And if youve had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flulike symptoms or sores. Dont start humira if you have an infection. Be there for you, and them. Ask your gastroenterologist about humira. With humira, remission is possible. s welcome to kasie d. C. Im kasie hunt. We are live every sunday from washington from 7 00 to 9 00 p. M. Eastern. Tonight, executive disorder. The president puts his pen to paper, but this nations immigration policy mess isnt going to be fixed overnight. Plus, i traveled to the border to talk exclusively with senator kamala harris. I asked her whether its time to abolish i. C. E. And she said, we might need to start from scratch. And just in tonight, the Washington Post reports stormy
daniels will meet with federal prosecutors tomorrow. But first, when we came on the air last week, the country was at an impasse. The president calling on congress to act on sweeping immigration legislation to end the separation of immigrant families at the border with mexico. The president insisting he couldnt fix it alone. Republicans in congress were by and large horrified and for the First Time Since the president s election, they said President Trump, youve gone too far. And with every Senate Democrat also taking a stand against the policy, the president signed an Executive Order ending the policy he started the week saying he was helpless to stop. And now we are back at the start of the cruel circle. Families are still in flux. Federal officials are struggling to keep up to reunite those families and congress has no clear plan to reform an Immigration System that has needed repair for decades. With all this, id like to
welcome in my panelment here with me on set, politics reporter for the daily beast and msnbc contributor betsy woodruff. Washington bureau chief for vice news, Shawna Thomas and principal at koej entitle strategies kevin mclaughlin. President historian msnbc contributor and author of the soul of america, the battle for our better angels, john meacham. John, i want to come to you in a second to for a little bit of conversation about exactly which angels are in charge right at the moment. I want to start with you, Shawna Thomas, because this week i remember sitting here a week ago sunday and wondering if this was going to be the kind of story that was actually going to breakthrough, that wasnt just going to be another handful of minutes of news cycle and those pictures galvanized the country. They galvanized both parties. And the president was forced to back down. Yeah, and i think some of that is you still have people going down to the sites outside of el paso and down in mcallen. You had members of congress there yesterday. You were there apparently. Briefly. Briefly. Yes. And also there was another event today that had basically activists, lawyers, immigration lawyers, that kind of thing. There are still people going down there. We had a correspondent there, santoro, one of the people there with someone running for congress in that district. As long as people keep drawing attention to this, i think it is going to last for a while as an issue. The thing is were about to be on the 4th of july. We are going to be in the middle of summer, people are going to be taking vacations with their family, people are not going to be paying as much attention. I dont know if this issue goes all the way to the election and thats some of why its still bubbling up because both democrats and republicans think this is an issue that either needs to be taken care of so it doesnt affect the election or democrats think they can possibly use it, which sounds callous and i understand that. But it is kind of the situation were in in 2018. Of course, we want to be sensitive and the reality,
though, is that there still are thousands of kids who are, we think hundreds, at least 1800 plus kids who are still separated from their families at this point. John meacham, can you kind of put the week that was in perspective here for us . I mean, this has been an issue that we as a nation is have grappled with time and time again and weve had, you know, episodes where, you know, america has shown as the shining City On The Hill and times when we have not quite frankly lived up to what the Statue Of Liberty promises. Absolutely. One of the first debates we had in the country in the 1790s, and you know its a good sunday when you start with the 1790s. Was a battle over the alien sedition acts, where we were an infant nation, and yet we gave the president of the United States the power to deport immigrants by fiat. Illegal aliens, aliens he believed to be dangerous. Into the 19th century where you had the chinese exclusion act, we had viciously racist rhetoric
from mainstream political figures in the 19th century who worried that, to quote a senator from maine i think it was, worried there was going to be a yellow empire from california to the rockies if we didnt limit immigration from asia. There was the fears of the White Working Class that led to the rise of the second ku klux klan from 1915 to about 1927 that was explicit anxiety that immigrants were going to work harder and possibly for less money. Now, conservatives who believe in a free market had some problems with intellectual consistency. Thats never stopped them. Into where we are now. And i think whats to me whats really interesting about the last 12 or 13 days or so is i believe its the first time in the Trump Administration where the president has explicitly reversed course or at least begun to reverse course. I understand before people start tweeting, i understand that this is like an arsonist, you were
congratulating an arsonist for putting out a fire. At least the fire was put out to some extent. And i think that the lesson for all of us and the country is that sustained public pressure, sustained resistance is absolutely essential at any moment in the life of the republic, but particularly one when we have a president who seems so determined to knock down the ordinary guardrails and the ordinary conventions of generosity that have marked our best eras. Kevin mclaughlin, can you weigh in on what john meacham is putting out there . You are i dont know if you are a never trumper. I dont know if i want to label you that in public. Im not. You are somebody who has been a member of the Republican Party sometime and seen it change under President Trump. And quite frankly, this seems it felt to me like the first time that republicans said no way, were not doing this. Let me go back to 1790 polling data and ill take you back like john did. I think there was a visceral
reaction. Republicans have worked hard to get themselves in a good place in the Midterm Election a first time in a long time. They all see it going up in smoke right now. You know, midterms are base elections so i think in the senate actually, i dont think this is having a huge impact. I think it might kind of sort of help, if you will, on the republican side, as long as it gets solved immediately. But on the house side with so many Swing Districts and so many retirements in those districts, its a real problem on the house side. For sure. So, speaking of polling, the reports over the last week said that President Trump wanted the showdown over immigration. My people love it, he said, according to the new york times. We now have new polling from cbs news and it shows the vast divide in how americans are reacting and perceiving this issue. While 53 of americans strongly oppose separating children from their parents who enter the country illegally, americans are divided over whether reuniting them is a high priority. And the difference, surprise, surprise, is political party. 75 of democrats said reunification should be a top priority, while just a quarter of republicans said the same thing. And nearly 75 of republicans said those who entered the u. S. Illegally should be punished as an example of toughness while 80 of democrats said they should be treated well as an example of kindness. Here is the president this weekend in las vegas. We have the toughest border you can have considering the laws are the worst of the whole country. Our Immigration Laws are a laughing stock all over the world. Were the only people people walk in, they put a foot in. Please, would you like to register . Other countries, they say get the hell out of here. And the president Tweeting Today in part, quote, we cannot allow all of these people to invade our country. When somebody comes in, we Must Immediately with no judges or court cases bring them back from where they came. Kevin, i want go back to you on this, and betsy, id like you to weigh in as well. But clearly the president views
this as a base issue, immigration. And the polling to a certain extent bears that out. I think my question is, is the number of those republicans shrinking as this presidency wears on . That may be true. I dont know. The problem i have with it is i think the base is pretty well locked down at this point. To be honest with you, the stuff the republicans would want to run on, economy, ending regulation, judges, thats really good for the base as it is on the republican side. And you dont have to lose people, per se, in droves when you do the Hot Button Issue like immigration. I think thats the big reason that republicans just want to and Congress Want to move on and get on to the next thing. Speaking of political the base of a party, this is the other side. This week i traveled to the otai Mesa Detention Center in san diego to talk with senator kamala harris. During our conversation i asked her about the growing calls from progressive activists to abolish i. C. E. Take a look. A lot of the signs that the rally you just held were people standli standing there saying abolish i. C. E. Is that a position you agree with . Listen, i think there is no question we have to critically reexamine i. C. E. And its role and the way it is being administered and the work it is doing and we need to probably think about starting from scratch because theres a lot that is wrong with the way that its conducting itself. And we need to deal with that. What do you think should be the alternative to i. C. E. . Well, first of all, i dont think that the government should be in the position of separating families and that is clearly what is part of Whats Happening at i. C. E. And dhs. You look at Whats Happening, again, in terms of how theyre conducting their perspective on asylum seekers, that is a real problem and is contrary to all of the spirit and the reason that we even have the asylum rules and laws in the first place. So, their mission, i think, is very much in question and has to be reexamined. What do you make of that . Is i. C. E. The bigger problem here . Well, i dont know how you abolish an agency without abolishing the function. And i think the function is necessary. As far as what senator harris said about examining what theyre doing, how theyre doing it, i think thats absolutely something we should do. Thats our responsibility to provide oversight. But ultimately there is going to have to be an agency before i. C. E. It was ins. There has to be some agency to administer the Immigration Laws in the country. There are a lot of questions to be answered. I dont know if i say abolish. I dont think that makes a lot of sense, but i do think looking at it makes a hell of a lot of sense. Betsy woodruff, abolish i. C. E. Is becoming a litmus test for democrats. Thats right. I think particularly progressive activists are trying to make this a central trying to expand the overton window, if you will. In terms of the conversation that can be had about policy. That said, of course, these
calls make peoples heads blow up at dhs. And what youll hear from dhs officials, rank and file, its their job to enforce the law. They are a Law Enforcement agency and what they will say, pushing back against kamala harris, the senator from california, and senator king, is very much that the problem is the laws themselves. Not the Law Enforcement agency. Thats the argument youre going to hear back. Thats something youll hear from republicans as well. The challenge for progressives is to differentiate the way laws are enforced and the laws themselves. The one thing we know is congress is really bad at changing Immigration Laws. Its been a nonstarter for literally almost decades now, i think. And thats part of the reason there is such a push back against the agency enforcing the laws. I also think that how the agency does their job is also governed by who is at the top. So, the difference between the Obama Administration and the Trump Administration in the case of how i. C. E. Performs their function, whether it be within the country or on the border is that this Zero Tolerance policy on the border was something that was from on high, right . So i. C. E. Has to send their send the people that they catch on the other side of the border into the judicial system. Thats not thats not the i. C. E. Agents fault. That is a higher that is a higher calling. Absolutely. As well as like the raid Everyone Wants to point to, this is if you can have a sign that says abolish i. C. E. You can point towards those raids that are also doing things to families. But they are carrying out the policy of a president that has been hard on immigration since he ran for office. And lets remember how much of this comes back to doj rather than immigration enforcement. The zerotolerance policy was a decision of the attorney general, jeff sessions, it was his idea. Its at the end of the day about the people who are in charge. Lets refocus a second i do want to make sure we keep the focus where it needs to be, which is on these people who are still separated from their families. These mothers, fathers and of course the children. I was down on the border because senator harris went to visit that Detention Center to meet with mothers who had been separated from their children. Heres a little bit more of our conversation. Senator, youve had a long career in Law Enforcement i mean, can you compare what you saw in this facility to some of the other things youve seen . I mean, its a prison, kasie, its a prison. I visited some of the worst prisons in the United States and it is a prison. You walk in. There are two layers of barbed wire and fence. There are people in pods and theres kind of a more Maximum Security Area and then the lower security area. The time im spending is to talk with mothers who have been ripped from their children and just and the pain, right . I mean, you know, theyre sitting with the United States senators so they kind of hold it together and then we start to talk about it and the tears just start flowing. Its awful. Its the pain of having to leave the only country theyve known, because it was so dangerous. Its the pain of traveling
through an unknown land, right, through the country of mexico, relying on strangers in these caravans. The pain of all that they will be exposed to during that trek, right, not being in control of much. And the abuse they may endure. And then they arrive. And without even having the ability to yet give their story about the circumstances of their arrival, their children are taken from them and taken to unknown places. Its outrageous and its inhumane. And its unnecessary. And i think, kasie, thats one of the most important aspects of this whole issue. Its not necessary. Its actually not necessary. But you know why they did it . And this cant be lost in this conversation. They told us why they did it. The administration told us why they did it. They did this to deter others from coming to the country. So you have decided to exact what could be a lifetime of trauma over 2000 children for deterrence of other people . Its unconscionable. Were going to have my complete interview with senator harris up in the next hour. John meacham, with some of those descriptions, vivid descriptions i sat i rode with senator harris to the Detention Sen consider. Theres rolls and rolls of barbed wire, double prison doors. It feels like it really feels like a prison. Im curious, i mean, we have a couple dark moments in our nations history that we all kind of remember. Is this one that you think is going to get added to that list . Its certainly the most vivid manifestation of what so many people have feared about the Trump Administration. And i think you go from the travel ban early on to this Separation Policy and i do think also there is a difference between it gets kind of fuzzed up in the conversation. There is a difference between zerotolerance illegal Border Policy and a separate children from parents. And i think that one can be for a Strong Border and find Whats Happening with these children to be abhorrent. I think thats an important distinction. And one that i believe, frankly a more morally sound and a more intellectually consistent administration might actually make. Why wouldnt Zero Tolerance by itself be sufficient deterrent . Thats a conversation that can be had. The Trump Administration isnt interested in having a conversation. They are reaping what theyve sown. Everything is a zerosum game. Everything is the war of