Interviews with political figures and news updates. Lets take a look. This whole thing about flipping, they call it. I know all about flipping, for 30, 40 years, ive been watching flippers. It almost ought to be outlawed, its not fair. If somebody defrauded a bank and hes going to get ten years in jail or 20 years in jail but if you can Say Something bad about donald trump and youll go down to two years or three years which is the deal he made, in all fairness to him, most people are going to do that. And ive seen it many times. Ive had many friends involved in this stuff. Its called flipping and it almost ought to be illegal. It almost ought to be illegal, barbara . What is that telling you as a former prosecutor . I think its an appalling statement. He calls it flipping. I call it telling the truth. When someone has information about criminal liability and they want to plead guilty, if they want to go under oath and tell the truth they get something in chanexchange for t. Thats how our entire statement
trustees as well as the president of that foundation. And it certainly teams from these filings, barbara, that the charity was using money to help the campaign. Thats the allegation, at least, that the charity was being used almost as a slush fund. And there are irs issues involved. Do i have this correctly . You do. And if those allegations pan out, that is not only a civil case as is currently filed but could also be criminally culpable. Not only the tax charges, but there can also be a fraudulent aspect to it. It reminds me of a case we charged in detroit against the former mayor of detroit who had a civic fund. He attracted donations because the civic fund was supposed to be for the good of the people of detroit. Yet he spent it on personal expenses, lavish vacations, yoga classes, golf clubs and the like. In that case we used a theory of bank fraud in addition to tax violations. It looks like the same allegations here, a very serious
crime if that can be proved. Kristen, is the white house focused on this . Is there any alarm bells going off . This is the first instance weve. A legal question, civil yet at this stage, against the Adult Children of donald trump. Well, ive been talking to officials here, andrea, but that. And all of the other controversies that have erupted this week, frankly. Theyve been downplaying all of this, not commenting on the record, certainly, about those new revelations about the trump organization. The broader thinking here within the administration is, look, President Trump has not erupted yet. Yes, he has lashed out on twitter. But you saw him ignore shouted questions. He was pretty disciplined during that Campaign Event in West Virginia. Yet some of his allies are bracing for what theyve described as a potential meltdown. Weve seen this happen in the past. Theyre concerned about the split screen this week of Michael Cohen and Paul Manafort and then these new revelations
strongly signaling at least they feel, if they dont have insider information, that a pardon is likely. On the legal risk here, though, that his Legal Advisers would raise, is that if you pardon someone during an ongoing investigation, that could look like Obstruction Of Justice or trying to interfere with an ongoing investigation. But at the same time, the president s lawyers are making a case that the president Cannot Obstruct justice, that he has the president ial power under article ii to pardon whoever he wants at whichever time he pleases, and they also make the case that he could pardon Paul Manafort tomorrow and it would not be Obstruction Of Justice. Barbara, do you want to weigh in on that . Yeah, i think that he is sort of sending messages to Paul Manafort to stand strong. Paul manafort is at a stage right now where he has to make a serious decision about cooperation. This is a Perfect Moment for Paul Manafort to decide to cooperate. Its a very critical time. President trump senses that, hes praising him for standing strong and saying all these
favorable things i think in it hopes that Paul Manafort will continue to stand strong. I dont think hell pardon him now, i think hell wait until later when perhaps the dust has settled a little bit. To do it now i think does scream of potential Obstruction Of Justice. If he does it for a corrupt purpose. A pardon is supposed to be given as a sign of mercy and forgiveness that you have atoned for your crimes and gotten on with your life. To do it at this point really would suggest that he is just trying to prevent Paul Manafort from cooperating against him. And of course it would not protect the president against Manafort Being forced to testify to a grand jury because he could no longer take the fifth amendment against selfincrimination. Let me also play for you what one of the jurors, one juror has so far spoken out about what was hanging them up in that manafort jury. And as someone, barbara, who was in the courtroom for so many days, this must be fascinating to watch. Take a look. How close, i want to know, did this jury come to convictingPaul Manafort on all 18 counts . By one. There was one holdout. What was their reasoning, if they shared it with you . Reasonable doubt. The person, a female juror, was we all tried to convince her to look at the paper trail. We laid it out in front of her. Again and again. And she still said that she had a reasonable doubt. And thats the way the jury worked. Barbara, youve dealt with juries for years and years. This is a classic case. Yeah, it happens from time to time. You know, some people she said that the reason was reasonable doubt. Some people get an unrealistic expectation of what reasonable doubt means. The judge will instruct its not beyond all doubt or shadow of a doubt, but reasonable doubt, thats doubt based on reason and common sense. Some have an axe to grind. Some dont like the prosecutors. Some think the defendant is being railroaded. Its a power that jurors have. In fact the rules of evidence really prohibit the court from inquiring into what people said in the jury room, because it is really sacrosanct, what they say there. Theyre entitled to that power and to those candid conversations. And so a jury has that power. It is frustrating. I watched the trial, i thought that if i had been on that jury, i would have very easily found guilt beyond a reasonable doubt of all of the counts. It sounds like 11 of the other jurors did the same. But thats a reality, and it does happen from time to time. Does it influence the way they prepare for the next trial coming up, assuming that trial proceeds as scheduled . Yeah, what i used to tell my people is, dont learn the lesson too well. You had an Outlier Juror here, you convinced 11. I think it will give them some pause. Theres also been some criticism about how the jury reacted to rick gates so i think they will think twice about whether they need to call him, if they dont really need to call him, maybe they dont, because it appeared they didnt like him either. They can certainly learn some lessons from what happened with this jury but i think they shouldnt the learn the lesson too well because this one juror sounds like she was a bit of an outlier. Thanks, barbara, shannon, and kristen, for starting us off today. Coming up, the top democrat on House Oversight wanting Michael Cohen now to testify before his committee. Ill talk to congressman Elijah Cummings, next. Youre watching Andrea Mitchell reports on msnbc. Ng you should know. Theres a serious virus out there that 1 in 30 boomers has, yet most dont even know it. A virus thats been almost forgotten. Its hepatitis c. Hep c can hide in the body for years without symptoms. Left untreated it can lead to liver damage, even liver cancer. The only way to know if you have hep c is to ask your Healthcare Provider for the simple blood test. If you have hep c, it can be cured. For us, its time to get tested. Its the only way to know for sure. And back pain made it hard to sleep and get up on time. Then i found aleve pm. The only one to combine a safe sleep aid, plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. Im back. Aleve pm for a better am. He was a lawyer for me for one of many. They always say the lawyer and then they like to add the fixer. I dont know about fixer, i dont know where that term came from. He didnt do big deals, he did small deals, not somebody that was with me that much. They make it sound like i didnt live without him. I understood Michael Cohen very well. He what turned out, he wasnt a very good lawyer. Michael cohen, who . My personal lawyer . The president trying to downplay his relationship with the man known in new york circles as his long time fixer, who was seen walking down manhattan streets today, briefly chatting with reporters and a few supporters, telling them hes going for a long walk. Maryland congressman Elijah Cummings joins me now, congressman, great to see you. I understand you want to talk to Michael Cohen, you want him to testify. Yes, i do. And i want him to do it sooner
rather than later. Andrea, i think that the American People deserve to hear Michael Cohen. Hes just accused the president of the United States of crimes, two, as a matter of fact, and two serious crimes. In fairness to the president and in fairness to the American People, we want to bring him in to our committee so that he can tell us what the president knew, when he knew it. And it sounds, from listening to his lawyer, lanny davis, that he has a lot to talk about. And we have to keep in mind that we are a coequal branch of government, and we have a duty to look for fraud, waste, and abuse. And in order for us to do our job, we have to have information. And hopefully by mr. Cohen coming in, testifying before the American People and the
congress, well be able to do that. Have you talked to trey gowdy or anyone else on the republican side about trying to get him in . Well, ive read from a spokesperson for trey gowdy, he said that our committee would not do it because we dont investigate criminal activity. Well, thats simply not accurate. We do, have done it in the past. And we im sure will do it again. But the fact is that the republicans, andrea, have done everything in their power to wall off President Trump. And since chairman gowdy has been chairman, he has not issued one single subpoena to the white house. Not one. And democrats have requested those subpoenas but hes failed
to do so. It doesnt surprise me, but well keep pushing, because thats our job. Thats what were supposed to do. Democrats have been notably divided as to whether impeachment is politically advantageous or disadvantageous before the midterms to even be raising this question. This is what the president said in part of that interview on fox. If the democrats take back power, do you believe they will try to impeach you . Well, you know, i guess its Something Like high crimes and all. I dont know how you can impeach somebody who has done a great job. Ill tell you what, if i ever got impeached, i think the market would crash. I think everybody would be very poor. And your reaction to that . Well, i would say it shocks the conscience but it doesnt. Its become normal type of language from the president. The fact is that we need to let
mueller, counsel mueller, finish his job. And hes been doing a pretty good job, from what i can see. And he will finish it, im sure, fairly soon. And we need to get more information with regard to what has happened here. The president has told us that lies are the truth and that truth are lies. So we cannot depend on his word. And so thats why we have to bring in people, put them under oath, and ask them exactly what happened. And im hoping that the republicans will put their country over their party, and their country over their elections, and do the right thing and work with us to simply gather the information that we need to do what we have been sworn to do. What about the whole issue of i think that we need to get the information. Im telling you, i just find it phenomenal that we could have someone like mr. Cohen, the personal lawyer for donald trump, no matter what the president says, who will come in and testify under oath in Federal Court that the president directed him to commit crimes, and then the republicans sit around and act like nothing big happened. This is major stuff. And so, you know, at some point i wonder, as the voters go out, theyre going to make their decisions. At some point, if youre not going to do your job, you forfeit your right to do the job. And so im just hoping that ryan and mccarthy and mcconnell will step up to the plate and say
something to bring and help us bring all of this together so that we can begin to effectively and efficiently address this question. And what about all of these hints, praise for Paul Manafort, do you think hes considering a pardon . And what if he pardons him now before they even get to the second trial . I think that i do believe that the president is probably trying to send a message to mr. Manafort. But i think it would be a major, major problem if he were to pardon mr. Manafort right now while an investigation is ongoing. And i think mueller would take a look at that and probably would raise some questions as to whether or not there was Obstruction Of Justice here. Thank you very much, Elijah Cummings. Thanks for being with us today. Coming up, school supplies. Education secretary betsy devos plan to allow schools to arm
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