Katy tur reports right now. Good to be with you. Im katy tur. Why wasnt there a red wave in 2022 . And why do we keep on seeing democrats win in blue places, in purple places, and red places . You can argue candidate quality. You can also argue threats to democracy, but you cannot argue with the impact of abortion. Ever since the Supreme Court overturned roe v. Wade, blue voters, purple voters and red voters across the country have turned up to protest it. Not through rallies or marches, though some have done that, too, but for voting. Both for candidates and for policies that promise to protect access to health care. It is the single issue that democrats close to President Biden tell me they are banking on most in 2024 in november. Just watch, theyve said. As we get into this year, there will be Court Decision after Court Decision, further restricting access and further alienating voters from the gop. And lo and be hold, here we are, the Alabama StateSupreme Court ruled embryos are children. Effectively outlawing ivf as it is currently practiced or making it murky enough to force providers to pause. We will get into the specifics of why that is in a moment with a Fertility Doctor in alabama. Along with the background of the Alabama Court and its Chief Justice who cited quote, the wrath of a holy god in his Concurring Opinion. We have to start with the politics. Who did decisions like this, one that is dont just make it harder to end a pregnancy but make it harder to start a presidency. You may think evangelicals, thats not entirely clear. Kellyanne conway, polling Shows Americans across the board support ifv. 85 of all respondents to her polling firm ka consulting, 78 among selfidentified pro life advocates, and 83 among evangelical christians. So i ask again, who do decisions like this win over . Joining us now from myrtle beach, south carolina, lisa rubin, ali vitali, and Heidi Przybyla joins me as well. Youre following nikki haley. Yesterday you asked about this decision, and she seemed to side with the Alabama StateSupreme Court that an embryo is a child. Shes now trying to walk that back. Tell us why that is so significant. Reporter her exact words to me were embryos to me are babies. Shes someone who had her son with the help of artificial insemination. That process is different than ivf. While she believed that embryos were babies, she also thought it was important for people to be able to have open conversations with their doctors and that this is that governments have to be sensitive about. Of course, we know the impact of laws having chilling effects on those kinds of Sensitive Conversations that patients can have with their doctors, especially around Reproductive Health care. You look in the postdobbs era and the answer to the question of why is this something she feels she has to clean up is right there. In every single election contest we have seen, and there have been seven or eight in the last year and a half, not including the mass 2022 midterms where people wondered why there wasnt a red wave, and reproductive access was part of the conversation. When abortion is on the ballot, pro choice have seen wins in the ballot box. Republicans over the entire time i have covered this 2024 primary have all struggled when it comes to the question at what week mark do they want to ban abortion, especially because the National Sentiment around that issue is one that they prefer. Americans prefer abortion to be available and safe and legal as opposed to restricted. But what you have right now is a reminder that the u. S. Is a patch work of rules after the Dobbs Decision. Nikki haley now weighing in on one of the tangents were seeing happen in some of these redder states in the postdobbs era and recognizing thats out of step with where the American Public wanted to be, on something highly used by people who want to grow their families like ivf. Heidi, lets talk about what youre gathering, when it comes to evangelicals, pro life voters. We talked this morning, we happened to have a politico summit with governors, including governors from pretty red states. I interviewed Governor Stitt from oklahoma, but we also interviewed governor lee. I think this is a moment where things are starting to crystallize to explain why so Many Americans feel that democracy is eroding. Here you have a minority of a minority of christians making these decisions based along ideological lines or at least thats how Many Americans feel about this. This is coming on the heels of the roe decision where even that decision, you look at 24 of republicans, just 24 , believe that abortion should be illegal in all cases, yet you have these very restrictive in a number of red states. This issue appropriately framed it in the opening is not about ending life, but creating life. And here you have alabamas largest hospital pausing ivf treatment, which is going to be heartbreaking for many women, who by the way, are probably conservatives as well, who have their embryos in there, and also these Upcoming Court rulings. This isnt going to be the issue for you, theres more in april, the court is going to take up this issue of mifepristone, which is the number one Abortion Method in america. The chemical abortion bill. And that could also cause a huge outcry among americans who, you know, now that abortion is becoming illegal in many states wouldnt have this access as well. We had a little bit of trouble with your audio up top, i believe brian kemp of georgia, bill lee, and chris sununu have got no problem with ivf. It seems like although the republicans wanted abortion to be roe v. Wade to be overturned in the Supreme Court, the Unintended Consequences of that or the fact that they can no longer control it after that, is boomeringing around on that. Yeah, i dont know if you heard this part. On behalf of a majority of americans. This is, i think, a reason, a primary reason why so Many Americans feel like democracy is eroding because these decisions fundamentally cut against how most americans feel, what most americans believe, and that goes for republicans, certainly, including, for instance, on the issue of roe. I dont know if you heard the statistic, but 24 of republicans believe abortion should be illegal in all cases, and you have these very restrictive laws being passed in red state after red state, and this issue is going to stay very much in front of the public because of these court rulings, and then number two, because of the trump campaign, the past, you know, on these issue, the extreme evangelical positions, the Extreme Orthodox Catholic positions, they were basically just foot soldiers in the army to getting republican president s elected but now they have the power of the pen and i did some reporting on that this week as well. The New York Times is also reporting on what a Trump Administration, if he were elected again would look like for reproductive rights and all of the ways that the Trump Administration could use Executive Action to limit it further. Including the comstock act. I want to focus on alabama itself. Lets talk about this court. Whats the history of this court in terms of the fight against abortion, the fight to overturn roe v. Wade . The statute thats being interpreted dates back to the 1870s. It had been recently interpreted to cover unborn children as well. The issue in this decision but its an 1870s decision theyre citing to say it protects children, including children made in a petri dish which could not have been further from the minds of the people who created this wrongful death statute in 1872. Thats absolutely right. As we often see in movements they have slowly chipped away at what it means to be a minor child. First giving rights to unborn children and in this decision, deciding that unborn children is a category that must include embryos, even if theyre outside the womb. This court has been at it for a while, and in particular, its chief Justice Tom Parker who was first elected in 2004. Hes the founding Executive Director of an organization affiliated with focus on the family, and for whom god might be the highest authority, even above the Constitution State or federal. He cited god in his decision. A lot of people read this, im sorry, i thought we didnt live in a state that had religion embedded in this. How can he do that as a judge. Thats what we call saying the quiet part out loud. Those beliefs, i think, animate the majority of decision in dobbs as well. They find their expression in that opinion in terms of all sorts of history. The opinion itself says our history and tradition teach us abortion is not a fundamental right. What under girds that, a deeply rooted belief in faith that abortion should not be a moral good or Public Access or right. When were talking about religion, youre arguing this is a religiousbased decision, there are other groups who say my religion, and i have freedom of my religion in this country, its embedded in the constitution, my religion says a baby is not a person until its first breath. Thats right. And theyre arguing that in court yes, and they have with respect to post dobbs legislation as well. There was legislation in florida started by rabbis say the jewish religion does not prohibit abortion, and therefore floridas own laws are now penalizing people on the basis of religious identification. Infertility has no religion, it has no political party. As you noted in your opening in that polling from kellyanne conway. There are many people who identify as pro life that are pro ivf. Youre seeing the chairman of the Alabama Committee start to think about how do we amend the statute so embryos not implanted in a womb dont count as a child for purposes of the wrongful death act, and also dont erode the right and access to ivf. He writes what they should do is implant every single embryo, no matter how high of a quality one hit to see if it implants and gets to birth. If it doesnt, trial over again. If youve been through ivf you know thats not a feasible process nor is it a financially easy process, considering it costs 20 to 30 grand depending on where you are. Ladies, thank you very much. Joining us now is john boehner, and msnbc political analyst, brandon buck. Its also not physically or emotionally easy either. Brendan what does this mean . Look, you know, as you all have stated very clearly, this is not a Consensus Position even in the Republican Party and i was frankly stunned that nikki haley leaned into the ruling in the way that she remembers. She certainly didnt do her party any favors with this. As you have talked about, the issue of abortion was a major deciding factor in the last election. And i think that surprised a lot of republicans who thought the election was going to be about the economy. What republicans have learned is you dont get to decide what an election is about in a vacuum. And as we have already seen, democrats are going to try to seize on this, and the president himself putting out a statement on it today, and i imagine theyre going to continue talking ant this. This will matter more or less depending on what a lot of republicans do right now. If the response like a lot of those governors you listed is we dont agree with this, we are not going to stand by this. We are going to not allow that in our state. This could go away. If donald trump says this is stupid, were going to allow ivf, this may go away. If you have enough republicans in State Legislatures going along with this. Youre going to end up this a situation where the party is basically held hostage by a bunch of actors, a like a state Supreme Court and legislature, and nobody can define the politics for the party. Thats where we get in trouble. Do you think they can put the cat back in the bag, especially when youve seen state after state make abortion illegal after fewer weeks, six weeks, sometimes just at concept, you have texas that says its illegal period and you cant get an abortion unless youre on deaths door on the operating table, and we have seen the consequences of that. Theres donald trumps, you know, reporting talking about how he favors stricter Abortion Limits nationally. Theres reporting from the New York Times talking about what his administration would want to do. Individuals within a Trump Administration in the future about using the comstock act, which would say that you cant send Abortion Bills across state lines, interpreting that old law to make it harder to practice abortion anywhere in the country because you cant get the materials you need to do it. Can you put the cat back in the bag when all of that stuff is in the either now . Its hard to. Theres an enormous constituency in the Republican Party that want those things. The ivf is a bit of an outlier. Theres not consensus that ivf is bad. Unlike abortion, where theres a very Large Population who are not going to tolerate backsliding on that. I dont know that you can, and democrats will press their advantage. What happened in 22 is state where is Abortion Access was not in question, those attacks on republicans didnt resonate quite as much. Republicans had a good night in new york. Abortion rights were not going to go away. Republicans didnt suffer from those attacks quite as much. If in georgia, brian kemp says were going to make sure ivf is allowed. This is part of a bigger trend where you have a State Legislatures and court All Over The Place having this drip drip drip that puts the Republican Party out of the mainstream of the general population, and if donald trump isnt willing to change this direction. Courts that have been stacked heavily by the Trump Administration four years ago with republicans who are not in favor of abortion. Bren dan buck, thank you very much. University of alabama at birmingham has paused ivf. What are other alabama clinics doing. A doctor from one joins me next. Plus, President Biden has just met with the widow and daughter of alexei navalny, what he told them about how the u. S. Plans to hold Vladimir Putin accountable. And what was it like being held hostage by hamas . Nbc news sits down with one woman who was freed after 51 days. She tells us what she saw, and what she fears for those still in gaza including her husband. Were back in 60 seconds. Ds what . I dont do that. This reminds me of my bike. The wolf was about the size of my new motorcycle. Have you seen it, by the way . Happy birthday, grandma really . Look how the brushstrokes follow the line of the gas tank. Hey hey brought my plusone. Jamie . Subways tuna is off the hook its 100 percent wildcaught. This tuna is fishing for a compliment and im taking the bait. Alright, im all punned out. Im ofishally finished. Get it . Try subways tasty tuna today. Lets keep talking about what this alabama decision means. Joining us now, dr. Beth, who specializes in infertility and reproductive surgery at the alabama fertility clinic. Thank you for being with us. We have the University Of Alabama pausing ivf treatments. Mobile is also pausing their procedures. This just happened. What is your clinic going to do . Our clinic is struggling to come up a plan thats safe for patients and is able to continue the care we would like to with our clinic population. We are working with our legal team, locally and nationally, as well as our lab director to come up with a plan. For now, we have continued patients who are actively in treatment to attempt to do whats right and stay for them. We have paused other treatments. Were doing a hold for those patients. Were modifying their treatment plan with the hope and expectation that we can have more clarity on this and move forward in a safe way for us and them. Can i ask with a little bit more detail, are you doing any Embryo Transfers right now . Are you doing any fertilization of eggs and sperm right now . For now, we are continuing with patients in active treatment. We are doing egg retrievals, we have paused frozen Embryo Transfers and the thaw of those embryos. We are trying to modify this. This has been really been flexible and fluid over the last week. As you can imagine, theres lots of conversation going on here for whats right for us as well as for patients. So constantly changing now. It sound like youre doing much of what the University Of Alabama is doing, and correct me if im wrong if what the mobile infirmary is doing, basically saying the murky part is not the freezing part of the eggs or sperm, the murky part is the embryos itself because thats what this ruling basically says those embr