Probably a smiling face. Rose a smile. Yes, and yet she was tough, but she was accessible. Rose donald trump and the shaping of an administration, and remembering the great journalism and the great person, gwen ifill, when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we begin this evening with a look into president elect Donald TrumpsTransition Team and specifically his appointment of chief strategist steve bannon. Bannon is executive chairman of Breitbart News which he describes as the platform of the alt right. The announcement comes as trump promises to unit a deeply divided country. Joining me from washington is ken stern, he profiled bannon in august for vanity fair magazine. Also joshua green of Bloomberg Businessweek and Philip Rucker to have the Washington Post and michael shear of the New York Times. Michael, ill begin with you. Tell me where do you think trump is and before we specifically focus on steve bannon, tell me where you think the principle appointment that might be coming out soon. Well, i think where we are is in a much more chaotic place than you normally are a week out after an election. The reporting that weve done here at the times and phil and folks have done at the Washington Post and elsewhere suggest that the transition has been very rocky, they had to change leadership in the first couple of days, ended up pushing out Chris Christie and an entire team. They brought in a new team. Now theyre frantically working on the 26th floor of the trump tower to try to put together the first big announcement after, of course, mr. Bannon and the announcement of the chief of staff, were waiting for rudy giuliani, the former mayor of new york, jeff sessions, senator from alabama, two names that have been bandied about for a couple of different jobs, probably secretary of state, defense department, attorney general, and we really dont have much of a sense of timing because there is no real communication from the Transition Team to reporters about kind of a timing that we might expect or aticular role. So were just waiting to see what happens. Rose tell me about Chris Christie . What happened h to him . Was it simply infighting or people who were jockeying for power or was there some sense by donald trump that he did not think Chris Christie was what he expected and wanted in his administration . I think it was a combination of a series of things, but you mentioned a couple. One is infighting and power jockeying. There is reporting that suggests jared cus kushner, mr. Trumps soninlaw was not eager to see him being part of the transition and administration. You had the bridgegate scandal in new jersey which in the last several weeks there were convictions in that case and there were some feelings inside the Transition Team that this was not a particularly good time to have a governor like Chris Christie who has these problems at home to be leading the administrations decision of who to pick. But not only Chris Christie but a purge of all his people, people who were close to Chris Christie, Chris Christie brought in, mike rogers, former congressman leading National Security effort, hes also out today. Part of whats contributing to the chaos is a sense that, hey, we already had one team and now we have to build another one. Rose phil, what would you ad to this overview . Mikes exactly right. Theres another power center here and thats senator jeff sessions, one of Donald Trumps most earliest and enthusiastic endorsers during the primaries and general election and hes exerting a lot of influence. He was at trump tower. His chief of staff has taken over. Hes having a lot of say over who gets other jobs and whos being vetted for some of the senior level positions in the administration and we just cant underscore enough a role that the family is playing. Jared kushner, husband of ivana trump, a Real Estate Developer like donald trump, hes having a lot of say over every single staff position, as are the other Adult Children of donald trump. Rose let me add two names in the National Security area. One is general flint who has been close to donald trump and is rumored as a National Security possibility . Thats right, and were hearing he is sort of personally overseeing all of the National Security selections right now. Hes having a lot to do with who is considered for c. I. A. , whosd considered for d. N. I. , whos considered at the state department, at the pentagon, all the way down. He is trumps most trusted National Security advisor. Hes considered sort of a shoein to be the National Security advisor at the white house but hes exert ago lot of control in the transition. Rose also john bolton. And hes under consideration for secretary of state. Hes a controversial figure himself. He had to be appointed for a recess appointment in the Bush Administration to become the ambassador of the united nations. Trump is considering him for secretary of state along with rudy giuliani, theyre the top two candidates, as far as we know, at this point, and the important thing about all these candidates under consideration is loyalty. Its something we knew in the campaign that donald trump prized loyalty from people, he demands it from people, and theyre really not giving a lot of consideration to people for top jobs in this administration who are not on board with the Trump Campaign during the general election and were not enthusiastically supporting him. So thats not only that the people in the Never Trump Movement are not being considered, but even if you were a republican who was neutral and you werent saying anything pro or con about donald trump in the campaign, thats a knock against you right now in this transition process. Rose i want to come to some general questions again but that brings me to steve bannon. Ken, tell me who steve bannon is and why is he so you know, when they made the announcement of the new chief of staff, Reince Priebus, it was steve bannon who led the list, and hes going to be principal strategist and senior advisor, someone most people dont know but enormously controversial. Yeah, so steve is a fascinating character. He was an investment banker and, about five years ago, maybe after Andrew Breitbart died, he took over the reins of breitbart and really created a Trump Movement before there was trump, and donald trump really road the wave of the breitbart audience, the republican nomination, and then brought steve in, in august, to be his Campaign Manager with the results that we all know. Breitbart is, you know steve and breitb art are really professional provocateurs is what they are around issues and nationalism, trade, antigovernment, antiwashington, i could say, i would say even more than that. I think without him, there would have been no Political Movement trump could ride to the nomination. You know, they called breitbart trump, but there is a synergy between the two because there is a movement that trump could develop and take forward. I dont think he would have been the nominee without breitbart driving that energy in alt right. Rose joshua green, tell me what influence he has. What is it he believes in that he may have influenced donald trump to believe in . Well, bannon is a hardright populist who believes that the same pop list uprisings weve seen sweep against europe with the brexit vote is sweeping across the United States as well and that trump is essentially the figure that embodied that here in the u. S. So everything bannon was telling trump was to position himself as just such a figure and succeeded in getting trump elected president. Rose but more than that, i mean, the characterization of him as someone who sees politics as a disruptive force, as an ability to disrupt the way things are, he was the one that wanted to bring the women who had made accusations against bill clinton to the debate, has a sense of theater people talk about, he has a sense of wanting to push trump to go to mexico to see the mexican president , those kinds of things. What im looking for is a sense of how his mind works. Well, bannon fundamentally is a creature of the media. Add Goldman Sachs he was a mergers and acquisitions banker who specialized in making deals with tv and movie studios. Part of the way bannon got rich is negotiated a deal between castle rock and ted turner where in lieu of payment he took residual to the seinfeld tv show back in the first couple of seasons, as we know seinfeld has done well. He moved from that into actual moviemaking. He made documentaries about sarah palin, the tea party, about the financial crisis, so he is very sharply attuned to media, to theater, to drama. If you read Breitbart News and the way they cover the news, it is kind of an all caps way of covering the news. And bannon has essentially been the karl rove figure in trumps ears these last few months and even back going a couple of years, advising him, coaxing him, pushing him down that path to become the figure that trump is today. Rose okay, but michael shear, what about these questions of racism, what about the questions of misogyny, what about the questions of a much harder and a much tougher mindset about how politics is played and certainly reflected in the language of donald trump . Right. Well, look, i think there will be two very interesting things play out as we watch steve bannon come into the west wing and that will be, one, the way in which he is personally defined. You saw an unleashing on the left yesterday of accusations against him personally as essentially not essentially as a racist, as a misogynist, as an antisemite, a bigot. On twitter, statements from nancy pelosi on down, their effort was to characterize him in that way, in part to undercut any effectiveness he might have going forward. His friends and supporters pushed back and said, look, regardless of you know, youre trying to put all this stuff on him, articles that might have appeared on the Breitbart News web site, that doesnt necessarily reflect him. I just want to say one other thing, though, thats going to be interesting to watch totally apart from his personal views. It is correct to say that the idea of somebody who is so incredibly antiestablishment being in that office, that sort of Senior Adviser office just a few steps down from the oval office, the way in which his inclination to blow this place up, to blow up washington, to attack the establishment clashes with the other person we know whos going to be there who is Reince Priebus who is the ultimate staffer, the ultimate establishment figure who ran the r. N. C. Since 2011 and by nature is wisconsin nice, a guy who believes in working with folks and coming together to get things done, i mean, those are two diametrically opposite forces, and as someone who covered the white house for the last eight years, that kind of Nuclear Confrontation at the very heart of the west wing is going to make this an incredibly interesting view to watch. Rose everybody weighed in on this. Does it also suggest something about the way Donald Trumps mind works . It absolutely does. Think it does. Go ahead. Well, i would say it absolutely does. Bannon has been advising trump several years. He told me when last we spoke he informally began advising trump in 2012, 2013, that trump was a big breitbart reader, that thats one of the ways that trump got locked into this idea of immigration that drove his candidacy, and i think trump is someone who feels comfortable having bannon in his ear. As we watch is chaos of trumps primary campaign unfold like paul man dopaul manafort being e settled on steve bannon, a guy he h wants in his ear and the white house the same way he did in the campaign. Trumps leadership and management style, when he was running his businesses and working as a candidate in the last year, he seeks advice from a lot of people. He would spend days at his desk in trump tower calling people, dozens a day, getting the them to weigh in on a decision, taking their temperature, getting their advice. Its not the way a president normally operates but its the way trump operates and hell bring that style to the white house and i think thats one of the reasons he has two very different people with equal authority at the top levels of his west wing. I think one thing i would say, i think just the point that michael made is incredibly important for breitbart, for bannon. Public enemy number two is the clintons and the obamas, the democratic party. Public enemy number one is the republican establishment. Thats what theyre created to fight. Its going to be an extraordinarily interesting conflictridden four years or two years or however long they coexist between bannon and his clique and the republican establishment. Rose Reince Priebus was chairman of the Republican National committee. Hes good friends of speakerrer of the house paul ryan, theyre from wisconsin. Righter and i think what you will see develop over the first few months or weeks of the administration, the two different kind of power that lives inside the white house. There is institutional power, and Reince Priebus comes in with more of that. E the chief of staff have institutional inherent powers that give him the ability to run a lot of things, then you have the personal relationships. Valerie jarrett doesnt have a particularly central institutional role and jet she has the ear of the president way more than a lot of the other people in the west wing do. So if steve bannon is that guy who whispers into Donald Trumps ear before he goes back into thd residence or flies back up to new york or flys back up to new york, hes going to be the one who has the bigger influence. Rose doesco he obviously listen to steve bannon about things trump wanted to do or didnt do because steve bannon said dont do that, its not the right thing to do at this moment, even though you might want, to even though your instinct might be to do that, dont do it . I mean, i think he did some of that and some of the opposite, right, which is to say, as eivedz else was whispering or telling, weighing in to tell donald trump dont do this, you know, bannon was saying, no, do it, go ahead be yourself be big be bold i think the mexico trip was probably an example, but i think there is probably presen plentyf other examples. I think well get more of that in the administration where well shake our heads and say, wow, he did that . And it will be the result of bannon saying go ahead, do it. Rose he said theres to be a link of poppism in europe and what happened in Great Britain with the brexit vote, yes . Yes, bannon has been close with nigel farage, the former champion of the brexit effort. Farraj happened tonil at bannons house a couple of years ago, the conservative Political Action conference, spotted a couple of days ago leaving trump tower, so farraj is someone bannon has made a particular effort to bring in not just u. S. Politics but into trumps world in particular and for me one of the weirdest scenes of the republican primaries was trump actually trotted farraj out on stage at a stadium rally in mississippi, of all places, this british aristocrat to talk about why donald trump ought to be the next u. S. President. So bannon is somebody who has a strange amalgamation of characters, many of whom i think will be roles in a trump administration. Rose one of the things thats interesting to me about all of this in terms of brexit, for example. After the brexit vote happened and trump identified with it so strongly, it was because he thought of it as aok movement ad he thought of what he was about as a movement, and he talked of it much more as a movement than the did about as a party. I think thats right, and one thing outer going to see bannon try to do is keep donald trump connected to the movement. So he will be here in washington as president in the white house cutting deals, doing legislation and all that and bannon will have his ear to the ground and try to keep trump rooted in what got him here and i expect well see a lot of theatricali] displays. We may see trump making major announcements on the road, hold rallies, roll out a legislative agenda in front of 10,000 people in front of people in pensacola, florida, to keep himself rooted and thats going to be part of the bannon portfolio in the west wing. Can i add to this point, i think one of the lessons president s sometimes learn when they go into the white house is it becomes difficult to stay connected to the movement that you created during your campaign. I mean, barack obama clearly sort of 20072008, very different than the thing we have been talking about with bannon and breitbart, but one of the challengesuis you get into office, you start having to do things your people dont necessarily like, you have to start cutting deals with the other party, youre sort of ensco