Honest with the American People. I think sometimes we can disagree with the facts. There are certain things that we may miss we may not fully understand when we come out, but our intention is never to lie to you, jonathan. Spicer felt the need to make that claim after he came under heavy criticism for his bizarre appearance on saturday where he berated the White House Press kofrps for its inauguration coverage before storming off without taking questions. He said nothing about the historic womens march taking place as he spoke, which might well have been the largest demonstration in history, estimating 3. 2 Million People took to the streets in the u. S. Alone. Instead spielser made false claims about fairly trivial matters including Inauguration Day ridership on the d. C. Melt row while suggesting without evidence that trumps was the most watched inauguration ever. The next day Kellyanne Conway defemd he using a novel argument in an interview with our own chuck todd. Youre saying it is a falsehood and theyre giving sean spicer, our press secretary, gave alternative facts to that. But the point remains. Wait a minute, alternative facts . Alternative facts, four of the five facts he uttered, the one thing he got right was zeke miller. Four of the five facts he ulterred were not true. Alternative facts are not facts. Theyre falsehood. Whether or not the white house accepts an objective reality we all agree on, a reality in which facts are facts has massive implications. Consider the Unemployment Rate, it is undeniably an imprecise measure and an extremely bed rock, a way to gauge how americans are doing overall, how the economy is doing. Touring the Campaign Trump dismiss the Unemployment Rate as totally fiction and claimed it was actually 42 . I have seen numbers of 24 . I actually saw a number of 42 unemployment. 42 and it could be zbll for the record, unemployment, the most commonly used measure, there are several measure willed by the government, stands at 4. 7 . Skld in light ofhose comnts this question, what is the national Unemployment Rate, spicer today refused to state the w pridens position. Hes not focused on statistics as much as he is on whether or not the American People are doing better as a whole. I think too often in washington we get our heads wrapped around a number and a statistic and we look at and forget the faces and families and businesses behind those numbers. So i think thats where his head is at. That logic, trump of course does not need to lower the Unemployment Rate to prove he is fulfilling his promise of putting more people to work, he can decide whether or not it happened. When conway was asked yesterday to respond to a white house petition that calls for the Immediate Release of the president s full tax returns, which has garnered more than 276,000 signatures, she said this. The white house response is that he is not going to release his tax returns. We litigated this through the election. People didnt care. They voted for him. Let me make it clear, most americans are focus on what their tax returns will look like while presume is in office, not what his look like. After taking heelt for stating flatout trump would not release his returns, conway treat she meant he is still waiting for that auld i think weve never seen evidence that it exists to be completed. As for the rest of the statement, the issue wasnt litigated in the election since the trump camp punted with the audit claims. As for the notion people dont care, statistics those pesky statistics, say otherwise. 74 of americans according to a poll want to see the returns. Then suggested that the gravity of the white house would change trump the president. But he and his team have con ported themselves the same way they did during the campaign, giving no ground while making announcements that are untrue or unverifyable. Think about what happens if the president and republicans in Congress Kick 20 Million People off healthcare and say they didnt, or massively cut taxes for rich people and say, tum willy, we raised them, dont worry about it. Right now at this moment is when the parameters of that debate are set, whether we are establishing a baseline for whether there is actually some collective selt of facts and objective reality we can agree on or whether the white house can get away with offering alternative facts when they dont like the real ones. Joining me now michael field, an msnbc political analyst and richard stengel, an msnbc analyst. Michael, i guess i want to ask you this. Lets distinguish between whether this matters politically or not. Okay. It may not matter. I mean i think basically the president fighting with the press, people dont care about. Let me stipulate that to you. Right. My bigger concern is what information the president is getting and what he believes, what he actually in his heart believes. Is he reliant on actual information . Just now we got a report in the meeting with congressional leaders the president brought up the debunked claim there were millions of fraudulent votes cast in the election. I am led to believe he actually believes that, which to me is more worrisome than if they were lying about believing it. If that makes sense. No, it does make sense. I think it does go to how these things are sourced for him. Where is he going on the internet to get this information . Who is he talking to, whether it was in the campaign, the transition, and now the west wing, that is providing him with this information . But i think a more important question though is who then goes to him and goes, mr. President , thats not right, thats not correct. Right. That is not the truth that you thought it was. That to me, that person is the most important person in the white house in my view. That is a great point, michael. One of the things that struck me when ive reported on government, particularly the federal government, particularly high level of the federal government as the white house is, a huge amount of what a government dolls is process information and pass it up to people to make decisions. Lets be clear, sometimes that information is wrong, right . Yes. And it has huge consequences when it is, weapons of mass destruction in iraq, but it is also the project of the government bureaucracy like the state department for intake and process the information and get it to the people running the government, to make sure they can make the best, most informed decisions. Yes. In fact, when i was in the state department i barely had time to go on the internet to look for anything because the inflow of information was so gigantic. That is litigated too as well. I mean words matter in government, right in so everything, every word that comes out of a principles mouth is litigated over and over. Gigantic difference in saying were concerned about affairs in south africa as opposed to were deeply concerned or very concerned. People litigate and struggle over those things. The fact is the words that come out of the president s mouth influence the entire government and entire world, and those are the most desperately foughtover words. The fact that the president seems to not have even talking points when he is speaking is a scary situation. Michael, i want to come back to you in a second but i want to follow up on that, rich arld. The president said something saturday where he muse willed, we didnt take iraqs oil, maybe we have another chance. We have 5,000 men and women impelled with the iraq army. Things like that can have a big impact. Can you unequivocally state this administration will not send more troops into iraq, as the president puts, to take the oil . Im not going to talk about what we may or may not do. The president has been very clear he doesnt telegraph forward taking options off the table. I think barack obama, who had probably the most meticulous filter of any human being who ever lived, whenever he was talking about iraq or syria you could watch in realtime. It was like a spinning ball. He was talking from a teleprompter often because he wanted to be so precise. To have a thing where you are freelancing verbiage, where hes not the worlds most articulate person, can change what is going on in Foreign Policy overnight. Part of what is happening, michael, what trikes me too, is in the media environment, the informational environment in which we live, it is the case the president can assert something or the president s spokesperson can assert something and theres a significant portion of the population who if chosen if they have to choose between the New York Times and the president or the president and a photo they saw, theyre going to choose the president. Right, yeah. Thats part of what is happening here. Yeah, thats a big part of what is happening here. It has become over the course of the last 18 months the justification for the entrenchment donald trump personally will take and certainly members of his administration will take. We have seen it on putin, we have seen it on the emails, on a number of things, where that unconventional wisdom or thinking has become the convention. Thats largely because they get that reinforcement from those supporters who dont care whether or not it is true, factual or whatever. But the fact that, you know, youre fighting and youre moving in a certain direction, were behind you with that, thats what matters. Well, what i think the president learned this weekend, and certainly sean spicer did, was it is a little more complicated than that and it does matter what you say, how you say it, when you say it. To richards point, words mean things and the precision out of the white house matters most. And theres a credibility issue here. You were talking about the Unemployment Rate in the intro, but lets say conditions under a National Emergency and the president s spokesperson comes out and says things about what the government is or isnt do, what areas have not been evacuated, that is a simple relaying of information,ut there has to be a basic repository of trust in that pronouncement. Otherwise it is a terrifying thought to see what you do in the absence of that. Pat moynihan used to say youre entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. The spokesperson has a lot of different audience, he has the president , the white house and the American People. People need to trust what he is saying is a fact and has been verified, and even though every administration tries to create their own narrative yeah, lets be clear about that. Because you mention, chris, in a national disaster, that spokesperson is speaking for the nation. Hes not just speaking for the president. Right. Michael steel and rick stengel, thank you for your time. Appreciate it. Still ahead, the first day of Donald Trumps presidency was met with recordbreaking protest across the country and around the world. We have people here you do not want to miss. Hours after Michael Flynn is sworn in as National Security adviser, news he has been under investigation for contact with russian officials. That story is after this twominute break. And i will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which i am about to enter. The duties of the office on which i am about to enter. So help had me god. So help me god. Vice president mike pence yesterday swearing in senior white house Staff Members including former brightbart publisher steve bannon, steve of staff Reince Priebus and Michael Flynn. Hours after he took the oath of office the wall street journal reporting flynn is being investigated by u. S. Counterintelligence officials examining his contact with russian officials. It was followed up by a similar report from cnn, there have been previous reports of a longterm investigation led by the fbi into ties with Trump Associates and the kremlin. This is the first time it may go to the new white house. This particular probe appears to center on a series of phone calls reported earlier this month between flynn and the Russian Ambassador to the u. S. Multiple calls were reported to have taken place on december 29th, and that day is significant because it is the exact same day then president obama announced sanctions against russia in response to its alleged interference in the 2016 election. One day later russian president Vladimir Putin declared he would not retaliate. Trumps team repeatedly changed its story about these calls, first insisting all contact between flynn and the Russian Ambassador had taken place on december 25th and 28th before the announcement, then later conceding the two men had in fact spoken on the 29th following a a series of exchanges by phone and text. Today White House PressSecretary Sean Spicer changed the story yet again. Theres been one call. I talked to general flynn about this again last night. One call talked about four subjects. One was the loss of life that occurred in the plane crash that took their military choir. Two was christmas and holiday greetings. Three was to facilitate or to talk about a conference in syria on isis, and four was to set up a to talk about after the inauguration, setting up a call between president putin and President Trump. Asked if President Trump would stop the investigation, listen to that. I dont believe he has spoken to anyone about that, and i dont know he has not made an indication he would stop an investigation of any sort. Joining me former u. S. Intelligence officer malcolm nantz, author of the pilot to steal the 2016 election. Malcolm, let me start with this. I dont know what it would mean to have the National Security advisor of the United States under a counterintelligence investigation. What does that mean to you . I mean presumably we have to clear an fbi background check to get security clearance, and how would you get security clearance if an investigation was happening . Well, general flynn probably was maintaining his security clearance, but hes now working at the pleasure of the president of the United States. The president can order him to be cleared. But in this Certain Circumstance with regards to a counterintelligence investigation, you might have caught me as i was coming on camera, that last statement was really shocking. As of right now we dont know what the fbis counterintelligence forces are actually asking about general flynn. It was very suspicious and i use the word suspicious, that on the day that we are kicking out 35 russian spice and diplomats from this country in retaliation for a cyber warfare attack on the fundamental democratic system of the United States that general flynn would actually either take calls or make calls to the russian ambassar to the United States. Now, we dont know what was said, but, believe me, the russians have a version of what was said, and it had better jieb with what general flynn is telling the counterintelligence officers who will be interviewing him. That is also there is sort of a factual matter here, did he make the calls, how many calls were there. This is from cnns report. They said the calls were captured by routine u. S. Eaves dropping targeting the Russian Diplomats according to intelligence and Law Enforcement officials. Thats pleural. I should say three outlets have the story and they have multiple sources. Here is my question. It strikes me, substance aside, a brazen kind of leak from these officials blazecally saying, we are monitoring your phone calls to the man who is now the National Security adviser to the United States. Well, general flynn would know from all of his great experience as director of Defense Intelligence and as an officer coming up in the military ranks, there is something called ownforce monitoring where Government Systems and people who are related to high levels of government, for security purposes they do monitor phone communications, you know, particularly for counterintelligence purposes, to make sure someone is not an agent of a hostile intelligence agency. So general flynn would know that. But in this particular call, he might feel that he had a secure communication with the russians. I dont know what would make him feel secure, and that of course is suspicious in itself. Thats why we now have spy hunters going through these phone communications. Well, i mean it appears so far from the reporting we have from the three different outlets, you had strong feelings about one of the first appearances of the new president on saturday, he went to the cia. Right. It has been sort of a controversial appearance. It was referred to as despicable by john brynan, ex head of cia. Leon pa net ah said he forgot he was president. He stood in front of the wall of honoring, honoring the 117 members who gave their lives from the agency. He talked about crowd size, his war with the media. There was a lot of whooping and hollering and it is unclear whether it came from trump staff and partisans or actually the members of the agency. Afterwards he said, i had a great meeting at cia headquarters, packed house, paid Great Respect to wall. Amazing people. Your response to that event . Well, i would like to say that i beat john brennan by calling that event despicable by one hour. I think i was pretty vehement when i went on cnn the other day and said it was actually a disgusting a