if it's not an incarceration sentence. but also recognizing the moment in time and whether or not imposing a sentence with incarceration would be a worse impact on society and cause more tumult than it would if he didn't impose one. so, i think it's -- it's obviously a tough call. but i think a reasonable exercise of judgment, it can go either way here. >> andrew, i keep thinking of all the dogs that haven't barked, right? i say that as someone who has two dogs that rarely bark. the idea that new york city was going to burst, right, if trump was put on trial. you were down there every day. there was a space for the protesters. they never needed more space, is the most generous way to describe the enthusiasm of trump's supporters.