Analyst for nbc and msnbc, John Heilemann. Next to john, Pulitzer Prize winning historian jon meacham, the soul of america, the battle for our better angels is out now. Well talk about it throughout the show. I would say, joe, that meachum is the soul of america, dont you think . Well, either the soul of america or the soul of bell meade, or at least the country club. You know, jon, its another extraordinary book of yours. And theres a line that i got and i really think it encapsulates this entire project and puts everything in perspective, so much Important Information for americans out there, but you write in the introduction to know what has come before is to be armed against despair. Wow. You talk about the vanity of the president. We always believed these are the worst of times, but in the words of that Great American philosopher, Gladys Knight as bad as these days seem, these will one day seen as the good ole days by our children. You put that in historical context. Weve been through this before. Its whether we listen to our better angels or not and actually learn from that history that is inside us. Tell us about it. Absolutely. The given era is shaped by whether we open our arms wider or clinch our fists. And this is not a fourth of july homily, not a sermon. As a historical fact, the eras that we look back on that we want to emulate, that we commemorate are those that were never easy but they were ones in which we broaden the definition wrote, we were all created equal. This is not a call to say, oh, everything has turned out before, so lets sit back and just wait this out. This is in no way is that. People have to work. They have to protest and have conversations like this. They have to vote. They have to listen to the other guy because the other guy may be wrong 99 times out of 100, but there will be 100th time where we can cooperate and move to higher ground. Well, now i have my own coffee. Joe is half way through it and absolutely loving it. Thank you, john. Also with us this morning, chief White House Correspondent for the New York Times peter baker, Political Writer for the New York Times and msnbc political analyst nick confessorry and in washington, Nbc News National Political reporter heidi przybyla. A lot to get to. Rudy unravelled more over the weekend, if its possible, joe. He really did. Not only did he unravel more spitting, standing secretary of state, on prepared remarks, and seemed completely out of control, we have to remember this is a man that the white house worked furiously to get as secretary of state even though they were admitting privately during the transition that Rudy Giuliani had lost quite a few steps. He would fall asleep in the middle of meetings actually five minutes into meetings and his head would be rested on his chest, that he wasnt completely all there. Those are the words of donald trump and those around him back two years ago. Now we have a man known as americas mayor, a man who did some pretty extraordinary things in new york, was viewed favorably by so many in the days after 9 11, John Heilemann, completely humiliating himself. Nobody around him to protect himself from himself and the lose r is not only donald trump because of the mistakes he makes every time he goes out and starts talking about the legal case, but Staff Members in the white house beyond themselves that these two older gentlemen are seem to be detached from the political reality they have to deal with and clean up everyday and they are going out between them and just making a mess of Donald Trumps legal situation. Yes. Look, to your point, joe, this is not a we had Rudy Giuliani off the National Stage for a while when he did not get his appointment to the Trump Administration as he hoped. He sort of went dark for the better part of a year and now hes back. But if you remember what he was like during the campaign, this behavior is not at all inconsistent with his behavior in that period in 2016. He said some extraordinary things in the course of 2016 about Hillary Clintons health, he trafficked some conspiracy theories and tendency to rant and rave. He often won favor with donald trump, people will remember that on the weekend of the access Hollywood Tape when no one else would go on television that sunday the tape came out on a friday, when no one else would go out on television on sunday to defend donald trump, Rudy Giuliani went out and did five sunday shows. He curried some favor with trump in that moment. Yet even then a few months later as you point out when it came time for a job in the Administration Donald Trump turned him away and said a lot of very dismissive things about him all makes all the more extraordinary he turned back to Rudy Giuliani in this moment. So theres nothing unexpected about his poor performance here. Incredible thing is that trump has turned to him and if you look at the way on friday the way that trump threw him under the bus, not once but twice on camera and now trump watching him over the weekend, i wonder and i know im not the only one wondering this, how long this marriage of desperation, of convenience, how long this marriage will last. Its peter baker. Youve been writing about President Trump losing control of the narrative. I would also say hes lost control of his newest lawyer and im not sure why its taking so long to realize this. Maybe one of the events of the past five days of rudy would be enough. The guy seems to be a train wreck. The problem is its one thing to have a Bad Television appearance. Its another thing if youre a lawyer and putting your client in effect in greater legal jeopardy. Thats the question a lot of lawyers are doing right now. Some of the things that Rudy Giuliani has said, cause us a talk about him on television or give ammunition to prosecutors. I think that any seasoned lawyer would be asking the president is this really what you want as your chief lawyer right now. Wow. And you have, jon meacham, so many different arguments that Rudy Giuliani is making. Its very clear that hes making it up as he goes along. This weekend he let out that there were probably other payments to other women from donald trump, something obviously donald trump wouldnt want out. Hes completely blown up every time line, every time line of lies that donald trump has laid out before. Its hard to see Rudy Giuliani where he is today and where he was on september 11th, 2001. Absolutely. What giuliani did on the 11th and in the aftermath, particularly on that long and tragic afternoon when the president was moving around on air force one, giuliani in many ways became the focal point of the country. And he was it was whatever you think about his mayorship throughout, that was a Great Service and something that was virtually churchillian in that terrible hour. Its been downhill since and accelerating, i think. Part of whats happened and its tricky to explain to people who maybe havent lived here, but basically this is the new york city tabloid political culture has gone south to washington. Uhhuh. And its a world of the New York Post and 21 and lots of stake houses, lots of onion loaves, the grand havana room which is a great place, i think. Its the last cigar bar. Lets not be too negative here, but its this roy cone world of just punch. And president s when theyre in trouble, they usually try to send for a stabilizing figure, lbj sends for clark figure, clinton sent for want somebody to come in and settle things down. George w. Bush sends for bob gates. What has trump done . Trump sent for a fellow brawler. If anything that tells us what the next x number of months will be like. Well, there are new questions about Michael Cohens role as Donald Trumps fixer and whether he maintained a secret slush fund to make damaging stories disappear during the election. According to the wall street journal, cohen gained access to as much as three quarters of a Million Dollars during the president ial campaign siting real estate records the journal reports in february of 2016, cohen nearly doubled the amount he could use on a line of credit tied to his manhattan condo. He closed one, 255,000 account and opened another for a half million. Three months before that, the journal reports that cohen gained access to another 529,000 tied to his wifes parents mortgage. Cohen is currently under federal investigation in a broad case that includes the payments to Stormy Daniels and karen mcdougal, the playboy play mate who also claims she had an affair with trump. The journal reports that federal prosecutors and the fbi are examining whether cohen committed bank fraud or by misstating the intended purpose of the loans like when he claimed he used a home equity line of credit to pay Stormy Daniels. Yesterday Rudy Giuliani was back in front of the cameras and was asked about the tre taner to the president used to reimburse cohen. You said he this was a regular arrangement he had with Michael Cohen. Michael cohen make other payments to other women for the president . He made payments for the president or conducted business for the president. Which means he had legal fees, moneys laid out and expenditures, which i have on my bills to my clients. It was not a Campaign Contribution because it would have been done any way. This is the kind of thing i settled for celebrities and famous people, every lawyer that does that kind of work has. According to Rudy Giuliani, this was basically common place, that the president had effectively an Extramarital Affairs slush fund that was administered by Michael Cohen and he would just be expected to take care of these things. They were a regular occurrence. That in and of itself should be very disturbing. Most people of means, most people of wealth and celebrity, they dont have Extramarital Affairs slush funds and the suggestion is insulting. So, mika, first of all, its important for us at this point to blow up a lie that donald trump and Rudy Giuliani keep spitting out there and giuliani keeps saying, oh, this would have been paid any way. Even if there werent a president ial election this would have been paid any way. It bears repeating that donald trump and Stormy Daniels got together at least met allegedly had an affair in 2006. Got it . Right. 2006. They end up paying her off a week before the election. I know. Ten years later. So, Rudy Giuliani makes himself look like a fool, makes the president look like a liar. Makes it look like this is a coverup, which i guess apparently it is because he keeps lying saying this would have happened any way. No, it happened and the timing is whats so devastating. Ten years separate from the incident they pay her off because whats two weeks away . The president ial race. Thats why the federal Elections Commission ultimately needs to be involved. Well, and heidi, first of all, i dont know why rudy is there right now because he keeps making things worse. It must be that hes free and wants to be near someone in power even though the situation seems to be careening to a terrible end. Having said that, is there any other way of looking at these payments . Especially the time line that joe laid out. He really paraded a public relss and potentially legal problem for the president by making him the president look like a liar when he said on air force one that he didnt know about those payments. Joe and mika i was in touch with white house officials over the weekend who was going out on the air trying to clean all of this up and now it looks like theres more than just the president trying to clean up after Rudy Giuliani but other officials who are now saying well, lets parse this a little bit more even and say that the president didnt know at the time that the payments were made, not that he didnt know period. And so we still have no clarity from this white house probably because the president himself is giving so many conflicting accounts to his aides of when exactly he learned from this payments. But, no, second there is no other way to interpret it. And the second problem here that was created by giuliani over the weekend was saying that theyre implicating that there may be other payments. Lets do the math here. We have about 400,000 to 700,000that was sent over to Michael Cohen, only 130,000 now do we have accounted for in terms of the payment to Stormy Daniels. When Rudy Giuliani says there could be other women out there and we have previous reporting by Michael Avenatti saying he was approached by all these other women, you wonder if theres a second big wave to this story. Nick confessorry, one of the things i dont understand about Michael Cohen, the finances and these payoffs and him having to take out a loan against his inlaws houses, you read in the times and the Washington Post this is a guy whose fatherinlaw was connected, i believe, to ukrainian mobsters, as far as at least they rented out his hall. He had an interest in that. He sells real estate, makes 25 million in profit. All these massive numbers out there. And then hes struggling to get 200,000 to have a credit line on his inlaws parents to pay off Stormy Daniels in the final days of the campaign. Can you help me out on this . Whats the difference between the tens of millions of dollars that he seems to be moving around and then him struggling to make 120,000 hush payment . Joe, its the exact right question and cohens finances are the biggest mystery here. How could he make 30 or 40 million in a real estate flip and be hankering after 100 grand on a Home Equity Loan some years later. It doesnt actually add up and raises the questions that i believe are at the heart of the investigation to cohen, whose money was that really . Whose transactions are those . Who purchased those apartments from which he made on paper the millions of millions of dollars . It doesnt add up. Something is going to drop here. And on a second point, joe, you know, its not against the law to give your lawyer a bunch of money to run a slush fund to pay off people you had affairs with. It is against the law if you do it for Campaign Purposes and dont report it to the fbc. Its not just a matter for the fbc, you do that on purpose, not report it and know its against the law, its a matter for the Justice Department. Giuliani got him in trouble and of course donald trump made the situation worse because first of all, youre exactly right. John heilemann, if you make the payment, or if somebody makes a payment for you, like for instance, let me break this down. We always freaked out in my political campaigns about whether we got the exact value of the barbecue that somebody contributed for a fundraiser. And if it was 3,422, we had to go up to them, we had to get the receipts, we had to write it down because thats called an inkind contribution. Somebody is doing us a favor. And those are subject to the same limits as cash payments. Right. Well, in this case, if he gets an inkind contribution, well, thats illegal. Unless trump says he thinks he paid it back. But theres still no reporting there. And 120,000 right before a president ial campaign, that is significant. Right. Its significant. Theres no doubt about it. The Campaign Finance issues that rudy has caused problems for trump repeatedly every time he tries to talk about it to clean up, he raises the possibility of a new campaign violation. Ill just say to go back to your point, joe, lets focus a little more on the time line you did before, make it clearer about whats really going on in this time line. The alleged affair took place in 2006. Stormy daniels said she had one sexual encounter with donald trump. Okay . So, ten years go by in which according the story theyre telling is the reason that she was paid off was to save Melania Trump from the pain of hearing about this affair. All right . So for ten years no money exchanges hands. Now we get to october of 2016, as you point out, its a few weeks, couple weeks before the president ial election, but on top of that its coming after the access Hollywood Tape. What happened is the access Hollywood Tape has come out where we hear donald trump talking about grabbing women by the private parts. More than a dozen women have come forward and accused donald trump of sexuality assault or sexual harassment. At the end of that, Melania Trump heard all those things, after all that, their argument is that then they said you know what, M