The president a moron . You know, thats a really old question. Do you understand that by not answering the question some people thought you were confirming the story. I think ive answered the question. You think you answered the request he . Ive answered the question. Did you call the president a moron . Im not going to dignify the question. As secretary of state back in february Rex Tillerson was still dancing around what he really thought about donald trump. It is now ten months later and he is no longer holding back. Were going to show you what he had to say finally. Plus, the president mocked barack obama for cycling through three chiefs of staff. President trump is about to get his third in just two years. That is if he can find someone who wants the job who would take the job. Why the apparent front runner nick ayers turned it down. Also, we knew that Jared Kushners job is to advise, we just didnt know it was to advise a Saudi Crown Prince on pr strategy after the murder of a journalist. These are all real questions this morning, believe it or not. Welcome to morning joe. It is monday, december 10th. With us we have msnbc contributor Mike Barnicle along with Donny Deutsch and former aide to the george w. Bush white house elise jordan, carol lee and former u. S. Attorney and msnbc contributor joyce vance is with us as well. Joyce, since were talking about Jared Kushner im remind pd of what you said this weekend over a little meeting that jared had, we were all asking why bill clinton got an an airplane and sat there with Loretta Lynch who was in charge of the Justice Department who was investigating not bill clinton but investigating his wife. This weekend we have Jared Kushner inviting on the acting attorney general and actually kushner himself is under investigation. I certainly hope as much attention is paid to this as was paid attention when Loretta Lynch got on an airplane and talked to bill clinton because this is actually even worse because youve got the attacking well, the acting attorney general who has attacked the probe and actually a man who is being probed right now by mueller. Yeah, its actually entirely different situations. Lynchs meeting with president clinton on the tarmac came near the end of that investigation whereas kushner who is clearly in the lens right now with no decisions made invited the acting attorney general to join him on marine one. There should be outrage and uproar and a call for the acting attorney general to recuse from further participation in the investigation. Yeah. Mika, no doubt. Thats what happened with Loretta Lynch. Thats what should happen today with the acting attorney general. On so many levels they just they dont care. Well, thats why the press has to care. Again, the attention that everybody including us put on the Loretta Lynch bill clinton Meeting Needs to be focused on this meeting. Why did Jared Kushner take the person who is running the Justice Department on marine one when hes part of that when actually he is a target in that investigation . Facts and the questions is what we stick to, and weve got the most recent Court Filings by the special counsels office and they are raising new questions about the Trump Campaign and russia. As the president himself denies any wrongdoing. Here are some of the key take a ways that weve learned so far, in those documents filed on friday prosecutors say trump directed illegal hush money to two women with whom he had alleged sexual relationships before running for president. Filings allege that trump was involved in discussions about a trump property in moscow during the president ial campaign. Prosecutors also said an unnamed russian offered Michael Cohen political synergy between russia and the Trump Campaign back in november of 2015. The documents claim cohen, President Trumps former lawyer, was in contact with people connected to the white house and circulated his response to congressional inquiries. Prosecutors also allege that former Trump Campaign chair Paul Manafort has been in communication with a Senior Administration official through february of 2018, along with other contacts with Administration Officials, and had lied about it. Amid these new filings and accusations from prosecutors President Trump continues to deny any wrongdoing and insists there was no collusion with russia. Sir, did you direct Michael Cohen to commit any violations of law . No. No. No. On the mueller situation, were very happy with what we are reading because there was no collusion whatsoever. There never has been. The last thing i want is help from russia on a campaign, but as far as the report that we see according to everybody ive spoken to, i have not read it, theres absolutely no collusion, which is very important. The last thing he wanted was contact with the russians, help from the russians. The Washington Post this weekend counting at least 14 encounters between russians and his campaign. This does not happen in american campaigns unless it is a campaign run by donald trump, his children and his associates. Joyce, i want to go back to, actually, the hush money for a second. Andrew mccarthy wrote a column for fox news suggesting that donald trump was going to be indict indicted, he would likely be indicted by the Southern District of new york and with apologies to rand paul, he made a couple basic statements, which is, number one, it is a felony to direct others to make Illegal Campaign contributions. Yes, thats basic. Im not sure what Banana Republic rand paul wants to live in where you ignore he will niece if politics serves you, but thats what rand paul is talking like right now. So we know thats a felony. Number two, also, we look at the inte intent, and i know that you prosecutors have always looked at the actions of a defendant or a possible defendant to determine criminal intent. Well, donald trump pain takenly trying to cover up those illegal and miss directed payments. Finally, they were relevant. These were not clerical errors, it was relevant. In fact, you could make the argument that donald trump would never have been president if the scandalous stories about Stormy Daniels and his playboy bunny trists had gone public. Im not sure how to describe that. But it does look like hes going to be indicted at least by the Southern District of new york. You know, its really hard work being a prosecutor for the exact reason that you identify here, sometimes crimes look so obvious and so apparent to the public. Prosecutors have to go back and do the painstaking work of ensuring that they can prove with evidence that will be admissible in a courtroom all the elements of that crime beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury. So for the Campaign Finance violations the Sticking Point is the level of knowledge, its a heightened level of knowledge here. There will have to be proof that the president specifically knew he was violating Campaign Finance law. It looks like that evidence is available and david pecker who is the head of ami during much of this time is cooperating with the government and likely can shed light on what the president knew and why they acted the way that they did, but this, i think, is a problem thats just increasing for the president because its not just Campaign Finance, there could be bank fraud or other fraud sorts of violations that go along with this and then as you point out, the obstruction, the ongoing cover up will ensnare him at the end as well. So, donny, just, you know, knowing donald and knowing branding, i feel like donald is sort of lost in this parallel universe that used to work when what he said 100 times could finally become partially maybe what people thought, and now hes in washington with a special counsel breathing down his throat and he thinks he can say no collusion and that means no collusion. It might be a different reality but do you think donald is still trying to brand this . Obviously he is and its kind of laughable and pathetic at this point. Well, the other option is that hes lost his mind or hes completely completely whats the word for stupid thats more polite . I think its a little bit of both. Weve talked ad nauseam on this show about this. This is a man who has lived his entire life without checks and balances is and living in a town that was built on checks and balances and madisonian principles. I think were going to see up close and personal a guy, a man, a president completely unravel. We have a guy who at best is not playing with a full deck and now is under a pressure hes never seen his entire life and its just the beginning. This is not going to end two years from now and this is throughout the rest of his life every u. S. Attorney, the Southern District, u. S. Attorneys in virginia are going to be picking at this man and his empire. This is a man who came in and said, im bigger than the house, im bigger than the intelligence community, bigger than checks and balances, bigger than the. You dishl community, bigger than the free press and he is going to pay for that the rest of his life. This is just the beginning. Trump tower is just the beginning. Forget the Stormy Daniels not forget the Stormy Daniels and Karen Mcdougal stuff, its obviously a felony, where its going to crash and burn is on the entire Trump Organization, which is built as a criminal enterprise, built with russia money laundering. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Elise, i would put this question on the table for all of us, i mean all of us, the extended audience out there to think about. Has this president so numbed up that we dont react to this epic weekend of a president of the United States being involved in directing a conspiracy, involved in felonious lying, has this constant repetitive behavior so numbed us to outrage. I think everyone is numb because of the constant incoming of information and deeds committed by donald trump that are just so outrageous that youre just we are all desensitized to it at this point just because we are so used to the ridiculousness, the lawlessness, the flauting of norms and flauting of rules of law. Ive seen when you talk to strong Trump Supporters around the country and he has branded this as a witchhunt, he is able to say the media is against me, im your man. So with this strongest supporters, yes, they probably you know, its not really going to impact their belief in donald trump. Well, you know, nixon had his strongest supporters at the end and the constant screeching, the fact that he has spent the past several years attacking movie stars, attacking cable news hosts, attacking things that didnt matter, now when he starts attacking Robert Mueller, now when he starts attacking these investigations, everybody has heard it before. The shock isnt there. I do actually think the numbness goes to Donald Trumps tweets now. Donald trumps statements. Donald trumps outrageous remarks. People are starting to tune him out and starting to look at the facts. Carol lee, things have changed pretty dramatically. I expect nick ayers a year ago would have decided to be chief of staff. Now you have donald trump who wants a new chief of staff. Who would want that . Hes seen how that story ends. He also knows where donald trump is at this place in the presidency and yesterday said, thanks, but no thanks. So youve been following this very close ly. Whats it look like . What did the departure, the decision to get rid of john kelly look like . What did nick ayers refusal to take the job look like and what will next week look like without a chief of staff . Youve hitten on an important point which is its increasingly difficult for this president to try to find people who want to work with him. As you said, you know, who would want the chief of staff job . This have seen Reince Priebus get chewed up and spit out, john kelly get chewed up and spit out and youre heading into a point in the presidency where the House Democrats are going to rain down a bunch of investigations on this white house thats not prepared for that and you have a president who is increasingly in a really bad mood, frankly. So, you know, by all of our reporting and other reporting showed that the white house was ready to name rick ayers nick ayers, excuse me, as the next chief of staff and that kind of unraveled in recent days where you saw, you know, there was some white house staff who didnt want him to be chief of staff, they felt he was too young, there was nick ayers, you know, taking wanting to just do it in an interim capacity and the president said, no, he wanted somebody long term. What our reporting shows is there is no plan b, as is often the case in this white house. So theyre back to the drawing board and there is a number of names, some of which are familiar, you know, and some of which are new like Matt Whitaker, for instance, who may be in the running for the job, but its going to be really hard to fill this position after seeing what happened to the president s first two chiefs of staff. Trump always talked about my generals, he would call them my generals and it was so important to him to hire generals. You have a piece on nbcnews. Com about how the generals are doing. How are they doing . Thats a great question. Yeah, my colleagues and i we wrote a story about how when trump came in he had this fascination with generals, he said they are out of central casting, these are the guys you would put in the movie if he was going to make one. He picked a number of generals for really top positions. You have these generals who have stellar military careers who then get diminished working for President Trump. The president once reality sets in and that these generals he would like to cast in the movie arent going to do everything he wants them to do and say yes to everything that he wants, you know, he sours on them. Weve seen whether its Michael Flynn or general mcmaster, his National Security adviser and john kelly and even james mattis his still defense secretary but weve seen him and the president be at odds and most recently the president rejected mattis advice on who to name as the next chairman of the joint chiefs and caught him off guard with that announcement over the weekend. So, you know, the president had this idea or he liked the idea of these generals, these tough guys that he thought would work for him and then he didnt so much like the reality. Of course, carol, you bring up the point of the president ignoring james mattis suggestions and then catching him off guard. Thats why who the next chief of staff is just isnt going to matter because he doesnt follow anybodys advice. Thats really been, joyce vance, the biggest problem with the Trump Administration. I remember asking him in the middle of the campaign who do you talk to, you know, after yet another explosion and another undisciplined ranting on his part, i said who do you talk to . Who comes in that you can talk to and talk you down before you make these statements . He said, well, i just i talk to myself. I know you are not going to like the answer, but i talk to myself. I said, youre right, i dont like the answer. That is a terrible answer. That is the wrong answer. Which leads us to, joyce, the biggest problem any new chief of staff or this administration is going to face, they are about to go to legal war with Robert Mueller in a very intense back and forth and the president is unarmed because the president has refused to put together a Competent Group of attorneys and hes also failed to do what any attorney knows is the clients greatest failing, hes refused to tell his attorneys the truth. He has refused to let his attorneys in on what prosecutors are going to find. So how does any chief of staff, how does any white house lawyer stop donald trump from being indicted and possibly going down, because they have a client who just, first of all, refuses to hire competent attorneys and secondly, refuses to tell the attorneys he has the truth. At this point in an investigation that will come from both the legal front and from capitol hill, you would expect trump and his legal team to be very disciplined, very focused, and here they are, as you say, not even with a complete war room ready to deal with these issues, not with an identified chief of staff who can interface with white House Counsel and ensure smooth management of everything. The irony here, joe, might be that what ultimately insulates the president from indictment is not his legal team, not his willingness to be forthcoming and make a full confession, but rather this long standing doj policy that says you should not indict a sitting president for a lot of credential reasons that have to do with good government. That doesnt prevent prosecutors in the Southern Dis