National Security Adviser all together. Trump then asks the directors of National Intelligence to clear him of any guilt in the matter. When that fails, he fires the fbi director saying he wanted to rid himself of the russian thing. He then shared with the Russian Ambassador his relief having gotten rid of the fbi director. Thats a lot of obstructing, not to be obstruction. Thats hardball for now. All in with chris hayes starts right now. Tonight on all in what is the nature of what you saw in i saw interaction that raised questions. The russia plot thickens. It raised questions in my mind again, whether or not the russians were able to gain the cooperation of those individuals. A former cia director goes further than ever in describing what he saw, as the current director of National Intelligence wont deny the
about it. Usually hes the first out of the box. Let me ask you this. Its sort of remarkable, the color in this article. The sense you get is the president just sort of cualling through intelligence officials without any awareness of the possible impropriety of the entire endefer. Thats right. Thats what is so remarkable about this story all along, with President Trump trying to get fbi director jim comey to intervene to drop the investigation into mike flynn, to then refine that hes trying to get the nsa director to come out publicly to say theres no evidence of collusion. He doesnt understand the lines, the traditional lines between Law Enforcement agencies and the political the executive branch, the political white house. Its also noteworthy that
bears further reporting. Notably today, dan coats was also asked about that. And he said he was not aware of it. And so we will have to continue to report out. Now, that is a little more significant in that its now youre starting to talk about youre moving into more what could be considered Obstruction Of Justice. All right, ellen, thanks for your time tonight. Joining me now is senator chris murphy of connecticut. First, lets start with your reaction to the reporting were just talking about, the president contacting coats, rogers, among others it appears in an attempt to knock down this story. Well, first, it certainly sounded like dan coats refusal to answer the question is a confirmation of it, that is part of this pattern of a president who is trying to shut down this investigation any way he can. And this is a pattern of
behavior that really does start to look like Obstruction Of Justice. So i think were going to continue to follow this story. You pair it together with the confirmation there were contacts with the russian government during the campaign, and it feels today as if the walls are real Kri Cloly Closing In On Th president. Former Director Brennan said something very interesting today about briefing your colleagues in the senate, the gang of eight particularly. I wanted ed ted to play that f. Take a listen. We kept congress apprised of these issues as we identified them. Again, in consultation with the white house, i personally briefed the full details of our understanding of russian attempts to interfere in the election to congressional leadership, specifically senators harry reid, mitch mcconnell, Dianne Feinstein and richard burr, and to representativing paul ryan, nancy pelosi, devin nunez and
adam schiff between 11 august and 6 september. Thats last september, height of the campaign that hes briefing republican and democratic members of congress. Are you what is your reaction to the reaction of folks like mcconnell and ryan and their the way theyve handled this issue throughout . Well, i think theres a question there whether they had informed congress about the russian manipulation of the election or the context with the Trump Campaign. But the fact of the matter is, this should have been a much bigger deal at the time. And i know that both senator mcconnell and speaker ryan know the potential gravity of this, and unfortunately, they are not taking it seriously enough. Theres real political peril for republicans if they continue to stand with this president and back up some of his attempts to try to stop the truth from coming out. Ultimately this will land at their feet, as well as the
president s. Do you ask yourself what else is the white house up to when you read a report in the Washington Post . Yes and no. In part because it doesnt seem like much happens in this white house without it ultimately being reported. Not even the president s private selection of a lawyer is a secret for more than a few hours. Listen, i think this administration is so ham handed in the way that it tries to stop the truth from coming out, that they eventually get caught and it gets reported on. Im just thankful that there are so many good reporters around washington that are plebleeding this truth out and that we have an independent counsel that can take some of this reporting and give us a set of recommendations how to proceed here in the congress. Theres been a very active debate on and off the record about the use of Obstruction Of Justice, which has a precise legal meaning, and impeachment. What is your feeling about that . Well, as you know, chris, you
have a decision twl whether to forward. If theres a belief that a crime has been committed, you would think that would rise to an impeachable offense. But its a decision by congress as to what it believes is high crimes and misdemeanors. So were going to watch whether this rises to the level of Obstruction Of Justice. But frankly, whether or not it does, if there is an ongoing pattern by this president of trying to stop investigative agencies from getting the truth or if you continue to have evidence that the campaign, perhaps with the president s knowledge, was coordinating with the russians, that alone without the Obstruction Of Justice charge would be enough to start that discussion of consequences in the senate and in the house. Senator chris murphy, thank you for being with me. Thanks. As a few folks pointed out yesterday, it was 44 years ago
yesterday on may 22, 1973, that this was the front page of the new york times. Richard nixon conceding an effort to conceal some aspects of watergate. The nixon presidency was brought down in large part by the socalled smoking gun tape, a june 23rd, 1972 Recording On Which Nixon tells the staff to direct the cia to stop the fbi from investigating the watergate burglary. Joining me now, attorney jill banks, one of the
prosecutors in the watergate scandal. So let me start with this question. From your perspective, having been a prosecutor during watergate, how proper and or legal is it for the president of the United States to reach out to members of the Intelligence Community to try to get them to go on the record in his defense or even to intervene in an investigation . Completely illegal. It is Obstruction Of Justice. Really . You think facially, flat out . Flat out. Anyone who is saying differently, people are saying well, you have to show corrupt intent. Yes, you do. But asking sessions to leave the room when you are having a conversation with comey about the investigation is clear enough evidence of intent. And its exactly what got Richard Nixon into trouble. He was plotting with his aide, halderman, to get the cia to tell the fbi stop investigating on the false grounds that it would hurt national security. Really, the Breaking Point in watergate was precisely that,
that nixon sort of cooked up this idea that he was going to tell the fbi, that they were going to uncover some black ops the cia was running. That was the point, where it all flipped over, right . It was the discovery of that tape, which was just before trial. We asked for additional tapes. Went oh the Supreme Court. They said we have a right to them. That one tape, june 23rd, just six days after the breakin, was exactly the smoking gun that led to the republicans going to the president and saying if you dont resign, you will be impeached. And why was that so important . There was a lot of facts on the table at that point. What was it about that, from a legal or political perspective . One, it was just an accumulation of things that by that point you couldnt ignore anymore. And it was he had lied. He said he didnt even know about the coverup until march when john dean told him there was a cancer growing on the presidency. This was in june. So it was publicly committed to, i didnt know until march. But he actually knew in june, and he was plotting in june. He was part of the coverup. I think it was just all too much. Theres you said this is obstruction, talking about this president s behavior. So heres a question to you. With watergate, right . The underlying infraction, which is the breakin and a variety of transactions that happened, that there was a coverup of an actual first order crime. If its the case that there is nothing theyre covering up from a collusion stand point, does that change the legal, moral, political consequence of this obstruct what you call obstruction . My opinions are based on legal. Ill leave the political to your political advisers. I dont know what will happen whether there will be impeachment, whether theres the will for impeachment. So thats a different thats
a political question. But the interesting thing here is, the underlying crime could actually be as bad or worse. You had them talking to the russians, and we dont know about what. Thats going to be testimony interestingly this week, although today the former cia Director Brennan said there was a pattern of conduct between the campaign and the russians that was concerning. Thats disturbing. Let me ask you this. I guess my question is, is it possible to commit Obstruction Of Justice, to impede an investigation into something that you didnt do . Thats a very interesting, philosophical, legal question, and im not sure it may arrive at that moment. I think we may. But i have a feeling you dont engage in the kind of behavior here, if there isnt an underlying crime. So the question is, exactly what are they concealing and why are they concealing it . What is the connection to flynn that makes the president protect him so much . Theres just too many questions. Jill winebanks, thanks for being with me. That was great. Coming up, new subpoenas and threats of Contempt Charges for Donald Trumps exnational Security Adviser, michael flynn. And what former cia chief john brennan described as the treasonous path after this break. My Ancestry Dna Results are that i am 26 nigerian. I am just trying to learn as much as i can about my culture. I put the gele on my head and i looked into the mirror and i was trying not to cry. Because its a hat, but its like the most important hat ive ever owned. Discover the story only your dna can tell. Order your kit now at ancestrydna. Com. For my constipation, i switch laxatives. Ed Stimulant Laxatives make your body go by forcefully stimulating the nerves in your colon. Miralax is different. It works with the water in your body to hydrate and soften. Unblocking your system naturally. Miralax. Fifth amendment and refused to turn over business documents related to his interactions with russian officials. So the committee has issued two new subpoenas, this time directly to the businesses, since corporations cant invoke the fifth. In a letter to the committee, flynns lawyer asserted that his client had been the target on a nearly daily basis of outrageous allegations. Flip also previously requested immunity in exchange for testimony which he was not granted. In the house investigation into ties between the Trump Campaign and russia, democrats are citing new evidence against flynn and pushing for another subpoena. Congressman Elijah Cummings wrote to chair Jason Chaffetz saying joining me now, msnbc contributor, former fbi double agent, authority of how to catch a russian spy. Navid, lets start with the
allegation by Elijah Cummings that they have evidence he lied to the people interviewing him when he was getting a Security Clearance review. How big a deal is that . Its a big deal for two reasons. The first one is the pragmatic one. Its potentially a crime. If he did this knowingly and there was an intent to sort of cover something up here. The second one is, on the counterintelligence side. When someone purposefully misleads something in regards to an sf86, this form that is a security back ground questionnaire, if you have a counterintelligence officer, it raises a red flag, besides for the obvious reason. It shows potentially an attempt to deceive. And that is a very troubling thing. I want to just run down, here are some of the Problems Flynn currently has in terms when you talk about that sort of deception as a red flag. He did not clear his rt
payments. He allegedly didnt disclose those foreign payments in a Security Clearance interview. Didnt register as a foreign agent. And lied about his contacts with the Russian Ambassador. Whether he did anything wrong, there is a pattern here that, as you say, it would seem to me would raise red flags. Thats right. Again, taking this to the question of criminality aside for one moment, if youre looking at this and youre a security officer, youre going to make the determination if this person warrants or meets the criteria to be given a Security Clearance, youre going to have very serious concerns about issuing that clearance. So it shows a pattern potentially of deception. That is the thing that really does trouble me. I mean, we know what happened from 2014. We know what happened most recently in 2017. But theres a large gap of several years where we dont know what mr. Flynn was doing. I was watching the testimony today and there was a lightbulb
moment for me about collusion and cooperation. Youve been clear about your skepticism of open collusion and cooperation. Brennan said this thing that il thought of conversations weve had in that regard. Take a listen. Ive studied russian intelligence activities over the years and ive seen it, again, manifested in many different of our counterintelligence case and how theyve been able to get people, including inside of cia, to become treasonous and frequently individuals who go along that path do not even realize theyre along that path until it gets to be a bit too late. How does that relate to your awareness of how russian intelligence or any Intelligence Agency operates in terms of cultivating people without them even realizing theyre being cultivated . Thats right. The russians are so sophisticated when it comes to this, and i would call it the
romance phase. Theres this part, and i was dealing with the gru, and he never said to me we want you to commit freetreason. Theres a careful, slow progression where theyre determining if youre real. And this concept that someone is going to sit down with you and say, i want you to spy, its unlikely. So thats exactly right, its this slow dance and it can take years. Theyre also paranoid and looking for signs that you may have been coopted. So what brennan said rang true. Its a slow dance. So what im hearing from you, theres a possibility that there is this two collaborators exchanging information, it could be the case that russians are pulling off this operation while attempting to essentially compromise or infiltrate in a unilateral way agents around the Trump Campaign. Thats right. So if you going back to that timeline with flynn. We talk about 2014 when he was essentially fired by President Obama. This a bitter general would be a perfect target for the russians. They would make an approach. This is how i would do it. They would make an approach, and that may not be illegal or even raise the concerns of mr. Flynn, who is a 30 plus year veteran of the Intelligence Community. So that is it is exactly right. They might build a network of people and then whats curious, chris, that all these people ended up in the Trump Campaign. But youre right. It just seems like this space has to be reckoned with in terms of theres a sort of cartoonish image that well find some plot which people were sitting down in the back of a runl restaurant, and this seems like a more fruitful line of thinking. Thank you for joining me. White house unveiled the Trump Budget Today with massive cuts to many of the things candidate trump said he would
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