Good evening, just a day before the president s chief Counter Terrorism advisor, john brennan heads to capital hill for his hearing to take over the c. I. Averment. The white house has to answer some tough questions about its overseas drone program. The catalyst is a white house memo obtained that justifies american citizens. Civil liberties advocates and senator ron widen tweeted today every american has the right to know that their government believes theyre allowed to kill them. Most americans seem to casually accept this. David corn is Washington Bureau chief for mother jones. Both are msnbc political analysts. Jebtle men, lets look here at carney. There was a briefing today and carney defended the president s position on drones. I wont talk about specific instances, but the fact is the methods that we use are designed specifically to avoid civilian casualties. I think its fair to say that far few er civilians lose their lives in an effort to go after Senior Leadership as opposed to an effort to lead a country with hundreds of thou sants of troops. Why are you dancing around the question of whether or not we kill civilians. I dont think that im dancing around it. I just didnt dispute it. Skbr so theyve been killed, right . I dont gis disagree with that. What are they saying about why we have to use drones . People ought to be asking questions. This is a change. This is the way it is now and not the way it used to be. They say, look, we have to do Counter Terrorism. We didnt ask to, but we have to. Weve come very close to some serious attacks and the capableties of drones now are such that this is our best weapon. So they think they absolutely have to use drones. But theres a lot of questions that have to be asked. One of them is should there be some sort of judicial oversight or something . But doesnt it just take it to the same individual and that person would have to be appointed, as well. Well, when were talking about a u. S. Citizen, i think its not unreasonable to say, and it would be my opinion that there aulgt to be another set of eyes on it. We find out that somewhere in yemen or somewhere in saudi, somewhere in pakistan, we understand that theres an activity thats basically a group of people putting together a plan to attack us. We have three ways to stop that. We can use the drones, we can use the seal attack. Or we can invade the country and go to war. It seems to me youve got to make a judgment. I dont know anybody of any persuasion that down the road will be able to stand up and say i knew we had the enemy attacking us. I knew they were planning stuff. I knew who they were. So in the end, you have to choose. You have to choose something to do. This week, particularly, were rolling a couple of issues together. Theres an issue of whether you can use the drone to attack an american civilian. Thats what the memo was all about yesterday. I thought the memo did not make a Strong Enough case. As long as theres one informed high level official, thats not good enough. Do we have the right to kill someone whos a turncoat against their country . I think if you find a terrorist group that is, indeed, active, yes. I believe its a pretty high standard. Not just the propagandas, but someone who is involved in some operational way. So if theyre putting out antiamerican attitudes, you cant kill them. On the issue of principle, did we have the right to kill benedibe benedict around . Yeah, sure. Very active. Highranking in al chi da. And we killed him with a drone. And so i shed no tears for him. And i think nobody else does. But what does bother me a bit, though, is that theres no structure. Theres no process. So what abuse are you concerned about . Lets say its a murky case. Its a cleric just the prop began thats. Just the tokyo rose type. You can have the highest regard with president obama and john brennan. You can realize theyre only going to be there for three more years. This is the way warfare is going to be. This is a weapon. This is a flexible, very useful, valuable weapon. Whats wrong with sticking the judgment of people around obama and not trusting the judgment of the value of people around dick cheney . If you give the power to this president , then you can expect the next president to have similar powers. I commend everybody with the yugs of drones and attacking not american. Whats the difference between an american drone attack and a seal attack . Are there less Collateral Damage . If you read the New York Times this morning, it talks about instances. So what do you do . If you come what do you do . . Well, perhaps, in some cases, you have to put more of your own blood at risk. Youre sitting here. What would you do if youre a president or commander in chief or your general for example, and we send in 20 guys, were going to lose five or ten. The drones for days above them. And they see them as signals and messages of America Power or arrogance and they realize that theyre going to come down and strike somebody there. And it may hit them as well. And that has a real potential where is that happening right now . In yemen. Youve got to weigh those things in. Gene . Im somewhat less concerned about what has happened today than whats going to happen in the future. And i really think thats so my issue is not so much that the decision was made to go after awlaki. What should be the protocol . I think what they do is fine but there should be Something Like the fisa court that can look. As a practical matter, its going to rubber stamp most of what the white house wants to do. And this would be like going to a judge for a warrant. Right. There can be an outlier. There can be a case in which the interesting thing a dispassionate observer decides, you know, this is not fairly right. This is too close a call. And i would like you would like to have a dialogue where someone says are you sure theres an actual terrorist plot here . Your intelligence could be your standard . Theres a whole conversation about imminence and what does imminence mean. And i get imminence doesnt mean the hijackers are boarding the planes. Its way ahead of that. But theres theres a benefit to having a fisa court too. I know people that worked on the fisa court. It makes the people coming to the court this is when you get wiretaps. It makes them do their job better. They have to meet certain standards. I like this. Were raising a lot of questions here. One is is there a terrorist attack at foot . Is there an american involved . And how do you trade off civilian casualties, Collateral Damage if you want to call it that, and american casualties . Mike rogers chair of the House Intelligence Committee defended the president today and hes a republican. He said that Anwar Al Awlaki deserved to be killed. And he countered the criticism that theres no oversight of the program. Lets listen to him. This is somebody who had said that he didnt want his u. S. Citizenship anymore. He had officially joined al qaeda. Al qaeda he did claired war on the United States. Once you made that choice, you no longer get the protections you would. If youve joined the enemy overseas, youve joined the enemy overseas and were going to fight them. We have oversight into it. I knew about the operations. The targeting sets all of that leading up to it including very shortly thereafter. And i review all of the air strikes that we use under this title of the law. Well, thats a good interview for andrea to get that guy. He says once the guys turned and its manifestly so, its easier for us. Its easier for us. It is. But its not just about policy. It is about procedures. And so the memo yesterday had a lot of troubling aspects to it. As we talked about yesterday throughout the network. And so if you want to do these things and if you could make a good argument, then you should have a good procedure that reinforces that so there is some what of a semblance tomorrow john brennan, will he hit on this tomorrow . Youll hear a lot about this on the hearings. I dont think hell get beat up that much. But people will ask questions they ought to ask. He has talked about this to the extent he can. Theres one big issue described by people in the white house. Id trust you running a fisa court. I would. Im not sure just some judge doing family court i want to know the person that has sensitivity about what America Needs for its defense and what we need to protect our constitution. Both. Its just having an unbudsman type person overseeing this saying bring me better intelligence, lets double check. And in some administrations you can trust that perhaps more than in others. So its good to have an independent look. Id like to see a strong leash of dick cheney. I know. Hell be back. You got a good briefing. You dont need a briefing. When we come back, the Republican Partys rebuilding year. Joe scarborough is struggling with trying to rebuild the party. This is hardball, the place for politics. If the post sal service gets i believe this administration wants to destroy the Free Enterprise system. Thats republican paul broun. Good luck, republicans, with that rebranding. And dont miss the rick perry, jerry broun smackdown. Two governors who have very little use for each other. This is hardball, the place for politics. With accident forgiveness, they guarantee your rates wont go up just because of an accident. Smart kid. [ voice of dennis ] indeed. Are you in good hands . [ voice of dennis ] indeed. How do you keep an older car running like new . You ask a ford customer. 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Republicans want to cut costs but democrats worry the jobs will be slashed. If the plan goes forward, saturday delivery will end this august. Well be right back. Some things ive never seen before. This ge jet engine can understand 5,000 data samples per second. Which is good for business. Because planes use less fuel, spend less time on the ground and more time in the air. Suddenly, faraway places dont seem so. Far away. Officewith an online package new colincluding domain name,y suddenly, faraway places dont seem so. Far away. Website builder with five pages and basic email just 49. 99 thats up to 76 percent below online providers and only at Officemax Stores shimmy, shimmy chocolate. Shimmy, shimmy chocolate. We, we chocolate cross over. Yeah, we chocolate cross over. [ male announcer ] introducing fiber one 80 calorie chocolate cereal. Chocolate. Welcome back to hardball. In football they call it a rebuilding year. Its when the coaches and School Fathers know they have graduated too many seniors and have too many untested freshmen on the return team. Could we say the Postmitt Romney republicans are in the same boat . Theyre not expected to win soon especially if hillary runs but do need a rebuild their party for the long hall. Its thought if they dont clean up their image theyre headed for years of defeat in elections. Look at the proposals were seeing now. Karl rove wants to keep the fringies. And things like clinton did with school uniforms. And tell College Students the jobs might be tough. What about the gun issue . Should the republicans stick with the nra or tell Wayne Lapierre to get a real job . How could a party built other the decades on the people who left the democrats abandon those issues that attracted the rule south and the west people and the miners and the ranchers and the gun owners. And the people furious about immigration. How do you ban those people and keep a party . Tonight an expert, a passionate believer that politics can get better. My colleague joe scarborough. Heres the question. How do you keep this huge tent the Republican Party has built in the last 30 or 40 years with people from the south, the west, the miners, the ranchers, the religious right, all those people that have decided the Republican Party is their natural home and yet you have people in the fringe costing you your image. Well, youve got to stand up to people on the fringe. You know, when parties go extreme they get roundly defeated. It happened to democrats in 1984. It happened to the republican neocons on 2006. It happened in the offyear elections back in 2010. Americans thought democrats went too far to the left, and they punished them and to almost historic proportions in that election. But 2012, republicans got punished because they were the party of todd akin instead of the party of colin powell. They were the party of Richard Mourdock instead of the party of george h. W. Bush. He wanted nothing to do with except that a guy like powell is necessary if youre going have two wings. Chris, weve lost five out of the last six popular votes in president ial races. And a lot of the reason why is because weve had a lot of discord voices to the extreme that first left the Democratic Party because they became too extreme starting in 1968. Lets talk about the leadership issue. Lets take Something Like the gun issue. I think the gun issue is very tough. I am despondent to the point of believing there are so many guns in existence right now, i dont know how you stop the water fall thats been going on for generations. Wayne lapierre, he took some heat on fox news over the web video that mentioned the president s daughter. Listen to this. I think some people are going to say Wayne Lapierre still has the hammer lock on people from pennsylvania, indiana, ohio. Right across the country to the far west except maybe california and new york and connecticut. You dont want to go to the war with the nra. What do you make of that . Should they stay arm in arm with the nra . Go on semiautomatics but maybe challenge them on background checks . Where do you draw the line on the right there . Well, theres some things the republicans have to do if they want to play smart. Theyre going to have to go after gun trafficking. Theres a good bipartisan bill on the house floor. And republicans need to get on board on that or theyre going to be punished even to the offyear elections. They need to get on board with universal registration. Wayne lapierre agreed with that in 1999. And many agree with that. On background checks. Yes. Universal background checks. Not registration. Youll pay for that tomorrow morning. Im actually paying for it right now. No. It was but universal background checks is something that 91 of americans support. Its something the republicans need to embrace. And if the republicans do just those two things, they can say theyre responding not only to whats happening in sandy hook but whats happening in chicago every night, whats happening across america every night. Let me try this. It seems the two party played roles. Its not the mommy and daddy party. The fact that republicans were good on National Defense and law and order and capital punishment, all the tough guy stuff. It seems the two parties still have advantages in what they can do that the other cant do. Can the Republican Party put teeth in an Immigration Reform bill . You really will have guest workers. You will have the parts that work economically and will give some enforcement power to it. Not just the nice stuff of letting people become citizens over time. Why dont the two parties put the republicans put the teeth in, the democrats put the bennys in it. It makes sense, doesnt it . You can say the same thing about entitlement reform, National Defense. There are things the Republican Party can do to differentiate themselves from the Democratic Party, but were not going to win elections if we continue to be like i said before, the party of todd akin or Richard Mourdock. Is karl rove right . You have to be gate keepers, people like party chairs, big fund raisers. Of course. Of course they are. But i dont know that karl rove after his performance in 2012 should be the gate keeper. He was inside the bubble as much as anybody else so much so that he melted down on election night. You know, it was almost like trying to get james brown off the stage. You had to keep going out there saying its over. Its over. Into a superstar. Thats all i know. That was one night she won the battle. She won the battle there. But you need somebody like Haley Barbour who understands in 93 and 94 had to rebuild the party. Haley barbour who would come on our show with other people wouldnt embrace olympia snow. Even on jim jefferts most liberal day its pretty simple. We got to do what we do in alabama when it comes to football. Weve got to realize its about winning. This electoral process, its not a primal screen therapy. Its not about screaming and yelling and talk about all of your resentments and feeling good about yourself. Its about what i say every day on the show. Not just winning in northwest florida but winning the suburbs of philadelphia. How do you do that . You dont do that by defending the survivalist wing of the nra. You dont do that by debating contraception which was taken care of by the