Trump, theyre suddenly quite optimistic about their senate a candidates. Rose we conclude this evening with jon bon jovi. His new album is called this house is not for sale. Three iterations of boy band conversations has come and gone. Rap has come and gone. Grunge music has come and gone and what i never did was jump on those bandwagons when they were becoming increasingly more popular. So as i grew and grew up, i would not try to rewrite you give up a bad name or living on thonthe prairie. I was 24. I had something to say. Or i was going to come and b. S. You. Rose rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose syrian president Bashar Alassad met with think tank people in damascus this week, insisted his countrys social fabric was better than before the civil war that began there more than five years ago and ruled out political changes until Government Forces had prevailed and declared he planned to remain president at least until his term ends in 2021. It is believed that at least 500,000 syrians have been killed and nearly half the countrys population have been driven from their homes during the war, so far. The new yorker magazines Dexter Filkins was among journalists who met with assad. He joins me and i am pleased to have him just back from damascus. Welcome. Thank you. Rose how did this happen . And exactly who was in the room and what were the ground rules . Well, the Syrian Government, president assad, i think because theyre feeling pretty good about themselves. Rose think they have a story to tell. And i think theyre feeling stronger than they have at anypoint. Rose because of the support of the russians and hezbollah and everybody else. Yes. They had a conference, some friends and family relations of his staged a conference in damascus, and, so, they invited a bunch of journalists and think tank people to come. From that, they just selected a couple of people to come and meet the president. So i didnt know that was going to happen until rose you went for the conference and you and ann bernard from the New York Times in a meeting with him. Yeah. Rose who else was in the meeting. Some think tank people. Rose six or eight maybe . Three or four. Rose oh, three or four . Yeah. We all got in a van and drove you go into a secure area, lots of checkpoints, lots of blast walls. Then suddenly were at his house. He was standing at the door. Rose he welcomed you to his house. Yeah. Rose before you talked about the conversation. Tell me whats happened on the ground. Whats the status on the ground as we speak . You mentioned at the top of the show what an utterly catastrophic war it is, a half million dead, the whole state is disintegrated, half the country is displaced from their homes, this massive refugee crisis threatening the european union. I mean, its the great catastrophe of our time, and i think that everyone thought most of the world and probably including assad himself that he was going to go around maybe 2012, 2013. But basically what youve seen since then is massive intervention first by the iranians, then by hezbollah, and then finally by the russians which i think, last year, has been very decisive. Rose did the iranians put people on the ground or support hezbollah. Theyve got people on the ground. Maybe not fighting but theyre directing the fighting. Rose princ prince armani is hes on the ground now. Theyve diciviles changed the situation on the ground so pretty close to 70 of the population in syria lives in areas controlled by the government now. Rose what part . Probably something close to threequarters of the people left in syria. So many people left. Rose whats happening in aleppo as we speak . The russians said they were going to have a cease fire now . Yeah. All of that is a prelude to what is middle eas what is a medit to the death. Aleppo is under siege by assads government. They have been bombing it relentlessly, bombing hospitals. Its horrible. Theyre completely cut off there. What is a few days cease fire by the russians, well give you a few days, anybody who wants to leave, get out, here are the corridors. After that, were doing in. Rose going to retake aleppo, all of it. Yeah, and i think we should stand back for a second and look at whats happening. I think the goal for assad and the russians is to capture all of aleppo, which before the war was the largest city in syria. You capture aleppo and essentially you have most of the population under government control. You have a long strip of cities going from aleppo to damascus, beirut to the mediterranean. I. S. I. S. Is being squeezed in the west and east, raqqa will fall and who becomes president of the United States will be faced with a feta come pli which is now we control most of the country. Rose we the government of syria have regained control our country, what the president of the United States inaugurated on january 20 will face. Yes. I think assad finds himself in a strong position. Frankly, thats why he had a bunch of journalists in. They havent had american journalists in syria for three years at least. Rose they havent let american journalists in three years . They havent been granting visas in for three years, two at least. Rose just to get into the country. Just into the governmentcontrolled parts of syria. They have been keeping everybody out. Rose i thought someone from cbs news had been there. Basically the only journalists have been going in from the northeast the kurdish part and a few people are braving the Turkish Border which is nuts. Its a dangerous place. Rose back to raqqa and mosul and whats happening. You know that area. I was there, too. Rose what did assad say. You said how do you feel about being called a war criminal . Yeah, i opened the consideration that way. You know, its kind of anticlimactic when you go to a meeting like this because youre expecting something more, and, i mean, i think its sort of the ikeman effect. You know, hes not he may be a monster but doesnt look like. It hes more like a clerk or a lawyer or banker. So its slightly unexpected. So, you know, we were sitting together in this small room. I asked him about being a war criminal. He said, i dont take it personally. You know, the west is against me. Ive become headland for them. This is how they paint the conflict in black and white so im the bad guy, the rebels are the good guy. He went on to say, he painted this world view, very different than anything you and i would recognize. I. S. I. S. Is a creature of the United States. The United States, turkey, saudi arabia are supporting i. S. I. S. So hes holding a line against i. S. I. S. Thats essentially rose what is his argument that makes i. S. I. S. A creation of the United States and saudi arabia and turkey and whoever else . Well, this is the story they tell themselves. But, you know, you have the United States, saudi arabia, turkey, it is true that they have been supporting rebel groups who are fighting assad, and the United States is not supporting i. S. I. S. I pointed out to american soldiers rose formally alnusra group, primarily . Well, maybe not primarily. There are so many groups fighting in syria. Rose some of the people we support are supporting them . The latter. We dont support all nusra but a lot of money and arms that have been pumped into syria have been gotten to them, so that essentially allows president assad and the Syrian Government to kind of say, look, the United States and all their allies are supporting the evil i. S. I. S. Rose do they say that because youre fighting me, therefore supporting them because my enemy is them. Yeah, basically. Rose which his enemy is rebel forces trying to overthrow him. They dont use the phrase civil war. There is not a civil war. There is no great grievance the Syrian People have against this government. This is a war driven by foreigners, by the west. Rose it is true, after the arab spring and after he got engaged in civil war, that is when al quaida and i. S. I. S. And everybody rushed over there because they thought they could take advantage of the situation, correct . Yes. The war now there is five and a half years long, so the war looked very different in 2012 than it does now. Well never know, but the argument for western intervention back then was always, look, lets support the moderate groups before the crazies get too strong, and i think that moment has passed. Rose that was the crucial moment that you believe yeah, if there was a window, it was early on, 2012, 2013. Rose when the president elected not to do more for the rebel groups. Yeah, if you remember there was that pretty critical moment where hillary clinton, secretary of state, petraeus. Rose bob gates. And gates all said lets arm the rebels and do the big push, the moderate rebels, and the president basically said no. Rose does he continue to say no, or has that changed . No, were doing the United States is doing some stuff, but not its not decisive in any way. I think the saudis and the turks have been doing much more than we have been. Remains, 2016, the strongest rebel groups are i. S. I. S. And alnusra. Rose two groups that dont like each other. They dont, but theyre groups we would never support, ever. Thats how assad can view himself as sort of the bulwark of civilization fighting the islamic lunatics. Rose state Department Says without leverage on the ground we have no conversation. Assad today 2016 is stronger than he has been at any point since the war began. Rose so what does Vladimir Putin win by his intervention . I think he wins influence. I mean, syria rose they owe him big time. Look, the goal to have the United States has been to remove assad from the beginning. You know, president obama said that many times because the United States government believes hes the person driving the violence. I dont think assads going anywhere, you know, frankly. H he is entrenched. He is again, hes stronger than hes ever been. Hes got the russians, the iranians, hezbollah, i think theyre feeling good about themselves. Rose a piece was rine this week saying the only solution is to split it up. Its already broken. The question is it ever going to come together. Its like iraq. Its interesting how all this connects syria and iraq. You have the big battle happening now in mosul where the United States is supporting the Iraqi Government fighting mosul to expel i. S. I. S. From mosul which is the second largest city, but i think what is likely to happen lets say mosul falls, which i. S. I. S. Is basically driven out of mosul which i think is going to happen. What happens then . I think whats going to happen is a lot of the i. S. I. S. Guys are going to retreat into syria. I think a lot of the iranianbacked shiite militias that are now fighting in iraq against i. S. I. S. Are going to go into syria. I mean, a lot of them came from syria to fight in mosul. So, essentially, that battle going to move into syria. Assad actually talked about that. Rose what did he say . Thats whats going to happen . Yeah, essentially, again, it was a conspiracy, but he said, look, he said, this whole you know, the americans fighting i. S. I. S. , thats all theater. He said, what theyre really going to do is push i. S. I. S. Into syria, so we have to fight him here. Rose theyve retaken mosul and the iraqis are in that fight, arent they . Yeah, they are, but the americans are in the sky dropping bombs. I think whats really problematic about whats happening in mosul is that you have this really large number of shiite militias fighting there on the side of the Iraqi Government and the United States, supported and trained and directed by the iranians. The republican guard, the i. R. G. C. Are on the ground in iraq. Rose and in syria. Absolutely. So i think what is likely to happen, you know, mosul will probably fall, i. S. I. S. Will be pushed out, but then essentially the iranians have been trying ps to give it to them and the kurds said no. Theyll probably be able to secure that. Rose therefore, they would move into lebanony they have hezbollah friends. Yes. If you look at the map up you have lebanon, mediterranean, syria, and assad and then you have iraq. You have this sphere of influence that the iranians have been tight to secure for many years. Rose the shia crescent. The shia crescent, and its looking good for them now. Rose for the iranians. Yeah. And again, were kind of mixed up in this in a very i mean, i think if there is a legitimate criticism to be made about whats happening in mosul right now its that the United States government is, you know, fully knowledgeable of the role of these iranian militias in fight against i. S. I. S. , and there is thousands of them and, you know, a lot of these guys i mean, you can name these people, the leader of iranianbacked militia hezbollah rose are they shia militia supported by iran . Shia militia supported by iran. Bbazali kidnapped and executed seven american soldiers in 2007 in karbala. These are people we have been trying to kill. Rose do we have an option . Were doing air strikes. Rose but do we have an option . Could we have kept them out . Sure. The options are horrible. Rose there have always been options in terms of the iraqi prime ministers. Its a mess. How do we get i. S. I. L out of mosul . The iraqi army disintegrated. Rose so the brunt of the fighting is coming from iraqi shia militias, who you just described killed the americans, are doing the brunt of the fighting . Theyre doing a lot of the fighting. Typically what happened in fallujah and ramadi is you have american airstrikes, Iraqi Special forces very good, trained by the americans, very professional, and then you have iraqi army shia militias coming in behind them. What is really troubling to me is whats going to happen in mosul once they go into the city. They will be able to go inside the city. Then whats going to happen . Youre going to have these, again, very sectarian militias going into a largely shia militias going into a sunni city, pushed by an extremist regime in tehran, the americans will be hard pressed to control that. Rose human shields used. Yeah, i. S. I. S. Is evil, so weve made this kind of ugly deal rose this warfare makes strange bedfellows. Absolutely, and thats find of what weve done is sort of signed off on rose so where are the turks . They fighting or want to fight . Theyre trying to maintain their influence so theyve crossed the border in syria and iraq as well. Rose so is it possible mosul will go . Yeah, i think so. Its a question of how long its going to take. It might take a long time. Rose whats a long time . Weeks, months. Rose okay. Do you think its possible that, if they take mosul sooner rather than later, that they can then take raqqa . I think thats the plan. Rose because ive often wondered if thats what the president really wanted to do, look, ive fought the battle against i. S. I. S. And we took all the land they have. They had no caliphate, nothing. The capacity to send people into the urban areas of western europe and the United States. Yeah, whats distinguished i. S. I. S. From all the groups that came before it, al quaida, everybody else . They hold territory, a caliphate. Mosul is the biggest city they have, second largest city in iraq, two Million People before war started and raqqa is the capital. Those are the two poles. I think probably what happens is i. S. I. S. Retreats, whats left of it melts away into the desert and becomes what al quaida in iraq was. Rose baghdadi released his radio tape. Ranting. Rose telling them to fight to the last person. Rivers of blood, yeah. Which is interesting because a lot of people thought baghdadi was dead or gravely wounded but if you listen to the recording he sounds alive and well. Rose how did the conversation end with assad . Well, i think he made it clear to us that hes not going anywhere. I mean, you know, he talks about this election they had in 2014 where he got Something Like 90 of the vote. Hes very proud of that. But he said, you know, im the captain of the ship, and the captain of the ship does not abandon, doesnt jump overboard in the middle of a storm, so im searing the ship to shore steering the ship to shore. Rose by deposition, is the reality were looking at mean the obama policy failed . Well, i mean, there are two policies here, one is syria and the other is iraq. You know, iraq rose im talking about syria because this is about syria. Were preserving the iraqi state and were sort of holding that together. You know, the rose or i is the president right, it didnt have made a difference . I think president obama has made it clear that he thinks that if we try to do more in syria, were just going to make it worse, you know, and you get yourself involved down in the weeds in the middle east and youre just going to get all tangled up and make it worse. But, look, president obama has been very clear, assad must go. Thats the overall objective of american policy, it has been rose since the arab spring began. Absolutely. Hes said it many times because i think he believes that the Assad Government is essentially the root of the problem which is its very oppressive and driving the violence. And assad hasnt gone anywhere. So, you know, if the United States has clearly failed in that objective, i think. Rose second paragraph of your piece. In the five and a half years since the uprising in syria began, it has become the most catastrophic war of our young century. Assad most vilified National Leader in the world, as many as 400,000 syrians are dead and some 11 million, nearly half the countrys population, have been driven from their homes. Hundreds of thousands have fled to europe, hundreds of those have drowned in the mediterranean. Assad has been bra