of them getting power? that's what it's all about. >> let me play devil's advocate. senator manchin is being viewed as standing in the way, but can you picture a time when democrats could thank joe manchin, too, for more years -- >> oh, yes. >> if republicans take back control of congress and, thereby, they would have use of the filibuster and the like. >> well, listen, joe manchin was a crucial part in terms of saving obamacare, the affordable care act. you know, had he not supported that effort, that -- that would not be here right now. listen, i'm not going to demonize joe manchin because i have a lot of respect for the senator. and i understand it. it's important to listen to perspectives and it's also important to understand how personal this is. i was just with my grandma last weekend, who lived under jim crow here in south carolina. it's not something she has to read about in textbooks. she lived under jim crow where she was treated as a