Other information. Police say these devices can help them locate suspects and missing persons. But privacy advocates point out the devices can also collect information on every mobile phone in the area. Law enforcement officials dont like to talk about this Surveillance Technology. Documents show that some Bay Area Police departments including oakland, San Francisco, and san jose already own these devices. This week the santa clara board of supervisors approved the sheriffs request to buy the technology. But as youre about to see, the sheriff couldnt provide the board with a lot of details. Were going to spend 500,000 to buy a particular model of a product, yes . Again, we refer to it as a mobile but what the device im asking you on the record in an open and public setting for a reason. Whats the model . I think its i think the current one is hailstorm, i think is the name that they call it. Are you asking us for a model number or i just think its noteworthy that im asking for something thats been in the works for a year and a half. We dont know what the model is. We dont know what the product is. If i was buying a chevy nova, id know it was a chevy nova. The people who are purchasing this will know what the exact model number is and what its called. I didnt ask what the exact model number is. I just pointed out were having a conversation about a 500,000 purchase with a 40,000 a year ongoing cost and the two people who are in front of us asking for us to authorize that cant tell us what model were buying, what its called, what the name is. I dont know if its a stingray, a triggerfish, a hailstorm, some other thing. Doesnt sound to me have we seen a demonstration of this item . It is a mobile cellular triangular im sorry. Have we seen a demonstration of this item . Other agencies have this. We have not had a demonstration of this particular so we dont know what its called and we havent seen a demonstration of the thing that you want us to spend half a Million Dollars of taxpayers money for with a 42,000 ongoing annual expense. I think weve described the equipment and its capabilities. It would be easier for us to ascertain the accuracy of that information if we could see the product specs. Can we see the product specs . Im not sure i can answer that question. We dont currently have them. I dont know if theyre releasable. Okay. Its also widely understood that products of this type pick up not only individual cell phone numbers and locations but by virtue of the fact that theyre mimicking a cell phone tower end up pulling information for other phones as well. Is that correct . We cannot track a phone unless we have the code, and the code comes from the Cell Phone Company via a search warrant. Was there a competitive procurement process on this . No. It was single source. That was supervisor joe simitian grilling sheriff laurie smith. Simitian voted against the plan. His fellow supervisors approved the purchase with a caveat. The Sheriffs Department must develop a policy outlining how it will be used. We asked a department spokesman, Sergeant Kirk stenderup, for more details about the plan. Sergeant stenderup, thank you for joining us. Thank you. Why did your department need the stingray device . So it all started back in 2012 when we had a kidnapping case down in south county. A young guy, teenage girl goes missing on her way to school. Deputies get a report of that, the first question they ask to the mother, does your daughter have a cell phone in and of course yes. So we immediately contacted the Cell Phone Company through our existing communication lines and tried to locate that cell phone. We actually spent the next two days trying to find it. Little did we know that we located her about a quarter mile from her residence in the field. But it really brought to the forefront this topic of being able to locate cell phones in these emergency situations or when we need to find an armed and dangerous criminal. We brought that to the forefront. And here we are three years later trying to acquire this device so that we can have a better tool and a better resource to keep the community safer. Have you tested this device . No. We actually havent even demoed it. So why are you buying something you havent tested . What were looking at is we know other Law Enforcement agencies throughout california and the United States use this as well as federal law inforcement agencies. So what were doing right now is were in the process of trying to secure this device. Obviously there is some security features by this company that manufactures it that goes through it that dont want a lot of information disclosed about it. Were trying to do our best to make sure we give the Public Information as we have to dispel those myths but also realize that its a tool and a resource and it doesnt do a lot of things the community i think believes by googling it. This is not an eavesdropping device. This is not a device that can read text messages. It cant download the data off cell phones. It cant even listen to a cell phone. Privacy experts will take issue with that. They say these devices are very capable about disclosing information about texts, your emails and conversations. Can you guarantee you will not be accessing that information . I can absolutely guarantee it because again what were talking about is capable. And were not buying that device. Were not buying the device to do that. Thats not our intention. Thats not what we want to do. Our intention is to buy a mobile phone triangulation device. Our device has no capabilities from the manufacturer to do that. We dont even have the ability to modify that. Its strictly for being able to triangulate a communication on a mobile phone device. Is it true it can capture cell phone data from bystanders who happen to be in the area . Thats not true. Thats absolutely not true. And thats the kind of myth were trying to dispel. What happens is you have to have a certain code or serial number that is required to have a search warrant to get from the Cell Phone Company. We then enter it into this device and it will triangulate the location of the phone. Theres no ability for the phone to capture everybodys information. Theres no ability for that. We dont want that. We dont want to be able to eavesdrop. We want to be able to locate that cellular device in these very limited circumstances to keep the community safer. So when will you use these devices . Only when you have a warrant . And what kinds of training will you provide officers . So again, this is not training we provide the whole department. These are training for a specific amount of people that go through the manufacturerbased training. We will use it in circumstances for serious or violent felonies against people. Your murderers your rapists your child molesters. Search and rescue implications. So people who are at risk and missing, we have for example, in 2014 we had over 111 atrisk missing persons calls. And finally for Human Trafficking. Its become a big top nick Santa Clara County and our Human Trafficking task force is recovering a ton of victims. In fact in the last six months weve recovered over ten, many of them being juveniles. Its another tool in the toolbox we can use to help people being exploited for sex and labor trafficking to stop and bring those responsible to justice. Will you obtain a warrant in every single instance before you use the stingray . Correct. We will obtain a warrant, either prior to and that requires a judge to sign off on thehd probable cause, or in the circumstance where it isnt a life or death emergency we can obtain by signing a form under penalty of perjury to the Cell Phone Company to get that code, were required that within three days a search warrant must be issued based on that. So the safeguards are in place to prevent the misuse of it. Well, according to the aclu its identified 48 agencies nationwide that are already using the stingray. Have you looked at their experiences . Is there any evidence that this is indeed an effective Law Enforcement tool, or are we just making presumptions here . No, we actually have talked to Law Enforcement agencies. And it is a great tool. And to build on that. A lot of Law Enforcement agencies weve reached out to, none of them have reported any privacy issues or misuse issues. So i think a lot of times when people bring that up about those issues when we reach out to these agencies were finding thats whatnot were hearing back. Well, sergeant stenderup, thank you for your time. Thank you. And joining me now to discuss this new Surveillance Technology is jennifer lynch. Shes a staff attorney with the Electronic Frontier foundation a Civil Liberties advocacy organization. Jennifer, thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me on the show. What concerns do you have about this technology . Well i have several concerns. One, my first biggest concern is that we just dont know very much about where the technology is being used. And thats in large part because the government is essentially hiding the use of their technology and the corporations that are manufacturing the technology are requiring Law Enforcement agencies to sign nondisclosure agreements to prevent information coming out to the public about how these devices are being used. But from what we do know, these devices create a huge privacy invasion because they can collect information on hundreds or thousands of phones in a given area. Well, you just saw the interview with sergeant stenderup with the santa clara Sheriffs Department. Based on what he said does that ease your concerns . Well, its nice to hear that santa clara is planning to get a warrant before they use these devices. However, we have yet to see any kind of policy from the Sheriffs Department that guarantees that theyre going to use these devices in a way that protects privacy. You dont buy his argument that he basically says that it will not be used to capture the cell phone data off any bystanders for example . Well, thats what im particularly concerned about. Because from the manufacturing materials weve seen and from how other agencies are using these devices they are definitely using the devices to capture information on all cell phones within a given area. A lot of times Law Enforcement doesnt know the cell phone that theyre looking for and so they use a stingray device to find that cell phone. So perhaps theres a way to clamp down on how the stingray is being used and prevent it from collecting all that data but we havent seen that. Police departments say that this device could help them locate victims of kidnappings. It could help them locate dangerous criminals. Are these devices effective crimefighting tools . We have no idea. Again, theres so little transparency about how these devices are being used. Its very easy for a Law Enforcement agency to say well, weve got all this crime out there, so we need these surveillance tools. But without a link to how theyre going to use the tools to find somebody whos been kidnapped or find somebody whos a victim of Human Trafficking we just dont know. And we certainly didnt see that in the interview with the sergeant. In general, how long have agencies been using this on average . Is there enough data there for you to be able to tell if theyve been used effectively . I think if we had access to the actual data we might be able to tell that. But at this point we dont. We barely even know which agencies have them. I mean, right here in the bay area it took a number of public records requests to find out that san jose and fremont and San Francisco and Alameda County used these devices. But much of the information that came out in response to a public records request was blacked out because Companies Like the Harris Corporation require that in their nondisclosure agreements. And why do you think Police Agencies go along with that . There seems to be very little transparency in these cases. And very little competitive bidding. You know i think its because the Police Agencies see it as free money. The moneys coming from the department of homeland security. So its not coming out of the Police Department budget. And its earmarked to purchase stingray devices or other kinds of Surveillance Technology. Some people listening to this discussion may think, well, you know what im a lawabiding citizen, im doing nothing wrong i dont have a problem with this. What do you say to them . Thats not how our constitution was drafted. Our constitution was drafted to protect everybody. And it places important limits on Law Enforcements ability to gather data on us. So it doesnt matter if youre a lawabiding citizen today. The government could consider you to be a not lawabiding citizen tomorrow. And if the government is collecting all this information on us and storing it they can use that information at a later date to link you to a crime. As Technology Becomes increasingly sophisticated, is there a way for us to strike that balance between Public Safety and privacy . Well, i think the most important thing is that the public needs to know what Law Enforcement is doging. What are these surveillance technologies Law Enforcement is using . And the public needs an opportunity to provide feedback. That certainly didnt happen in santa clara. Do you have any evidence that Law Enforcement agencies are misusing or abusing these devices . We dont. We dont have that information because we havent seen a lot of information come out about how the devices are being used. But we do know that these devices are used to capture multiple phones in an area and theres no limitation placed on whether those phones are out in public or not. So for example, if i have my phone in my house, the device is going to capture that Location Information even though the phone is in my house. So in light of that just real quickly, do you see a need for more safeguards to protect our Civil Liberties . What should that look like . I definitely see a need for more safeguards. The public needs to provide input on how the technologys being used. And Law Enforcement needs to commit to using a warrant and to prevent misuse of this technology. All right. Well, certainly very interesting. Jennifer lynch with the Electronic Frontier foundation. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me on the show. And now on a related topic, Stanford University researchers have discovered another way your phone could reveal your location. Scott shafer is with Computer Scientist aaron schulman. Aaron schulman welcome. Thank you. In laymans terms tell us what you and your team discovered. So our smartphones today are filled with a lot of sensors. For instance a compass and gyroscope, et cetera. And whats interesting is most of those sensors require some sort of permission from the application thats using them. So if you download an application it will say hey i need the compass and that might reveal your location. But theres one sensor in particular that doesnt actually need that and its sort of a littletalked about sensor which is the power sensor. Which tracks the power consumption of your phone over time. So these apps potentially can access that . Thats right. Yeah. Any app actually in the Android Store can access that. And that power sensor is a bit troubling, or can be because it might reveal something about your location. So for instance, when youre driving down a road, youre moving closer and farther away from cell towers. And the closer you are to a cell tower, the less power your phone consumes to talk to it. And the farther way the more. Do you think this is a curious coincidence you that found this, or is it something that was built in deliberately for some reason . Well, they definitely built it in in order to help developers of applications. So they can improve the Energy Consumption of their applications and save our phones some battery life. But it just so happens that you discovered that these are not protected, basically. Yeah exactly. I think as it was viewed as a developer tool maybe it wasnt viewed as something that needed to be protected. So was this oh, my god, someones going to spy on me or was it oh, this is interesting let me find out more about this . It was interesting. We found it was kind of a direct result of Something Else we were working on and we said oh, actually that makes sense. You could use that to track the users location. So it was even a bit surprising to us actually. But why is it important . Its important because again, its not protected. The user doesnt know, doesnt have any information that they could have their location tracked by these power measurements. And so who would have access to it . Who would want to be tracking us on android phones . Sort of the most likely attacker would actually be someone who has a large commercial application and they want to use that information of your location to figure out sort of