants in Computer Networks around the world to be able to see whats happening. Think of them as the cyber equivalent of radar stations that we set up around the world. But of course to do that youve got to break into somebodys system, install an implant thats good enough that nobodys going to find it. Keep it going. Care and feeding of it each day, checking on it, make sure its in the right place. Youre watering it, youre treating it like its a bonsai. And in the end, the u. S. May or may not have evidence because of those implants of who ordered this or what happened to the data when it came back. They may see that all the rest of us dont know. Thats what happened in the sony case where the u. S. Was up inside north koreas system and knew that north korea had made the attack rose they could see. They could see. They dont know and they hent said yet whether thats the case. Rose if you dont want people to know what you have because you dont want them to stop doing whatever they do. It used to be the deal with cell phones. Remember how the cia got crazy because maybe of the times, you found osama bin ladens phone number. It was not in the new yorks times and i dont know if we would publish it. But we stopped using it and he stopped using cell phone. Rose it was the community got very upset about that. They did. The same thing is true in the implants and this was a big issue during the snowden revelations three summers ago. Because we had evidence of how they were up inside china. We published a lot of that because at that point the Intelligence Community was el telling us the chinese already had a full copy of the documents so who are we protecting. And we learned that while the United States warns everybody not to buy Chinese Telecom equipment from waway they were up inside waway. The question is not does everybody spy on each other, of course they do. The question is how do they use that material. And in this case if you believe the american officials, the offense is not doing the spying, the offense is using it to manipulate an election. Rose i see. So that really is going beyond the pale if you try to manipulate an election. But then if youre Vladimir Putin tell me how thats different from the secretary of state encouraging fraud and protest on the street. Rose one thing i want to make sure i understand too. It is the notion when a government does it for a private concerns, even if they are state owned, this was a big issue between the United States and the chinese. My impression was the chinese said okay we wont do that anymore. Thats right. Rose whether they do or dont thats what they said to satisfy the Obama Administration. Thats right. The rules the u. S. Set up and tried to negotiate a norm with the chinese, this does not work with the russians, has been stealing intellectual property is illegal in both countries if you were just come into your studio and stealing your scripts, okay. And so it should be, there should be a norm against that in the cyber realm as well. There is an effort by the u. S. To try to impose a norm which not many others have signed up to like with the chinese which says we also wont interfere with emergency services. And we also wont interfere with the Computer Emergency Response people who try to get you back online. And whats coming down the line is i think the u. S. Would like a rule that says you know, were all going to agree were not going to mess with each Others Nuclear codes because that could lead to such a huge problem back and forth. Rose such a huge risk. And such a huge risk. But youd only want that deal with the other Major Nuclear powers unclear how you handle it with everybody elses got nuclear weapons. Rose so Dianne Feinstein the representative in california the chairman of the Senate Intelligence committee or used to be. Former chairman. Rose minority member, has asked the f. B. I. To investigate and release whatever their determination is as to whether the russians did it or not. Thats right. She did this with adam shift, an intelligence member on the house side. Rose ranking house. Ranking house side. And i talked to representative shift some about in this this weekend. Heres a concern. There have been two very major hacks on the u. S. Government in which while Everybody Knows who is believed to have done them, the government has never stepped out and accused the countries. And the first was the theft of state Department Emails and whitehouse emails and an attack on the joint chiefs of staff that is widely believed inside the u. S. Intelligence community to have been the work of the same two russian intelligences agencies. Cru and the fsb. So you know what theyre to go at home. What theyre doing back in washington right now is theyre comparing the signatures on the dnc hack to the state Department Whitehouse and jcs side. Rose organized an approach to this. If the russian Cyber Community is anything, its highly highly organized. More organized and more subtle over the years than the chinese. The chinese did the opposite personnel management. Rose right, right. In both cases the u. S. Government made the decision not to go reveal what they knew in part maybe for diplomatic reasons and in part because they didnt want to have to reveal the intelligence about how they knew it. What you saw senator feinstein and representative shift do was say look, this is so important to the operation of our democracy, that if you have evidence here, you find a way to make it public. Rose the f. B. I. s not responding. And do you know what its not the f. B. I. s decision. Its the whitehouse because youre going to have a fight thats going to come up between i dont know this but i can predict it from past history between intelligence people who say we cant reveal our forces and methods and others who say mr. President if youre going to go out and awe excuse the russians of messing with the system you better be ready to back it up. Rose do you assume well retaliate. Assuming that the president is persuaded that this evidence is as good as we think it is from the private sector, its hard for me to imagine. I wrote a story about this, it was in the sunday times. Its hard for me to imagine that he couldnt do, he couldnt avoid doing something. Because as in the case of sony, this goes beyond just spy versus spy. Sony was important because he believed that the North Koreans were going after free speech and threatening theatregoers. This would be important because if you dont retaliate, the message you have sent is our electoral system can be manipulated from the outside. Rose theres also the political ramifications of all this in terms of not just trying to manipulate an election, but is this being done with the approval, knowledge, direction of Vladimir Putin, do we think this is actually putin ordering all this. Really hard to know. Because it could well be done by one of these intelligence agencies or by somebody a freelancer hired by them, in which they are trying to impress putin that theyre going out and evening the Playing Field here. It may not have been ordered, it may have been its so easy in cyber to have cutouts. In the old nuclear world, we knew that 20 or 30 people who could launch nuclear weapons. We knew who the russians were. Rose you knew where it was coming from. We knew who it was coming from. In the cyber world its easier to hire outsiders and have them do an attack that is from a different location which makes it all the more fascinating they were so sloppy in this case about leaving these pieces of evidence. Rose Richard Haass is coming in. We interviewed him. Whats your impression of what he knows about russia because its hard to know exactly what he said because he said so many things. I met him, i talked to him perhaps,