The dni and the rest of the National Security establishment . A question a lot of people are asking this hour. Were going to take you through the much balihooed memo release, what it means for the russia investigation and discuss potential resignations or firings of senior d. O. J. Or fbi leadership. Lets get right to it with our experts. Jeremy bash, former Chief Of Staff at both the cia and pentagon. Now an msnbc National Security analyst. Matt miller, former chief spokesman for the Justice Department in the Obama Administration, now an msnbc justice and security analyst. Chuck rosenberg, a former u. S. Attorney who has worked on the staffs of both Robert Mueller and james comey at the fbi and is now an msnbc contributor. And with us onset, nbcs ken delanian and republican strategist Steve Schmidt. Jeremy bash, let me start with you on this idea that carter
page, who we know was first surveilled in 2013, at least two to three years before he ended up in the trump orbit and years before the steele dossier ever existed, just talk about carter page being in the center of a big, big political distraction, a movement to smear the fbi which may have the effect of creating a smoke screen so he can do what he really wants to do, which is to get rid of the guy overseeing the Mueller Probe. I think it is important to call it, we all remember that the Mueller Investigation really had its origins in july of 2016 when after papadopoulos was basically approached by russian intelligence handlers, the investigation, the Counter Intelligence investigation of the Trump Campaign kicked off. So, the fact that a Fisa Application was made in october 2016 shows that that application was not the basis for the Mueller Investigation. I think its important also to note, nicolle, that this memo released today by nunes is totally incomplete. It cherry picks all kinds of information. It doesnt say what other information the fisa court relied on. So, Steve Schmidt, how stupid are they . Do any of them read what they just revealed im sorry if im getting this wrong. They just revealed the Trump Campaign hired an agent of a foreign power as their senior Foreign Policy advisor to the president s campaign. They sure did. Look, i dont think thats what happens when you rely on devin nunes as your strategist, i guess. When you saw the president earlier in the oval office, what he did essentially was toss up a serve like a volleyball out over the net, which will now be spun into all manner of Conspiracy Theories a ball or a bomb . By the right wing media that will spin off in a hundred different directions. All of this and i think its much less important to focus on whats in the memo than it is to focus on the intent of the memo. Right. The intent of the memo is to sow confusion and chaos around the material facts of the russia investigation, which is, did somebody or peoples on the Trump Campaign, maybe with the knowledge of the president , maybe without, well find out, collude with intelligence
carter page and tell all of us that he was known to have been under surveillance under these very high standards that jeremy and chuck have spoken to since 2013. So lets go through some of the substance of the memo, because i think they could have used a press person like you or me to help them. It doesnt look like it got fact checked. So the memo alleges this was written by the nunes staff in close contact, im told, with the trump white house. The memo alleges that a dossier compiled on trump by Christopher Steele was the key part of information to show the fisa court to gain approval for surveillance of carter page. Now, its my understanding that it was just one of many streams that a fisa warrant is not granted based on a single piece of evidence from anyone, and that lots of streams of evidence if youre dealing with informants, many of them have questions about credibility, but thats why the court takes all that into consideration. And this would have been a fraction of the information they looked at. Yeah, i think thats exactly right, nicolle. One of the things about this memo thats incredible is not only is it misleading because of what it leaves out, for example, other evidence that we know from
other reporting the Department Of Justice submitted to the fisa court. Even in the substance of the memo that it includes, in several cases it gets facts wrong or mischaracterizes them. For example, you know, it makes a claim about andy mccabe saying that without the steele dossier, this Fisa Application never would have been approved. Adam schiff is already out saying thats not what director mccabe said. I think its interesting the memo doesnt quote him. It describes what he said. If they actually if he actually said it you would have seen a direct quote from him. It mischaracterizes something that jim comey said saying that he described the dossier as salacious and unverified when in fact when he said that in congressional testimony, he was talking just about the most salacious piece of the dossier. Right. I think you know what im referring to. Right. All of the money, not the sex. Were talking about the sex. Yeah i dont know. Thats exactly right. It is a sloppy document, even in the part that it includes, let alone what it leaves out. But i think that does get you back to this point that Steve Schmidt was raising which is its not compelling in the real world. Its not factual and substantive in the real world. But that doesnt mean it wont achieve its purpose in the right wing conservative world. In Donald Trumps mind does this give him the political space to move on Rod Rosenstein, to move on the underlying investigation as he seems to want to do. All right. So let me give you another piece of this, ken dilanian. It also, the memo released today declassified by the president over the objections of the director of the fbi who had grave concerns, also alleges that information to the court did not reveal that the fusion gps generated dossier was financed by the dnc and the Clinton Campaign. Now, the truth is that the original Fusion Gps Contract was under big republican donor paul singer, and it was i think an intermediary, a conservative website, the free beacon. I understand Christopher Steele wasnt involved until the Fusion Gps Contract had been taken over by the Clinton Campaign. But even in what would seem like their strongest point, they dont really stick to the facts. And there is a dispute about it because what democrats seem to be suggesting is that it was disclosed, it was funded by political opponents of donald trump, just not named Hillary Clinton or the democrats. Under the rules they dont name people. That could be an example of where this is deeply misleading, because analysts have said as long as they said this is information thats coming from people who dont like donald trump, theyre covered there. But just stepping back, look, as a journalist i found this to be deeply disappointing because its essentially a bust. Because it does not speak to the central issue, which is the Mueller Investigation. It doesnt explain how carter page fits in at all to the Mueller Investigation. And also dont forget, republicans were suggesting this was essentially the fruits of the poisonous tree, right . If the steele dossier got the whole thing started, then the Mueller Investigation is invalid. But this memo disproves that. As jeremy said, it shows the investigations are months before and was related to the papadopoulos, that had nothing to do with the steele dossier. That is in there to the last paragraph and in a snarky way, tried to suggest pete strzok was in there and how that was improper. It goes on and on about carter page but doesnt explain how carter page is relevant to the overall investigation. Jeremy, what this seems to do, no matter what he did in the hotel room in russia, they have a list of names that i think donald trump has actually fired everybody on it except Rod Rosenstein. So just reaffirms their bias against the people that donald trump rails on. But to the 67 of americans who are either deep skeptics of his presidency who are wondering what hes up to, it is Proof Positive that he had someone who was known by Counter Intelligence agencies to be an agent of a foreign power on his campaign. He brought him in or he was planted in that campaign. And i remember the first time you posited that, i burst out laughing. I said, what are you talking
about . Youve now got manafort who was Doing Business with proputin oligarchs. Youve got carter page who since 2013 has been surveilled as part of our Counter Intelligence efforts to protect this country. And youve got a memo with basically a trump enemys list, and what makes them all enemies is they found out about it. Yeah, maybe ill state it in a little plainer way, nicolle. Four times a federal court found that Donald TrumpsForeign Policy advisor was a russian spy. And so if you just think about that, it shows you how irresponsible the Trump Campaign was even at vetting its own people. And i just want to hammer this point home. Revealing this memo today is dangerous. It undermines the work of the fbi. It telegraphs precisely to the Russian Federation, i guarantee you this memo will be translated in russian within a matter of minutes, telegraphs exactly to them how we undertake Fisa Applications, whats involved in them, who approves them, the dates of this one. This is very damaging to our
counterintelligence efforts. And, Chuck Rosenberg, thats how it was explained to me by a former top official in Intelligence Agencies in democratic and republican administrations. He said that revealing sources and methods is bad, that revealing and showing the machinations of one of our most effective tools is something far worse. That this really shows our hand. I want to get you to respond to that, but i want to ask you Something Else. On the dossier, it seems to me that the way trumps allies will use this is to make it about the dossier. But the truth about the dossier is that about a third of it has borne out. About a third of it is still being investigated. And about a third of it is, you know, the more salacious things that i think the fbi or anyone investigating or mueller, whoever is looking at it, would want to corroborate with multiple sources. But not one thing has been disproven. Uhhuh, thats right. And maybe i can give you a criminal context to this because if i was a federal prosecutor for a long time. Nicolle, if we could draw for our pool of informants only from nuns and librarians, that would be awesome. Thats not the way the world works. So who knows bad stuff in drug cases or gun cases and Bank Robberies . It tends to be other criminals. Informants come in all shapes and sizes. They often have motives or biases. Thats not unusual. In federal judges who review these affidavits know that. Now, if you really want us to assess the affidavit, then you can either give us all of the underlying materials and we can read it, or you can give us sort of a onesided memo that looks like it was written by an under achieving first year law student. And so this is not the way we should be trying to determine whether what was presented to a federal judge was adequate or
not. This just misses the mark. And as you point out, its quite dangerous. It harms our National Security mission. Matt miller, you wrote an oped. This is the most inappropriate action since the comey firing. At president trumps decision to release House Intel Committee devin nuness memo alleging wrongdoing at the Justice Department combined with his illadvised decision, represents the most unethical and potentially legal action hes taken since he fired fbi director james comey. And like the comey decision it may now feature prominently in the Obstruction Of Justice investigation dogging trumps white house. Michael schmidt of the New York Times made a similar point last night. We know that bob mueller is looking very closely at Donald Trumps conduct in office. Youd think that if the top Law Enforcement official warns you against doing something, that you might take that under consideration. No . Yeah, thats right. I mean, look, every time i should put it this way. Weve seen a pattern of donald trump having really inappropriate interactions with senior federal Law Enforcement officials, with the Attorney General, with the Deputy Attorney general, with the current fbi director, the former fbi director, the former fbi
deputy director. You can go down the list. And what matters is his motive when he has these interactions. And here with the release of this memo, we know what his motives are because hes been clear about it. Hes telegraphed publicly and he said to a number of aides privately that he wanted this memo released because he sees it as a pretext to move on Rod Rosenstein potentially to fire him. We dont know if hell do it or not. Again, thats clearly what he hopes to accomplish doing this. I think authorizing the public release of the memo, hes probably safe. It was served up to him in an official process from congress. But its his intervention with the Justice Department. Its him sending his Chief Of Staff to really berate the Attorney General for his involvement, to berate the Deputy Attorney general for opposing the release of this memo. You see again another inappropriate interaction that it wouldnt surprise me if bob mueller looks at. All right. No one is going anywhere. When we come back, doing putins bidding. Thats how one u. S. Senator describes the memo released to raising concerns about threats
to fire mueller. And postmemo National Security in the time of trump, when a grave warning from the nations top Law Enforcement official is overruled by trump political allies, where does that leave the country when faced with real threats . Next time, i want you on my bowling team. [ laughs ] rodney. Bowling. Classic. Can i help you . Its me. Jamie. Im not good with names. Celeste i trained you. We share a locker. Moose man yo. He gets two name your price tools. He gets two . I literally coined the phrase, we give you Coverage Options based on your budget. Thats me. Jamie yeah. Youre back from italy. [ both smooch ] ciao bella. Hes looking at me right now, isnt he . Yup. butch barks at man butch is like an old soul that just hates my guts. laughs vo you can never have too many faithful companions. Thats why i got a subaru crosstrek. Love is out there. Find it in a subaru crosstrek. For weeks its been no secret that the president wants to fire Rod Rosenstein and seize control of the investigation. The release of the nunes memo may have been a giant step toward that goal. Democratic leaders writing in a letter to the president today, quote, we are alarmed by reports you may intend to use this misleading document as a pretext to fire Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein in an effort to corruptly influence or impede special counsel bob muellers investigation. We write to inform you that we would consider such an unwarranted action as an attempt to obstruct justice in the russia investigation. Firing Rod Rosenstein, d. O. J. Leadership or bob mueller could result in a constitutional crisis the likes of which we have not seen since the saturday night massacre. Jeremy, matt, chuck, ken and steve are all here. Chuck, i want to start with you and ask you what would happen from a process and procedure standpoint. Does Rachel Grand Step if he
fired Rod Rosenstein, who would take over control of the Mueller Investigation and would that person have to be confirmed by the senate . He could make somebody else the president could make somebody else the acting Deputy Attorney general.