Supporting organizations Whose Mission is to promote compassion and creativity in our society. The bernard and audre rapoport foundation. The john d. And catherine t. Macarthur foundation, committed to building a more just, verdant, and peaceful world. More information at macfound. Org. Anne gumowitz. The betsy and jesse fink foundation. The hkh foundation. Barbara g. Fleischman. And by our sole corporate sponsor, mutual of america, designing customized individual and Group Retirement products. Thats why were your retirement company. Welcome. I want to tell you about a book you simply have to read. I promise, you will laugh and cry and by the end, i think youll be ready for the revolution. The title is this town, an upclose look at how our Nations Capital really works. I can tell you, its not a pretty picture the story of a citys bipartisan lust for power, cash and notoriety, so overpowering that everyone and Everything Else gets sucked into its undertow. Government becomes no longer the servant of the people, but in the thrall of big money, lobbyists and a media happy to live off its fancy leftovers in a feeding frenzy of gossip and shallow speculation. How appropriate that a capital built on a swamp has sunk so low into the stinking mud. Mark leibovich is the chief National Correspondent for the New York Times magazine and is the author of this town, which has everyone whos anyone in washington talking and whispering. What a tale it is. Mark leibovich is with me now. Welcome. Hi bill. Good to be here. Ive read your book twice. Its fun to read. Its eye opening. I learned a lot from it. And yet, at the core of it, theres a tragic story. Do you see that . Absolutely. I didnt see it fully as i was writing it, but i see it in how people outside of washington have reacted to it. The tragic story is that what has grown up in this city that was supposedly built on Public Service is this permanent feudal class of insiders, of people who are not term limited. Of people who never leave and never die, figuratively never die. And who are there and who are doing very, very well for themselves, very, very well for washington, and not very, very well for the United States. Can you frame the historical moment in which youre writing . I would frame it really over the last 10, 15, maybe 20 years youve had this explosion of money in politics. Gold rush, you call it. Its a gold rush. People now come to washington to get rich. That was never the defining ethic of the town, certainly 30 years ago. There is now so much money. It is now the wealthiest community in the United States. It is home to seven of the wealthiest 10 counties in the United States. And frankly it is i mean, the power is obviously going to be very alluring. There are going to be some idealists whos going to be the makeadifference types. But ultimately this has more in common with Silicon Valley, with hollywood, than with wall street. Which is a rush to cash in. It is a rush to somehow take from this big entity, this big marketplace, some kind of reward, as opposed to doing something that will reward the country. Whats stunning is how disconnected washington is, the political washington that you write about, from the lives of everyday people. Is it because of this gold rush . When you look at the disconnect between washington and the rest of the country, which people talk about. I mean, theres a shorthand, well, washington is out of touch, right . People dont fully know what that is made of. I mean, i think you see intuitively on tv or when you visit washington, that people dont talk and deal with people the way most americans talk and deal with each other. I mean, theres a language of obsequiousness, a language of selling, a language of spin. But most but look it is a wealth culture. These are people who are doing very, very well. Its true in the demographics, its true in the sensibility. The people you write about in here seem very comfortable with this town. They do. I mean, its been very, very good for them. I mean, its look, this town has worked for a lot of people, a lot of very good people, a lot of very bad people, and a lot of very mediocre people. But these are a lot of this book is filled with profiles of people who have made this town work for them. What do the readers out across the country tell you about the picture you have reported . Well the disconnect, its interesting, bill, has been very much displayed in the reaction of the book. I mean, i think in washington you have had a very carnival like reaction to the book. Its, like, oh, who wins . Who loses . What are the nuggets . Will leibovich be cast out . Will he not be invited to lunch with party x or y again . So, you have a very silly and shallow read inside the bell way, which is titillating i guess in its own way. Outside of washington you have a truer sense of the outrage. You have a sense of an education. You have a sense of, oh my goodness. Ive known washington has been something ive been disappointed in. But i didnt know it looked like this. I didnt know it had come to all of this just this incredible contempt for what they are supposed to be there for. Contempt for what their constituents are, i. E. , us. You say political washington is an inbred company town where Party Differences are easily subsumed by membership in the club. And you talked about the club. The club swells for the night into the ultimate bubble world. They become part of a system that rewards, more than anything a system of selfperpetuation. Selfperpetuation is a key point in all of this. It is what youre going to how youre going to continue. I mean, the original notion of the founders is that a president or a Public Servant would serve a term, couple years, return to their communities, return to their farm. Now the organizing principle of life in washington is how are you going to keep it going . Whether its how youre going to stay in office, you know, by pleasing your leadership so that you get money, by raising enough money so that you can get reelected by getting a gig after youre done with congress, after youre done in the white house, by getting the next gig. Mr. Smith goes to washington, it aint. No, it isnt. And look, i tried to find a mr. Smith character. I wanted to and i had some back and forth with the first publisher of this book, which is not the ultimate publisher of this book, about finding someone to root for. They wanted someone to feel good about to sort of run through the narrative. And there are people i think i could root for, the people i like in washington, i think people who are there for the right reasons. But i couldnt find him or her. And ultimately, i gave up trying. And i tried to sort of create a cumulative picture over a five year period. What does that say to you . I think ultimately it says that this is not well, first of all, its a very cautious culture. And i think cowardice is rewarded at every step of the way. How so . Its rewarded in congress. You everything about the congressional system, whether its leadership, whether its how money is raised, is going to reward cowardice. The true mavericks are going to be punished in some ways. If you are going if you want to build a career outside of office when youre done, when youre voted out as a lobbyist, as a consultant, as many of them do, you are absolutely in you are absolutely encouraged to not anger too many people. Not not take a big stand . Not take a big stand, right. No truth is going to be told here by based on any sort of cowardly go along, get along way. And i think that there are many ways in which the money, the system is financed the politics are financed the way the media works, that will not under any circumstances reward someone who takes a stand. As you and i both know, Many Americans see washington today as a polarized, dysfunctional city. One that is not sufficiently bipartisan. But you describe it as a place that becomes a determinedly Bipartisan Team when there is money to be made. That is absolutely true. I mean, ultimately, the business of washington relies on things not getting done. And this is a bipartisan imperative. If a tax reform bill passed tomorrow, if an immigration bill passed tomorrow, thats tens of billions of dollars in consulting, lobbying, messaging fees that are not going to be paid out. Lets take one example. April 20th, 2010, the Deepwater Horizon Oil well, oil rig, explodes in the gulf of mexico. 11 people killed, the largest marine spill in the history of the industry. Oil gushes onto the seafloor for at least 84 days. You, leibovich, look at that crude oil flowing into the gulf, and you see an equally large flow of cash spreading across washington, covering our Nations Capital to, as you say, manage the crisis. Now, tell us how they set about to manage that crisis. So, bp is in this whole heap of trouble, okay . They have this disaster that they are pegged with. The president looks powerless. I mean, what are you going to do . You have this awful calamity taking place. Systematically bp is spending tens of millions of dollars to basically tie up the most prominent Washington Democratic and republican lobbyists, media consultants, ad people, to where you had an allstar roster. And all of a sudden, everyone is working together. I mean, you had rhetoric of president obama, you know, criticizing bp. You had bp saying, oh no, were going to make this right. You had republicans saying, oh, the president should be doing more. So, you had this tv sort of debate, the same noise you would see in any other story juxtaposed with these terrible oil soaked pelican pictures from the gulf, which in fact the city is just reaping this bounty. You say bp, british petroleum, put together a beltway dream team that included republican super lobbyists like ken duberstein, democratic super lobbyist tony podesta, former Vice President cheneys one time spokeswoman anne womackkolton, republican flacks like john feehery and democratic flacks like Steve Mcmahon and mcmahons business partner, the republican media guru alex castellanos, whos a contributor to cnn. Yes. Mcmahon is on msnbc, so its very bipartisan that way too. And mcmahon, the democrat and castellanos the republican are partners in a firm called purple strategies. Bp hires them to spearhead this 50 Million Television campaign you talk about. To those affected and your families, i am deeply sorry. They were brought, you say, into the fold by the democratic operative, hilary rosen, who was working for a londonbased firm that was also working for bp. And she was also a pundit for cnn. I mean, what a web. And again, i think the other piece of this is that a year later Geoff Morrell, who is the head spokesman for the pentagon under, you know, president obamas pentagon, has become the chief washington spokesman for bp. Former White House Correspondent for abc news. Abc news. He followed bob gates to the pentagon first with president bush then with president obama. Sort of a classic revolving door figure, geoff is. But no, so that was i mean, its a classic two step. I mean, i also think bp has done very, very well rehabilitating itself. I mean, thanks largely to flooding the media with all kinds of goodies and a lot of advertising money. And were supposed to feel good about bp again. Narrator two years ago, the people of bp made a commitment to the gulf and every day since weve worked hard to keep it. Bp has paid over twenty three billion dollars to help people and businesses who were affected, and to cover cleanup costs. Today the beaches and gulf are open for everyone to enjoy. And whats the moral that you we draw from that story . About this town . About this town, is well, first of all, when theres a problem, there is a lot of money to be made in this town. And, look, its another example of washington doing very, very, very well. Lets look at jack quinn and ed gillespie. Jack quinn is the white House Counsel under bill clinton. He went onto cable a lot and defended the president during a lot of his Campaign Finance problems during his two terms. He met ed gillespie, who was then a republican operative in green rooms. They had this green room friendship. People become friends. And in ed and jacks case, they went into business together. They started quinn gillespie, the first real major sort of bipartisan lobbying firm. One stop lobbying. One stop lobbying. You want to deal with republicans, you want to get to republicans, you go here. You want to get to democrats, you go here. They founded them so they their firms founded in 2000. Jack quinn got into some trouble in 2001 after he successfully lobbied bill clinton to pardon his law client, marc rich. Fugitive. Fugitive marc rich. There was a big todo then. Jack was big time in the barrel. Hes hauled before congress. He feels like hes being looked at in restaurants. And ed gillespie said, look, jack, in a few months everyones going to forget about this and all theyre going to remember about you and this incident is that you got Something Big done. And sure enough you know, jack did a good job for his client. The outrage dissipated. And the firm the lobbying firm thrived with the rest of the industry. Four years later, they sold out for 40 million. Now how do they make that much money in four years and the talent they bring is that theyre creatures of washington . Thats a very, very, very valuable commodity. I mean, if you can sell yourself as someone who knows how washington works, someone who has these relationships, someone who can get on the phone and get the president of the United States to pardon, you know, your fugitive client, thats a very, very marketable commodity. I mean, if you see if you are seen as someone who knows how this town works, someone who is a usual suspect in this town, you can dine out for years. Thats why no one leaves. You once asked the democrat jack quinn what appealed to him about the republican ed gillespie, who became his partner when they first started bonding. And he answered . Is. Well, ed got the joke. Whats the joke . Thats what i said. I said, jack, whats the joke and he said, the joke is that, well, were all patriots. And i thought that that was both it was some mix of sarcasm, contempt, glibness i dont know. It was a fascinating answer. You reported here, that over the last dozen years corporate america, much of it wall street, has triple the amount of money it spent on lobbying and Public Affairs in dc, because, and im quoting you, have figured out that despite the exorbitant calls to hiring lobbyists, the ability to shape or tweak or kill even the tiniest legislative loophole can be worth tens of millions of dollars. First of all, theres extravagant waste in the private sector of washington if you go to some of these lobbying offices and parties and what theyre billing people. I mean, it looks like an incredible racket. In fact, these companies are getting what they pay for. I mean, tony podesta we talked about before, a democratic lobbyist, talked about how great it is that laws are so complicated now. The context was i think it was doddfrank or it might have been in health care, there are these tiny little loopholes. They go on for thousands of pages. And if you can be a lobbyist or a lawyer at a firm who can understand this much and youre getting paid, you know, tens of millions of dollars, but youre probably saving your clients, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars, sometimes more. So, its very cost effective. I mean, the complete arcaneness of this world is again, very, very good for business. Lets quickly run through some of the roll call of influence peddlers that you write about. Billy tauzin. Billy tauzin was a former democrat, became a republican congressman. Went on to become the head of the one of the top pharmaceutical lobbies in the country. After, in the house, overseeing the drug industry, chairing the committee that oversaw the drug industry. And he was crucial in passing the medicare prescription bill, which has meant billions in profits for the Drug Companies. Then he resigned, as you say, ran the pharmaceuticals lobbying arm in washington. And in 2010, according to you, made 11. 6 million. Steve kroft and 60 minutes did an expose of him. I mean, this doesnt look good. When you push this bill through that produces a windfall for the Drug Companies, and then a short time later you go to work for the drug lobby at a salary of 2 million. Theres nothing i could have done in my life after leaving congress that i didnt have some impact on after 25 years in congress. If that looks bad to you, have at it. Thats the truth. In fairness to billy tauzin and former medicare chief tom scully, they werent the only Public Officials involved with the Prescription Drug bill who later went to work for the pharmaceutical industry. Just before the vote, tauzin cited the people who had been most helpful in getting in passed. I specifically want to thank the staffs and committees from ways and means. John mcmanus that did such a great job. Within a few months mcmanus Left Congress and started his own lobbying firm. Among his new clients were phrma, pfizer, lilly and merck. From a majority side of the finance committee, linda fishman. Fishman left to become a lobbyist with the drug manufacturer amgen. Not the least of all but the energy and Commerce Committee staff who toiled so hard for us, chief of staff pat morrissey. Morrissey took a job lobbying for Drug Companies novartis and hoffmanlaroche. And jeremy allen. He went to johnson and johnson. Kathleen weldon and jim barnett. She went to lobby for biogen, a biotech company. He left to lobby for hoffmanlaroche. They did a marvelous job for this house and we owe them a debt. Thank you all. We owe them all right. Wow. Yeah, i mean, this happens it happens with every bill. I mean, i think what was striking about that is congressman tauzin actually sort of i