Washington post that u. S. Spy agencies intercepted conversations in which russias then am bassor to the United States, Sergei Kislyak allegedly told his superiors in moscow that he discussed campaign related matters, including policy issues important to moscow, with Jeff Sessions during the 2016 president ial race. Now if accurate that would directly contradict public assertions made by sessions like this one. Let me be clear. I never had meetings with russian operatives or russian intermediaries about the trump campaign, and the idea that i was part of a continuing exchange of information during the campaign between trump surrogates and intermediaries for the russian government is totally false. In a statement sessions spokesperson said the attorney general stands by his testimony last month that he never had any conversations with russians concerning any type of interference with any campaign or election. Now this latest scoop by the Washington Post has some really interesting timing, breaking just three days after trump said this to the New York Times. Sessions should have never recused himself, and if he was going to recuse himself, he should have told me before he took the job, and i would have picked somebody else. Its extremely unfair and thats a mild word, to the president. If youll recall sessions recusal came he had two meetings with kislyak in 2016 he failed to disclose during his confirmation hearing in january. The new revelations if true contradict the various explanations sessions offered about the content of those conversations, most of which he has said he cant recall. Now make no mistake, this kind of revelation is potentially very damaging to an attorney general especially one who just got a big vote of no confidence from the president. Joining me now is ari melber, host of the beat premiering monday night on msnbc, must see tv, malcolm nance author of the plot to hack America Sarah kinsey, and msnbc legal analyst paul butler. Thank you all for being here. Malcolm, you and i had a conversation, we will not disclose our undisclosable conversations that we talk about this russiagate stuff offline but you were make the point of kind of information, these intercepts released this would be a very big deal if it were true. This is twice there have been information released in the news media we call crowned jewels, holy grail type intelligence that absolutely positively just should not be in the hands of the media, and if this story is true, and lets give it a grain of salt. Its going to leak out from the russians or from one of the top eight people who have authorization to see raw intelligence. The post said it came from current and former officials. Would former even have access to this . Mike flynn would have had access to information like this, absolutely, he was the National Security adviser at the time but current . Youre talking one of the gang of eight, the people who are cleared for this level of information, and to be quite honest, i come from the secret intelligence world. I dont like to talk about this. This should not be seeing the light of day for 75 years and if its true it makes me wonder do we have a Valerie Plame style leak to put the final nation into jeff session coffin or do we have a russian game thats being played against us, and trying to confuse and create chaos in the white house. The other big question, if this was leaked from one of these sort of aides or nine people who have access to this kind of information the question would be why and the reason i found the timing sort of odd it seems clear that donald trump would love for Jeff Sessions to just walk away and resign. He didnt do it, surprising many people in the white house that after donald trump gave that New York Times interview and really gave him a vote of no confidence and he didnt quit, if the purpose of a leak like this is to induce him or encourage him to quit its a lot worse, right . It is worse and youre asking the question from the godfather, qui bono, who benefits . As you said in the top of your setup here comes at a time that donald trump is putting pressure on Jeff Sessions not for immigration or policy issues but how his tenure may be affecting donald trump and so there is that question i think a fair one about whether this current official is trying to help the president or match the president s criticism of Jeff Sessions. Of course, the ultimate irony ther there, would obviously be a white house that says theres nothing wrong with any contacts with russia, now the problem is that Jeff Sessions had a meeting on russia so obviously theres no internal logic there. It also goes to a political point i want to floag. Donald trump ran on saying he was really good at firing people, his reality show and his brand promise were supposedly matched. Weve seen he struggles to get the ondone. We know he doesnt hold loyalty for everyone but when it came to mike flynn the actual firing was hard for him. When it comes to Jeff Sessions if he lost confidence the president does have the authority so he could remove him and when it came to the most controversial example jim comey the president didnt stand up and say i know how to do this, youre fired. He pulled the Justice Department into that odd letter that hasnt stood the test of time, so this seems to be a problem for the president when he doesnt like how someones doing, he doesnt actually know how to pull the trigger cleanly and appropriately. In this case what he would have to do in order to get rid of a lot of people presume the ultimate goal here in a sense is to push and ill go to paul butler on this, is to push out Robert Mueller, that Robert Mueller is sort of the ultimate target of this, donald trump is pretty much telegraphing hed like to let him go but legally he cannot fire him according to the statute he could only be mueller the special counsel only fired by the attorney genial and since this attorney general recused, something trump is angry about hed have to rely on an underling, a rod rosenstein, he could go down the line in the Justice Department to to it. Paul butler, i wonder if the theory this is inducement for sessions to clear the way for a more pliable or attorney general who could fire mueller then why would donald trump tweet this, this morning, since 3 33 in the morning. And he tweeted a new intelligence leak from the amazon Washington Post, this time against a. G. Jeff sessions. These illegal leaks like comeys, must stop. Thats odd hes seeming to tweet in support of him. Yes, so the president has placed the American People in a position where we have two wretched choices. We can continue with an attorney general who, if the post story is right has been misleading at minimum about his dealings with russians, and possibly has lied under oath, which is a federal crime, or we can have a new attorney general who the president has made clear would be chosen with a litmus test, what he would do about this Russian Investigation, whether she, this new attorney general, might stop it, that will be the president s apparent main consideration and who he selects. The problem, joy, is if the president does either use his pardon power to thwart the investigation or select a new attorney general by getting sessions to be fired, the president himself is courting impeachment. Thats obstruction of justice. When we look at the last two itch peoplements, obstruction of justice, even if not criminally technically proven can be an element of impeachment and one thing we know from the constitution, the president cannot stop an impeachment. And it is interesting that donald trump one of his many tweets in his tweet storm this morning at 4 45 a. M. Was whi whileiwhile all agree the u. S. President has the complete power to pardon, why think of the leaks, fake news. I want to go with everybody and start with sarah, the weird time line and maybe its weird to me, maybe my brain is weird. The Washington Post story last night said one official said that sessions who testified that he has no recollection of an april encounter with kislyak has provided misleading statements that are contradicted by their evidence, a former official said the intelligence indicates sessions and kislyak had substantive discussions on matters including trumps positions on russia related issues and prospects for u. S. russia relations in a Trump Administration. So that contradicts sessions saying he didnt talk about policy. Here is Jeff Sessions on june 13th, giving testimony about his russia contacts. Take a listen. Clearly, colleagues, i have never met with or had any conversation with any russians or any foreign officials concerning any type of interference with any campaign or election in the United States. Okay. Now one day before that, interestingly enough, this is senator al franken, and al franken sits on the Judiciary Committee which sessions testified in front of, to get the job, in which al franken said that he misled al franken, when he answered a question as franken said he didnt even ask that franken asked him have you had any contact with russians and sessions volunteered that he never talked to any russians about impacting the election, about interference in the election, but here is senator franken talking about that with our very own Chris Matthews this is the day before the sessions testimony you just heard. Theyll be asking the attorney general about some of his testimony during his confirmation hearing i imagine, and which he actually answered, he didnt answer a question i asked. He answered a different question that he made up, and that was did you meet with any russians, and he said something that wasnt accurate. Theyve intercepted some contacts within kislyak and his people. Kislyak may have been exaggerating the meeting, you know, because he wanted to look important. That sounds, sarah, almost exactly like the Washington Post report including the fact the Washington Post supposedly had this story in june and only came out with it last night. What do you make of that, that franken was saying back in june, theyve intercepted some contacts with kislyak, he may have been exaggerating the meeting. Yes, i certainly think thats possible, and you know, one thing that id like to stress here is that none of this information about Jeff Sessions is new, not the meetings with kislyak, not his work and meetings with russian officials which he did over the entire Campaign Last year when he was first hired in march 2016, despite having no experience in that arena. Theres been reason to dismiss Jeff Sessions for a long time. We know that he lied on his sf86 security clearance forms. We know that now that he likely committed perjury and we know about this meeting with kislyak, so when trump is possibly trying to set up some sort of pretext, as if he actually cares about the legal process, and views sessions as anything more than his personal attorney, which is basically what sessions has been, sessions was put there not to uphold the u. S. Constitution but to uphold donald trump. I find that implausible. The aim might be to get rid of mueller that sessions is an obstacle in this respect but trumps claims that hes upset about sessions recusal just strikes me as false because sessions never acted on that recus recusal. He didnt honor it in practice. He fired comey despite the fact that violates the terms that he was given. So all of this is a bit suspect, and i think one of the questions to ask is why is trump bothering . He usually likes to flaunt the law. He usually likes to act as if hes above it and let everybody know that thats the way he feels. So its interesting that theyre creating this kind of elaborate theatrical facade with the media and also blaming the media in the process. It is interesting, because if there are reasons to dismiss sessions, okay, but dismissing sessions would open the door to dismissing mueller. Its all very odd and interesting. Dismissing mueller and also dismissing kushner. Another thing to note is that other people in the administration have committed the exact same crimes as Jeff Sessions, so if hes going to be dismissed for meeting with kislyak, so should kushner and others who committed perjury or lied or had other meetings with russian officials that they shouldnt have had. This opens up the door to a lot of problems for trump. A long list of people they could dismiss if thats the reason to do it. Malcolm and paul will be back. Aris brand new show the beat with ari melber premieres monday, 6 00 p. M. On msnbc. Watch it while youre eating your dinner and waiting for the rest of the nights incredibly disturbing breaks news. Donald trump is commissioning the uss gerald ford today. The navys newest aircraft carrier. If he says anything newsworthy well bring that to you right away. Up next, trump draws a red line. Stay with us. T. But every one of those businesses will need legal help as they age and grow. Whether it be with customer contracts, agreements to lease a space or protecting your work. Legalzooms network of attorneys can help you, every step of the way. So you can focus on what you do and well handle the legal stuff that comes up along the way. Legalzoom. Legal help is here. For years, centurylink has been promising fast internet to small businesses. But for many businesses, its out of reach. Why promise something you cant deliver . Comcast business is different. We deliver superfast internet with speeds of 250 megabits per second across our entire network, to more companies, in more locations, than centurylink. We do business where you do business. I love the president , and the president is a very, very effective communicator. The president has really good karma, okay, and the world turns back to him. Hes genuinely a wonderful human being. We got closer during the romney campaign, where we did a couple of fundraisers in his magnificent apartment. Ive seen this guy throw a dead spiral through a tire. Ive seen him at Madison Square garden with a top coat on standing in the key and hitting foul shots and swishing them. He sinks threefoot putts. I love the president and i think a lot of you guys know in the media ive been very, very loyal to him. You saw the newest member of trump world Incoming White HouseCommunications DirectorAnthony Scaramucci. Apparently his nickname is the mucc. But the White House Team wasnt the only big reshuffle. The legal Team Spokesman mark caryo resigned and longterm attorney mark kaswitz reported to take on a lesser role. John dowd veteran d. C. Criminal defense lawyer will take the lead amid these shakeups theres one big question in washington, is trump working on another pink slip for special counsel Robert Mueller after trump said mueller investigating his Family Finances would be a red line. Both the New York Times and the Washington Post reported that team trump is investigating the investigator, looking for dirt that could discredit the extremely well respected mueller, and perhaps open the do are to his firing. The president was especially disturbed when he found out muleler have access to, wait for it, his tax returns. Malcolm nance is back, David Kay Johnson is back, all sorts of things in the prompter the making of donald trump is also his book. Lets bring everybody back in. Malcolm first before we talk about this red line, there was a point you wanted to make in the previous segment about that weird timing of the Washington Post bombshell about sessions. This story as it was heard in the washington rumor mill has been out there for a very long time and the post had this story. We heard al franken mention it. Right, maybe as far back as march. Interesting thats the sort of top secret atomic bomb information you would want three solid sources on who all verify it and maybe the post didnt have that, maybe it was sitting on it because they couldnt get verified but if you get a call from a Current Administration official, day after, you know, you put your hit out, the story goes out and now it does the bidding of the white house. This can only benefit the white house. It does not benefit anybody and puts a line towards mueller. It puts a line toward mueller and thats i think where we come in, David Kay Johnson. This was donald trump in the New York Times interview where he expressed no confidence in sessions, and the other bombshell was this, about Robert Muellers investigation. So david, trump says this is about russia, as his personal finances are not about russia. Is donald trump wrong about that . Well his finances are about russia. Donald has been going to russia and doing business with russians since the 1980s, there are deals that dont appear to make any commercial sense whatsoever involving the russian, theres the ongoing effort by trump to suppress and prevent trial on the allegations involving the Trump Soho Hotel and whether it was a big tax fraud, the money, the profits disappeared into an Icelandic Bank under the thumb of the oligarchs, an