interrogation and trying to get intelligence out of them. we obviously know about the so-called torture programs and so forth that were used to try to extract information from these al qaeda operatives. there was then a move towards military commissions. and then when the obama administration came in, i remember going to a meeting at the white house with 9/11 families where they were told there was going to be a shift to another form of military commissions in order to bring swift and certain justice. that was in 2009. so that is fully ten years ago, and we're talking about maybe having a trial in another year and a half, two years from now. under the obama administration it also kind of languished. they considered bringing these people to the united states for trials in civilian courts, then pushed back from capitol hill, that never happened. the whole military commission process really became kind of a stepchild or a sfwlzombie, what metaphor you want to use here, it just kind of marched on with