Removed from his post. The latest shakeup comes just days after the president with drew the nomination of another dhs official, acting i. C. E. Director von vitiello, who he tapped to lead the agency permanently. Before leaving to visit the border this past friday. Were going in a little different direction. Rons a good man, but were going in a tougher direction. We want to go in a tougher direction. Tougher direction. Tougher direction. And that desire reportedly led to nielsens departure the New York Times reports that the president called ms. Nielsen at home early in the mornings to demand she takes action to stop migrants from entering the country, including doing things that were clearly illegal, such as blocking migrants from seeking asylum. Nbc news reports nielsen and the president clashed on his desire to reinstate the policy of separating migrant families, extremely unpopular in this country, noting according to two sources familiar with the white house meetings nielsen told trump that federal court orders prohibited the department of Homeland Security from reinstating that policy of separating families and that he would be reversing his own executive order from june that ended family separations. Well, that didnt stop the president. The departures lead the leadership of the Homeland Security department in tatters. With nielsens departure, a host of top posts at the agency are now staffed by unconfirmed officials, including the secretary, the deputy secretary, the head of fema, the director of i. C. E. , the Inspector General and on wednesday customs and Border Protection as well. The current commissioner, kevin mcaleenan, has been tapped to replace nielsen as acting dhs secretary. For more, im joined by peter baker, chief White House Correspondent for the New York Times. White house reporter for npr and former republican congressman from florida, who we have to say is no longer associated with the Republican Party. Thank you all. I want to start with peter. This looks like something big. Like, is this trump getting ready for reelection saying im going to be mr. Big, im going to be tough as hell on Illegal Immigrants . Well, look week of course hes been frustrated for quite some time his own administration is unable to carry out the wishes hes imposed on it. As you say, in some cases theyre telling him we cant do it. We dont have the authority to do it upped the law or cord orders or what have you. He lashed out last week. He said im going to close the border entirely to all trade and traffic, and even Legal Immigration until he was warned by economics officials that that would do great damage to the economy. He bakcked off, but clearly in deciding to get rid of secretary nielsen and some other people also on the way out, hes trying to, you know, shake things up until he can find people who will carry out the orders he wants to have carried out. The trick is, who can he get that will actually do that and be confirmed by the senate . Even some republicans on the hill are a little upset about this right now. They think that theyre looking for scapegoats and pushing out people who actually agree with the president on his policies, even though theyre not able to do all the things he wants them to do. Aiesha, you next. It seems to me trump is running against ilLegal Immigration. It couldnt be simpler. Thats how he got elected in pennsylvania and places like that. He ran against basically hispanic people coming into the country across the border. He cant seem to find the law on his side. American law is apparently more patient, more discerning, whatever. It doesnt go along with his sort of clobbering idea, you come across the border, i clobber you back to the other side. No law will do that, nor will anybody under him agree to enforce Something Like that. Well, thats the issue. This isnt really a personnel issue. Its an issue of the courts and the law and them just not allowing him to do what he wants to do. He can bring in someone who is really tough and looks really tough and talks really tough, but is that person going to break the law . They just had another court case that said youre not going to be able to keep people in mexico while they apply for asylum. Thats another blow against this administration, and what theyre trying to do. Unless youre going to change the laws, which with a divided congress i dont know how that happens. Yeah. But unless you do that, hes going to be stuck in this situation. Dave jolly, it sounds to me he is in need of a different law to enforce because he doesnt have law now that sets the standards he set in his own campaign, im going to stop ilLegal Immigration flat. Thats what im going to do. No more people coming across that border illegally. He doesnt seem to have the law on his side. Whats he got at this point except rhetoric . Youre right, chris. This story has the perfect trumpisms in it. We know from reporting that he ordered government officials to actually break the law, which in any other environment would be subject to congressional hearings immediately. We also know that hes been exceedingly brash. A man who likes to meet with the north korean dictator, frankly, should be bringing together Central American leaders and mexico and say lets figure out how we humanely deal with this crisis. At the end of the day, chris, i think what donald trump is overlooking and why he can never get past that threshold of his base, this issue lays bare the president s soul to the American People. In many ways, the trump administrations soul. That in response to humanitarian crises, answer is to be harder on the people yeah. To be swifter to punish them. The American People see that and theyre afraid what hes doing is projecting that as the soul of america to the international community. Well, peter, just back to you on that very thought. It could be that his constituency is just as tough as he is. That the people in pennsylvania and places like that who dont like new hispanic neighbors, if you will, who are angry about ilLegal Immigration, usually for ethnic reasons, those people arent that sympathetic to people coming up here for asylum reasons or foe asylum reasons, economic reasons, theyre not happy with them. They want them pushed back. And trumps problem is hes between his promises to redhot constituency he drummed up in the campaign and the law, seems to me. Peter . Yeah, sure. I think thats right. A lot of voters who supported donald trump see immigrants as competing with nativeborn americans for jobs and for government benefits and so on, whether, you know, the studies will show different things. But in their communities or in their media environment that they are watching, thats the way they perceive it. They look at the president and say, well, why cant you do what you said . He wants to be able to do what he said. Im president of the United States, how come i cant simply make this happen . Hes frustrated by the laws and the bureaucrat rules and the various, you know, things that have been in place for many, many years that are beyond a president s analyst to simply snap his finger and change. Well, he comes off as a football owner that just keeps firing managers is whats going on. Coaching anyway. The shakeup at Homeland Security comes as President Trump reviews or renews, rather, his focus on the southern border after cuss tutoms and Border Protection reported a surge of apprehensions this past month. The president seemingly trying to warn off migrants looking to come to the u. S. Here he goes. Its a colossal surge and its overwhelming our immigration system. And we cant let that happen. So as i say, and this is our new statement, the system is full. Cant take you anymore. Our country is full. Our areas full. The sector is full. Cant take you anymore, im sorry. Cant happen. So turn around. Thats the way it is. On a series of tweets yesterday, the president doubled down on that argument, repeatedly saying the country is full. Dave jolly, the politics of this are pretty devastating because americans say were a country of immigrants but were not really. It depends on ethnicity. We all know that. Thats the way it has been in the last president ial election. But the issue of ilLegal Immigration didnt work for the republicans in 2018. It seemed to have a president ial power, but not in a congressional way. How does he get the congress to go along with any law change if he even goes that far . So now hes just firing people. Nielsen is the first head to roll. He wont, chris. Look, this is a hard conversation, but lets finish the president s sentence for him because apparently hes too scared to do so. What hes saying in his mind is that the nation is already full of mexicans and those from central america. Right. It is full of hispanics. That is what the president is saying. Because hes not trying to close any other border. Recall just 12 weeks ago he suggested it was isis that was coming through the caravans. Thats why he had to close the border. He does not have the law on his side, nor should he. The asylum laws are there so that we can give a fair hearing to those who want to offer a petition that they are escaping harm in their home country. This is where the president by responding by treating these people more harshly will disconnect from those voters that we saw come out last november. So the big question i think to everybody on the show right now is what does tougher mean. I want to go to ayesha on that in a moment. Stephen miller is apparently consolidating his control over administration policy. An strigs official told the wall street journal President Trump recently told miller, one of his most hardline advisers of this administration on immigration policy, youre in charge. Meanwhile, politico reports the person close to nielsen said there is definitely a larger shakeup abreast being led by Stephen Miller and the staunch right wing within the administration. They failed with the courts and with congress and now theyre eating their own. Here it comes. What does it mean when trump says you didnt like family separation, get ready for this. Im getting even tougher. Well, its not really clear because the one thing that happened with family separations is he had to pull back on that. He had to reverse that. It looked awful. Now he wants to bring it back again. It looked like sophies choice. It looked terrible. It may work with his base, but it also is going to mobilize a lot of people against him and against republicans. Thats why you had republicans at that time saying this wont stand. You cannot continue this type of policy. So if he tries to bring back the family separation, youre only going to see more people mobilized against that. I dont know what he could do that would be more tough than that. Let me go back to peter on this because i think it is a front page analysis reality here. Were looking into a much more hard to believe it more polarized election in 2020 than in 2016, and the president seems to want to more polarized. Well, hes playing on these issues, of course, that are very, very divisive in the United States right now. Immigration being his central signature issue. Its so important to his identity, his sense of this administration, this presidency. He was elected on this, as far as he was concerned. He was elected on build the wall. He was elected on protecting the country. Hes willing hes said this, hes willing to sacrifice other priorities in order to make this happen. Even the economy he says is not as important as security at the border. He has made very clear through the shutdown that lasted five weeks, very clear through the actions of the last week or two that this is going to be his number one priority Going Forward into this election. This election may be fought out on this very issue. Will the democrats let it become that clear cut . Therefore Something Like leniency, compassion, open borders in some sense, rather than being with trump, are they willing to let the divide open up that clearly . Peter . Well, i think their message is a little fuzzier than his, right . His is relatively straightforward. Im going to protect the country. Im going to stop them from coming in. Democrats are to some extent divided between those like beto orourke who says lets tear down the wall weve already got there at el paso where he was a congressman. Others say, no, no were for border security, but a more rational immigration system that provides at least some sort of path to residency or citizenship for people who are already here and doesnt try to make deportation the only answer to the question. Thats a harder message to sell, right . But on the other hand, the president , as you said, went out on the campaign trail last fall, he tried to sell the idea that the democrats were for open borders to the electorate. It didnt work in a congressional year. A president ial year is a different year. Different kind of electorate. I agree. Well see how that plays out. Lets go to david on this one because it seems Stephen Miller taking over tells us basically hes brinking in frank rizzo, hes brinking in the toughest guy hes got here. Youre not a republican. Is this going to make you less a republican if we go to def con 2. Stephen miller said he would be happy if not one additional foot of an Asylum Seeker ever set ground on american soil. Chris, this is the interesting thing, to your last conversation with peter. No politician today should accept this as a binary choice between open borders and security. The person who can succeed on this issue, and, frankly, donald trump could accomplish much of what he wants to do on security if you led by showing that youre actually going to take care of the human crisis. That doesnt mean you have to admit everybody in. Publicly deploy Health Care Workers and education workers, teachers to take care of these families and these Young Children and make that the face of American Immigration policy. That were going to attend to the very human crisis while also supporting border security. The American People want border security. But their heart is in a very different place than the president of the United States on this. I agree with you. I think the family separation killed trump for awhile, not too long, he came back, but i also think a conservative point of view, a Republican Point of view voiced very well on chucks show here yesterday on meet the press. I thought mitt romney sounded very solid on immigration. More conservative view, but hi sounded like a traditional republican, not a trumpite. Anyway, he looked good. Thank you so much, peter baker, ayesha rasco and david jolly. Coming up, the fight over trumps tax returns. His acting chief of staff says democrats will never, ever forget the alibi not even talking about audits. Youre never getting your hands on the president s tax returns. Whats that about . But never is a long time and the law says the irs has to shall turn over those forms. Plus, barack obama warns democrats not to kill each other. One of the things i do worry about sometimes among progressives in the United States, maybe its true here as well, is a certain kind of rigidity. The former president talking about ideological purity and warning democrats about what he calls the circular firing squad. Thats an image. Much more ahead on that one. Stick with us. Us. With a lot ofr young couples. Then we noticed something. Strange. Oh, could you, uh, make me a burger . Poof youre a burger. [ laughter ] everyone acts like their parents. You have a tattoo. Yes. Fun. Do you not work . So, what kind of mower you got, seth . I dont know. Some kid comes over. We pay him to do it. But its not all bad. Someone even showed us how we can save money by bundling home and auto with progressive. Progressive cant protect you from becoming your parents. But we can protect your home and auto. Progressive cant protect you from becoming your parents. Val, vern. Im off to college and im not gonna be around. Im worried about my parents retirement. Oh, dont worry. Voya helps them to and through retirement. Dealing with todays expenses. Like college. While helping plan, invest and protect for the future. So theyll be okay. Without me . Um. And when we knock out this wall imagine the closet space . Yes oh hey, son. Yeah, i think theyll be fine. Voya. Helping you to and through retirement. There but what are wes to get our messactually saying . Ys. Any message is a story. And all stories tell the tale of the times we live in right now. How do you want to be remembered . How do you want your story to play out . Our own experiences make the best stories, and your words carry a lot of weight. Think about what you want to say before you say it. Or send it. Welcome back to hardball. The battle for President Trumps tax returns is well under way after the house ways and Means Committee issued a formal request to the irs last week. The chairman of that committee, congressman richard neal of massachusetts, has set a deadline of wednesday, thats tomorrow. However, acting white house chief of staff Mick Mulvaney said yesterday the democrats will never this sounds like an 8yearold again. Never get the tax returns. Listen to the guy. To be clear, you believe democrats will never see the president s tax returns . Oh, no, never. Nor should they. Keep in mind, thats an issue that was already litigated during the election. Voters knew the president could have given his tax returns. They knew that he didnt and they elected him anyway, which, of course, is what drives the democrats crazy. Thats the lamest argument. In other words, if he continued talking like he did o