The idea of possibliy resigning. Whats unclear is how serious that was. Whether he said Something Like i am willing to resign if the president wants me to or whether he said i intend to resign and im going to do it on monday. We dont know the exact nature of those conversations. Eli, i want to hear about your reporting. I want to show our viewers what phil rucker is talking about. Lets watch. I have a message for the president tonight. Under zero circumstances should the president fire anybody. If you are laying a trap for donald trump, this might be exactly how youd do it. Okay, professor, what will President Trump do now . Well, if hes smart, hell take advantage of this and not fire either any of these people, not mueller, not rosenstein, and not sessions. So this is important point because i think a lot of people are really scared after the
rosensteins people to come out and say, he expects to be fired. His people were putting that out to what end, we dont know at this point but certainly today for all the claims the president having a really busy schedule. He was free today between 9 30 and 2 15. Almost two hours he spent at trump tower. He was on the phone with kelly and talking to rosenstein during that time. And this is a man who, as we know, for all the reputation that he loves to fire people, he doesnt like to do it in person. And so the idea that hes putting this off, he had this opportunity today while out of town. If he wanted to do it, didnt take it and then is going to go back thursday to washington and meet with him. Its impossible to predict what this president will and wont do. Based on precedent, we know he generally sh lly shies Away Frot Confrontation and firing people face to face. The substance of this got lost. The substance of the report that Rosenstein May or may not have offered to resign over was as early as may of 2017, 16 months
before the unanimous oped shows up in the new york times, a Cabinet Official was talking about invoking the 25th Amendment and bringing other Cabinet Officials along to that judgment. And offered to wear a wire to expose the chaos in the white house. He should have worn one today because the white house looked chaotic today. Back to the substance of this. The substance of What Rosenstein was reported to have been concerned about in may of 2017 lines up with the omarosa book. Lines up with the unanimous oped and every page of the Woodward Book and seems to be another pillar in this picture that from the inside, the Trump Presidency is much more alarming than what we see from the outside. That the substance of that report was three weeks into rosensteins time at Deputy Attorney general. He had exposure to him in two big instances. The dealings around the comey firing and the second was his dealings with the president when he sat in on all the interviews for potential fbi directors. If you read the story, one thing people missed in the substance of that story was the takeaway was that Rod Rosenstein was
really having a tough time. And whether he was serious or not in his remarks about the 25th Amendment, whether he was serious or not in his remarks about wearing the wire, he was a person in some ways a ship without port. Was not sure where to go. You worked in the Justice Department. I worked in the white house. I attended a lot of nsc meetings. We made jokes. You dont put in a memo, jokes. That is not a suggestion that a Deputy Attorney general who really is in control of the situation makes in a serious manner because its never going to happen. But i Dont Think He was joking. The takeaway is he was not in control of the situation at the time. Hes faced a few tests, more than any Deputy Attorney general in the history with the possible exception during watergate. He failed the first one when he wrote the comey memo. Eight days later, another one, and he passed when he appointed bob mueller. Hes facing the next big test. Will he step down quietly or if
trump really wants to get rid of him, will he make him fire him . Its a critical test for his legacy and independence of the Justice Department. It would be a massive step for him to step down voluntarily now. Talk to me about the idea of wearing a wire. Thats also in the report and if hes offered to resign or fired, that was also the substance of what that story revealed, that in the spring of 2017, in this period of time before mueller was appointed, when they were Interviewing Candidates for fbi director. Ive talked to some people who interviewed for that job. A couple pulled themselves out of contention. It was a chaotic time for this white house. He suggested that one of the candidates going in and wear a wire. Why would you do that . Prosecutors, fbi agents, cops, the only time they talk about wearing a wire is when its against a bad guy. So understand the gravity of the Deputy Attorney general of the United States actually verbalizing, even if in jest, the possibility that he might wear a wire against the president of the United States in the oval office. And what that means about the
viewers of all the bleep hes put up with. Hes got an entire House Republican caucus thats drafted in articles of impeachment for him. He faces abuse every time hes on capitol hill. Trying to release unredacted memos with State Secrets in them to protect President Trump from the russia probe. One scenario hes agreed to stay until muellers investigation is over and the two walk out arm in arm. That would be the best possible scenario that he actually allows this to be completed. I think what you saw here was an effort, a game of chicken, as one former u. S. Attorney said to me. An effort to get rosenstein to see if he could be bullied into resigning. To see if he would go quietly. When that was impossible, they backed off a little bit. And i think the reaction from capitol hill, from the media was sufficient to back them off. But this is a temporary stay of execution. And i think what all of us and what the commerngress has to st
thinking about is who would succeed mueller who would succeed rosenstein, excuse me. Would it go to the Solicitor General . Does he have conflicts . Thats noel francisco. But his Firm Jones Day represents donald trump in the russia investigation. Exactly. Sounds like a conflict to me. And there may be something directly on point, according to other ethical people who say like he cant do this. Then you drop down to olc. And goodness knows how far were going to go with this. But it is important to remember that somebody other than Jeff Sessions is going to be managing that mueller probe, unless the president fires the Attorney General and the republican senate, if there is one, confirms somebody new. Number one, i think the senate owes the country the obligation of saying we will not replace Jeff Sessions with a president ial pick until theMueller Investigation is complete. And number two, i think it behooves mr. Francisco to be very up front and clear about what his ethical obligations are. In that case, there will be a Career Individual in the Justice Department who is supervising the mueller probe. Rod rosensteins deputy, callahan is the political appointee. There are other names there. We have to watch that line of succession. I dont want to lose the thread on this. I want to bring phil and eli back on this. I want to remind everyone why rosenstein is such a trigger for the president and why most of the venom the president has unloaded, until recently about the russia investigation, he unloaded on rosenstein. He didnt name mueller until about eight, 12 weeks ago. And part of that was because rosenstein was the official who signed off on the raid of Michael Cohens offices. The president has tweeted about him, i am being investigated for firing the fbi director by the
man who told me to fire the fbi director. Witch hunt. The president has laid so much hate red for the Justice Department at the feed of rosenstein. Hes praised him for other things the doj has done. Its hard to follow. When the president is the angriest about where he is with the mueller probe, with sdny, he does come back to rosenstein. And he does grumble about it. He does tweet about it. And i think has felt boxed in because of the fact that he cant, or hasnt been able to feel like he can do whatever he wants to because of the political implications. When he expresses frustration, im the president , why cant i do this, a lot is directed at rosenstein and feeling boxed in. This is an interesting moment for him. Its an interesting moment to wonder if the congress, if democrats take over, should bring every Cabinet Secretary up to the hill and ask them to festify whether they think the 25th Amendment is necessary. Its the fifth account we know of the cabinet talking about the 25th Amendment. One guy isnt into the 25th
amendment. Thats mike pompeo. Lets watch that and talk about it on the other side. If you cant be on the team, if you arent supporting this mission, then maybe you ought to find Something Else to do. Ive told that to my senior colleagues and junior folks, we need everyone who is engaged in Helping AchievePresident Trumps mission. I hope that everyone in every agency, doj, fbi, state department, is on that mission. If you arent, you should take this time to go do something more productive. And i assume that talking about wiring the president , talking about the 25th Amendment is not being on the team. Not remotely. Is it possible that if you think hes cuckoo, its called being on team america, phil rucker . Well, what you just heard there from secretary pompeo is the prevailing view inside the white house. And at the senior ranks of the administration which is if you cant get on board with what this president is trying to do, then what are you doing in this job . But there are people with sort of Mission Critical assignments
like Rod Rosenstein overseeing the russia investigation who see it as their mission, their duty to the country to continue to do that work. Remember, its not an investigation into donald j. Trump personally. Its an investigation into a foreign government, in to russias attempt to interfere in the u. S. Election in 2016. To interfere in our democracy. And thats what the department of justice is trying to get to the bottom of with the Mueller Investigation. I think rosenstein sees it as his duty to stay in that role at the tip of the spear as long as he can to protect the integrity of the investigation. Frank, i worked in a white house for six years. Plenty of political problems, National Security challenges, criticized from the right and the left. Never one did i hear a joke about the 25th Amendment. I had to google it. Didnt know what it was until i started watching homeland last season. Always ahead of the curve in american politics. The 25th Amendment being
discussed. The Woodward Book, the omarosa book, unanimous oped and report friday about Rod Rosenstein. Should we start separating the cabinet secretaries, put them in categories of political stooges and Truth Tellers . Who goes in what category . Mattis and rosenstein belong in the truth teller category. 25 years in the federal government, 25 years in the fbi, lots of Gallous Humor and joking. Never once did anyone ever joke or mention the 25th Amendment involving the president or wiring up against the president , even in jest. And i have to tell you something first. Thats the first time ive heard the full clip from mike pompeo. He specifically mentioned the fbi. As somebody that, as a team that needs to fulfill the mission of the president , that is not the role of the fbi. And on a larger scale, as youre saying, when it comes to the 25th Amendment if you think the president is unable to fulfill his duties and powers, youre on team america. Whether or not thats part of the mission of the president. So, yes, indeed if the right people were in charge of congress, we would be having hearings. We would be getting Cabinet Members in a room alone and asking them whether or not he can fulfill his duties. And thats not going to happen under this congress. All right, phil rucker and frank figliuzzi, thanks for scaring me. The Saturday Night Massacre. Thats how the Ranking Member of the House Judiciary Committee describes the president s war on justice. Well get his reaction to the latest news about Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein. Also ahead the president doubles down on his Supreme Court nominee as new allegations emerge. And the midterm elections are shaping up to be a worst Case Scenario for republicans. New polling spells trouble for their chances of holding off a big blue wave. So i talked to my doctor about humira. I learned humira can help get, and keep Uc Under Control when other medications havent worked well enough. And it helps people achieve control that lasts. So you can experience few or no symptoms. Humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. Serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. Before treatment, get tested for tb. Tell your doctor if youve been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if youve had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flulike symptoms or sores. Dont start humira if you have an infection. Be there for you, and them. Ask your gastroenterologist about humira. With humira, control is possible. But will you fire Rod Rosenstein based on this treachery . I dont want to comment on it until i get all the facts. I havent gotten all the facts, but certainly its being looked at in terms of what took place, if anything took place. And ill make a determination some time later. But i dont have the facts. Rod rosensteins fate still hanging in the balance this hour. His critics bracing for a potential constitutional crisis. The top democrat on the Judiciary Committee saying weve been watching a slowmoving Saturday Night Massacre with donald trump firing comey and mccabe and his attacks on doj officials and special counsel mueller. If potus fires Rod Rosenstein, it would be a serious escalation in the case for obstruction of
justice. Joining us now is congressman jerry nadler and former u. S. Attorney Barbara Mcquade. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Are you worried . Are you scared . I am very worried. We have seen from this administration an attack on the institutions that we depend on to preserve our Constitutional Order and liberties, attacks on the press othe judiciary, on the fbi, attacks on the department of justice. And we know that there is massive russian interference in the last election. And theres a proper investigation of that to see what they did and who in the United States abeded it. And we know that theres been a that the president has persistently attacked that investigation. And its, as i said, its a slow motion Saturday Night Massacre start with his demanding loyalty from comey, then his firing
comey, firing mccabe. His attacks on the doj, attacks on individuals in the doj, his attacks on rosenstein, his attempts to fire sessions. His attacks on bruce orr who is a career person in the doj. His attacks on the fbi. This president is willing to subvert major american institutions in the service of himself. And rosenstein has been in charge of the Mueller Investigation, making sure that mueller has the wherewithal and the freedom to pursue the investigation where it leads, which is what this country needs. Im very concerned that if they fire rosenstein, theyll put in somebody who will, in fact, constrain the investigation and well not find out what we need to find out, and we will not be able to contain the damage to our