but the whole notion that withholding funds and obviously the pressure applied was done subtly but it seemed to me between the phone call and the various witnesses it's unmistakable that's what was going on. it would be foolish to think nothing else but that was going on. and that's what was so disheartening and disappointing. >> we know this president said things we were told not to do as kids. you know, don't make fun of someone's appearance, don't make fun of someone's handicaps, basically don't be cruel as a way of making a joke, if you will. and the other day the president talked about john dingell, i knew the guy, good guy i liked him. and he's a tough guy. and the president referred to him being in hell basically as a way to taunt his widow who was now a member of congress. where does that fit in your way of looking at trump? >> well, that's a classic