Eyebrows at the white house . Well, donald trump unexpectedly announcing a full pardon this morning for Dinesh Dsouza, a conservative commentator who pleaded guilty to Campaign Finance violations similar to the charges trumps former fixer Michael Cohen could be facing. He also hinted at more pardons to come for former stars of the apprentice, Martha Stewart and former illinois governor Rob Blagojevich blagojevich. Its not hard to connect the dots between them and the russia investigation. Martha stewart was prosecuted by none other than james comey. One of muellers star witnesses and blagojevich was prosecuted by comeys friend and current lawyer Pat Fitzgerald and is probably not a coincidence it all comes on the heels of that damning report from the times detailing andy mccabes account of the comey firing. The times writes, quote, mr. Mccabe described a conversation at the Justice Department with the Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein in the chaotic days last may after mr. Comeys abrupt firing. Mr. Rosenstein played a key role in the dismissal, writing a memo that rebuked mr. Comey over his handling of an investigation into Hillary Clinton, but in the meeting at the Justice Department, mr. Rosenstein added a new detail. He said the president had originally asked him to reference russia in his memo. To mr. Mccabe that seemed like possible evidence that mr. Comeys firing was actually related to the fbis investigation into the trump campaigns ties to russia. And that mr. Rosenstein helped provide a cover story by writing about the clinton investigation. Trump lashed out on twitter this morning writing, quote, not that it matters, but i never fired james comey because of russia. The corrupt Mainstream Media loves to keep pushing that narrative, but they know it isnt true. But its not just the media pushing the narrative, mr. President , its you. Regardless of recommendation, i was going to fire comey knowing there was no good time to do it. And in fact, when i decided to just do it, i said to myself, i said, you know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a madeup story. With us from the New York Times, justice reporter matt apuzzo who broke that story last night and from the Washington Post phil rucker also former u. S. Attorney law professor at the university of alabama, joyce vance and former fbi assistant director for Counter Intelligence frank figliuzzi, all msnbc analysts, four of my favorite people on the planet. Matt apuzzo, take me inside this story. So, we know jim comey kept memos. You have the first account ive seen a memo that andy mccabe took because he was concerned that there was a russia connection, and the president revealed it in his own interviews days later. Yeah, memos for everyone. It was a crazy time last may, right . The president had just fired jim comey and for 24 hours we get a steady diet of, here, everybody look at this Rod Rosenstein memo. Thats why we fired him. It was because he was unfair to Hillary Clinton and because he didnt follow d. O. J. Rules about talking publicly about ongoing investigations. Thats why we fired him. And then, of course, he does the lester holt interview, the president does the lester holt interview and says, russia was on my mind. He goes into the oval office and tells the russians comey is a nutjob, i face great pressure because of russia and thats been taken off. Then Rod Rosenstein says in a roomful of Justice Department officials and andy mccabe, weirdly at the beginning the president wanted me to mention russia. So you can see why to mccabe, as hes trying to figure out what the heck is going on, hes thinking, well, gees, it sounds a lot like the president might not have actually fired jim comey because of the clinton investigation. And you take that memo because youre trying to get to the bottom of why and that is still a question they are trying to figure out, why did the president actually fire jim comey. And that is at the center, matt apuzzo, of the investigation to whether or not the president obstructed justice. I want to read a couple more pulls from your piece. Id love to read the whole thing but, you know, weve only got an hour. So, you write dont do it to your readers. Subscribe to the times, and everyone should read it themselves. So, mccabes memo, one of several that he wrote, highlights a conflicting roles that rosenstein plays in the case. He supervises the special counsel investigation and is told colleagues that protecting it is among his highest priorities. Many current and former Law Enforcement officials are suspicious of some of his other actions, including allowing some of mr. Trumps congressional allies to view crucial documents from the investigation. I dont think we talk enougher because everything has become so relative about how rosenstein is almost a bad good guy or good bad guy, depending how you look at it. Hes protected i think from democrats and republicans in terms of all the skirmishes that are around this investigation, because hes viewed as protecting mueller. But hes actually ceded a lot of ground to the nutty est guys in the House Freedom caucus doing the president s bidding on the russia probe. Yeah, matt miller, former Justice Department official who i believe he was on your show, has said hes got concerns and he wrote an oped in the post about this. Hes got concerns, rod is a principled guy, hes trying to protect mueller. But if you compromise the Justice Departments core values and you compromise the investigation by giving out information about muellers investigation to the president s allies in the middle of an investigation, how much are you how much are you really helping protect mueller . And if you come premipromise on core values, what do you have left . Rosenstein is trying to walk this line. Protecting mueller is key, but obviously you can only do that if you keep your job and you can only keep your job with this president if you walk that line. Joyce vance, is he walking that line in a way that is compromising this investigation . If were to believe andy mccabes memos and ive never seen any evidence andy mccabe took memos that have been called into question. They were usually contemporaneous notes of Justice Department meetings. Has rosenstein crossed any lines, in your mind . I think its very hard to assess Rod Rosenstein on the basis of the publicly available information. Some things that people who have worked with him as i did know about him is that hes a straight arrow. He believes in d. O. J. As an institution, and hes an institution protector and a rule follower. So, it seems very likely to me, at least, that rosenstein is trying in a very difficult situation to walk a very narrow tightrope without falling off because he believes if he falls off it would damage the Mueller Investigation. As far as andy mccabes memo goes, its disturbing. One detail that im not clear on is precisely what trump asked rosenstein to insert into the memo about russia. Were looking at it now with hindsight, of course. This all happened back in march, april, may of 2017 when these issues were less clear. So, id like to understand a little bit more about whats going on so we can put all of this into perspective. And, frank figliuzzi, lets isolate that, what joyce is talking about. Heres what matt apuzzo and his colleagues have reported. Mr. Rosenstein added a new detail in this meeting that matt covers. He said the president had originally asked him to reference russia in his memo, the people familiar with the conversation said. Mr. Rosenstein did not elaborate on what mr. Trump had wanted him to say, but we do know, frank figliuzzi, that the president had asked his chief of staff, then chief of staff reince priebus, to have a whole bunch of Officials Say the president wasnt under investigation. They were actually asked about that request in congressional testimony. He wanted pompeo to say that the president was not under investigation. He wanted comey to say he wasnt under investigation. He wanted i believe coates to say he wasnt upped investigation. He wanted rogers to say he wasnt under investigation. We know all these people are witnesses in the Mueller Probe. How does this story fit into that fact pattern . Well, there are a couple interesting observations here. First you need to establish intent to have an obstruction case. Intent isnt some magical thing where you pry someones head open and say, there it is, there is intent. You need a litany of evidence, preponderance of the evidence. If youre going criminal, you need evidence beyond all reasonable doubt. You start stacking up the witnesses as you said and literally all these people become fact witnesses as to what was said to them, what their impression was and what the president s intent was. The interesting twist here is rod roysenstein becomes a potential fact witness while hes overseeing the investigation of obstruction. So, this becomes very, very complicated. My gut tells me that rosensteins trying to do the right thing. He is literally between the proverbial rock and hard place. I think hes trying to eke out the end of the special counsel investigation, keep it alive, and trying to keep lots of people happy at the same time. But this is an interesting twist today, nicolle, and wloehether not rosenstein took russia out of the firing reasons for comey because he thought trump would get in trouble or whether he truly believed there was other valid reason to fire comey, we dont know yet. Fil phil rucker, i want your thoughts i watch you on the briefings. We dont know if there is a cause and effect, interestingly after two giant pieces of the obstruction of justice coming to focus, the president today, i dont know if he spins a dial on who is looking for a pardon, he picked Dinesh Dsouza and pardoned him. I dont know if theyre setting up a hot line 1800pardon me, hes getting comfortable with his pardon power. Thats right, nicolle. The announcement came out of nowhere. There is actually sort of an ordinary process for pardons that begins at the Justice Department. There is an office of the pardon attorney and thousands of people will apply for a pardon there and that process makes its way to the white house and a president ial decision. But this president has made his pardon decisions personally and on his own and on his own timetable. Not through those normal channels. Thats why he pardoned Sheriff Joe Arpaio in arizona. Thats why he pardoned Scooter Libby and Dinesh Dsouza. It sent a message to the personal attorney and people ensnard, Like National security advisor mike flynn that this President Trump is willing to exercise his power of clemency to help out his friends and allies to prevent them from serving jail time or to pardon them after the fact. I talked to some people who are in trumps outer orbit who may become ensnared or are already witnesses in the Mueller Probe who said that that signal was received loudly and clearly today. But, joyce, does the very act theres been reporting from matt and his colleagues about john dowd, the president s former attorney, dangling pardons in front of mike flynn and other i believe at the time they were witnesses, they were charged and some pleaded guilty. Is the very act of dangling pardons, could that be construed as obstruction of justice by bob muellers investigators . You know, the president has this near absolute power to grant pardons. So he can do that. But weve seen in other aspects of this investigation that you can do something thats legal, you can for instance be Rod Blagojevich and select a new senator. But if you do it in exchange for a bribe, it becomes a crime. Were seeing a little bit of that here, too. You can go ahead and grant pardons, but if youre doing it to obstruct an investigation, then it can become evidence in that case and its a little bit like playing poker where you dont know whats in the other guys hand, but he draws a card and maybe it gives him a full house or maybe it gives him a royal flush. Here trump is tweeting and its like hes playing with mueller and doesnt realize it, and any one of these tweets could be completing muellers hand and giving him the evidence he needs for obstruction or perhaps hes already there. Matt, i want to come back to your piece in this question of rosenstein because we dont spend enough time, i dont think, asking questions about the possibilities. Is it possible that he has i dont know if the word witness but could he be a witness, could he have to share with mueller sort of all of his version of these events . Andy mccabe is also a witness. Could andy mccabe is bob mueller sitting on everything that was in your story today, and is this already of interest, do you think, to the special counsel that rosenstein has a role in all this in terms of creating the cover story that only held up until the president blew his own cover story with lester holt . Yeah, i have no doubt that bob mueller has a pretty clear picture of the comey firing through the lenses of all of the players, save for the president himself, and thats why the interview with the president is potentially so significant because you can draw inferences from all these people about what might have been in the president s head. But when youre getting to the quell of inat the point, thats why you want to hear from the person himself. We do know that the president gave Rod Rosenstein his draft firing letter of jim comey, and that mccabe actually got a copy of that draft from rosenstein and gave that draft to bob mueller along with copies of his memos. Should mention we have a sense of whats in one of these memos. Im told maybe theres a half dozen more. Obviously given the investigation and given the firing, you know, andy mccabe isnt on the interview circuit, but would obviously very much love to talk to him about whats in the other memos, right . Because we all would. He has a standing invitation. Half a dozen memos. Let me stay on this with you, frank figliuzzi. One more from matts great piece. He over sees an investigation to the president who points to mr. Rosensteins own actions as evidence that hes innocent. And mr. Rosenstein could have the final say whether that argument has merit. Could you speak to that . Is there any precedent for the person in charge of the investigation being one of the people who wrote the story that the president s lawyers, a person being investigated, is pointing to to prove their innocence . So, this is an im sure joyce will tell you. This is kind of a Worst Nightmare for a prosecutor. You do not want to become a fact witness and become the center of attention in these things. It is also bad for an fbi agent to do that. And often heres where i get really worried it leads to recusal and im not suggesting that rosenstein is going to recuse himself. What im concerned about is that the white house is going to say hes now super conflicted. He needs to go. Im concerned about that. I think that rosenstein is going to do the right thing. He is clearly going to have to be interviewed if he hasnt already by muellers team and now the fact that as matt said, hes given up a memo for use by andy mccabe is just complicating things even further. You cant make this stuff up. Let me get you in on the president s tweets on the topic. These stories you and your colleagues write always strike a nerve. He has his lead lawyer setting the tone, were going to collude obstruction. What is the view on obstruction of justice . I think the mood is allegation what it has been, which is there is some fear about it. They dont really know where mueller is headed. They certainly know a lot of the questions that mueller and his team have been asking white house officials and others around the president. But its sort of a dark hole at the moment and we know Rudy Giuliani has spent some time with the president this week here in washington trying to prepare him for a possible interview. The president wants to do that interview. Its really a matter of whether they can narrow the scope of those questions and see if the lawyers end upcoming on board. Theyre the ones who have been the most resistant to it. But in terms of obstruction of justice, i mean, people have seen this play out in the white house, but it also plays out in public view on twitter for all of us to see and so thats very clear. We hear a little bird tells me, phil rucker, you break into something, rash back and share it. Matt apuzzo, were grateful to have you and your writing. As much as he enjoyed his own reality tv show, could the power to pardon and the president willing to use it also be of interest to special Counsel Robert Mueller . Also ahead, it is complicated. Rosenstein is viewed as muellers protection. Could it cast comey in a brandnew light . And Donald Trumps war on Jeff Sessions. The hits keep coming. Storms by an Insurance Company that knows the weather down to the square block. This is a diamond tracked on a blockchain protected against fraud, theft and trafficking. This is a financial Transaction Secure from hacks and threats others cant see. 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