Wow, how did you get him . Rogers professor of the presidency, jon meacham. Hes an nbc news and msnbc arc of the world universe and it slopes downward. Good to see you here, john. Thats where it all stops. Former Justice Department spokesman, matt miller. National security reporter for nbc news, Julia Ainsley is with us and nbc News National reporter heidi prisbilla and jonathan la mere. Good to have you all on board. It is thursday. Sometimes i just read the prompter and thats a mistake. Dammit. Oh, well. Mika, yesterday something happened here that was pretty interesting. We had mayor pete on. Oh, my gosh, that was quite an event. Mika and i, at least, i dont know about you, willie, got more texts, calls, emails just from everybody. This is where im at on facebook, right . No, i dont want to remember what we did in eighth grade. But we just got inundated by calls. I did. We love mayor pete. I think there is a hunger for somebody who seems and feels and sounds and looks completely real and connected with what were looking for, connection to history, connection to who we are, connection to faith that is honest, up front. This is who i am and this is what im going to bring to the table, and he does it and he you know, we did rapid fire with him. Tried lots of different angles and he was right there for everything. My phone had everything from my republican sister in law to, you know, an extremely far left best friend and everybody loved him. They kept texting me about him all day. Got a lot of them. He was so insightful. I guess the good news is that actually being insightful, being knowledgeable about the issues and also having a good, positive spiritually still counts for something in politics. You know, part of the appeal of donald trump in 2015 was he didnt talk like a politician. Pete doesnt talk like a politician except hes versed on policy. We threw how many questions at him over the course of 45 minutes. Whether or not you agreed with his answer, they were thoughtful answers. These are issues hes been thinking about. Ill say it again in Politics Performance matters. Nobody knew who he was probably a month ago. He goes out every single night. He goes and does town halls, tv appearances. If you do that over the course of a Long Campaign it adds up and makes a difference. Hes somebody to be contended with. Sometimes i wonder whether the sort of know nothing the celebration of the know nothings, whether in brittain saying we are experts. No experts. Weve heard enough from experts. Whether its the United States where donald trump clearly is not prepared for any meeting he takes. His own Staff Members say so. Politics is always about contrasts and you want to have a stark contrast with the person youre running against. Im just wondering whether this is a phase that were going to get through in a few years or whether were doomed to elect a series of president where they bathe in their ignorance and people just shun ignorance. We dont do it with brain surgeons. We dont let plumbers operate on our brains. Why would we let a guy that doesnt read, doesnt understand, doesnt want to comprehend issues run the most important country on the planet . Partly because, you know, it was a weird reaction to someone who did read and who seemed president obamas opponents saw him as professorial, aloof and elite and there is something in the american spirit that bounces us from guard rail to guardrail in terms of the temperament in terms of president s. Can you imagine a collection of more different people than George Herbert walker bush to bill clinton, bill clinton to george w. Bush and george w. Bush to barack obama. A lot of us didnt think we would see a sharper contrast except when they get aristotle and then theres this guy. The forces to answer your question directly, the forces o populism of im not going to talk about smart people, its seasonal and i think its so youre saying after 12 years of morning joe were going to its over . Its over . Our season is coming to an end . Theyre going to replace us . Its like the m. A. S. H. Finale. Barnacle is going to chopper out. Everybody is going to be left with three words, that was it . That was it . But you know, also, Elizabeth Warren is doing the same thing. Its just that we know her policy. Weve seen and heard her. Shes a policy wonk. She goes to a town hall and talks about policy. Kamala harris. Kirsten gillibrand did it. There is something else. Policy is being discussed. Hes new to us. We are just meeting him. He is so well versed on so many issues. He had some rift where he was talking about policy. I do that and mika falls asleep. Thats true. Its your delivery really. I was surprised by the number of republicans who reached out to me saying, im going to support him, because im looking for someone. In pop culture terms this is a little bit like archie bunker versus aaron sorkin. Archie bunker is president so were going to enjoy the aaron sorkin like presentation. We have a lot to get to this morning. Special Counsel Robert Mueller is expected to make his report. Yesterday President Trump made another lengthy statement to discredit the former fbi director. In january of 2017 the Intelligence Community assessed that Vladimir Putin and the russian government aspired to help President Trumps chances in the 2016 election and the fbis then director james comey revealed an open investigation into russias ties to trump allies, an inquiry for which the president said he fired comey. The doj appointed a special counsel to pick up the investigation and clearly defined terms along with any matters that may arise from it, but yesterday President Trump said he doesnt, quote, get it. Its interesting that a man gets appointed by a deputy. He writes a report. You know, never figured that one out. A deputy because of the fact that the attorney general didnt have the courage to do it himself, a deputy thats appointed appoints another man to write a report and now i have somebody writing a report that never got a vote . Its called the Mueller Report. So explain that because my voters dont get it and i dont get it. Let it come out. Let people see it. Thats up to the attorney general, but its sort of interesting that a map out of the blue just writes a report. I know that hes conflicted and i know that his best friend is comey, whos a bad cop. I had a nasty business transaction with him and other things. The day before he was retained to become special counsel i told him he wouldnt be working at the fbi and then the following day they get him for this. I dont think so. A wrong his gruesome comments about john mccain, really we didnt know it could get lower, hes flailing. It appears hes just swimmingin out in the wind. Is he stressed out . What is happening . Ive spent half a century watching people say things in washington, d. C. Im going to say those are some of the dumbest words to ever tumble out of a politicians words that ive ever heard. Homer simpson. He doesnt get it, that somebody who is unelected could write a report. He doesnt get it no, he gets it. Which means he doesnt understa understand how the Judicial Branch works. No, that cant be. He doesnt understand how the Judicial Branch works because the Supreme Court of the United States defines what the constitution of the United States is every single day by writing things, writing things despite the fact they dont have to have russians buy bots or ads on facebook to help them get their seats on the Supreme Court. Maybe could you explain. Thats what donald trump does. They dont have to worry about getting russians to help influence elections in wisconsin and michigan and yet donald trump is baffled by the concept of unelected constitutional players in a madisonian democracy. And baffled by someone writing a report, which you can understand, because he would never read a report. That was such a weird performance. He never had a business dispute with mueller. He was not told he wouldnt get the fbi job and then in some angry ventral person afterwards. Then this idea that theres a deputy hires some man who writes a report. Thats the way the Justice System works. The point of our Justice System is there are people who are not accountable to the president , dont you know, who who arent supposed to follow politics, arent supposed to follow the president s whims and are supposed to look at the law and thats what he has been hostile to throughout this investigation. He has been hostile to the fact that there isnt someone at the Justice Department who isnt loyal to him. Because sessions recused himself. He has been just flailing about since the beginning of this investigation because there wasnt anyone at doj who would do what he wanted to and quash this thing from the getgo. Jonathan, i understand from your reporting that despite the fact that this report is going to reflect the fact that the president S National Security advisor is a convicted felon, that his Campaign Advisor is a convicted felon, that his longtime attorney is a convicted felon, that his assistant Campaign Manager is a convicted felon so many. I can just stop at those four but also we can say his longterm political advisor is on his way to becoming a convicted felon. Despite this, despite having the most corrupt administration in the history of american polit s politics, your reporting suggests that Donald Trumps going to try to, quote, weaponize the Mueller Report after it comes out . So lets be clear. No one knows exactly whats in the report. We anticipate its going to be soon, but its findings are not yet known to any of us. Also to be clear, this is not a witch hunt. As you just detailed, joe, theyre the charges and indictments speak for themselves, but there is a growing sense from the president and people close to him, yes, of course, as you saw from the remarks yesterday. As frustrated as he is that this special counsel probe is to begin with, its a stain on his presidency which he feels he does not deserve, there has been anticipation among a broad swath of americans that the Mueller Report would end with a broad image that he would be led from the oval office in handcuffs. That is not expected to actually happen. And theres a growing belief in trumps circle that there isnt going to be some smoking gun here. There isnt going to be a bombshell new Bombshell Development in the final report whenever it is issued and whenever it is released so, therefore, hes going to try to hold it up as an example of government overreach. Try to say, hey, look, i gave this to you for two years. I didnt interfere. I didnt fire him and it didnt prove that i did it. We of course can take exceptions to that as you just but, jonathan, again, weve listed that four or five of his key players from the campaign are in jail or are going to jail and also Robert Mueller at least a couple of months ago had made a tiny little profit on this investigation. Right. I is going to play on the ideas of perception not reality which is not the first time hes done this. Its probably not shocking to anyone listening or watching that hes going to try to claim victory when there isnt one. Yes, hes going to suggest theres overreach, it cost too much and it went on too long. Most crucially, hes going to say this. Look, you had your shot at me. Theres not this ironclad proof that i colluded. Therefore, what are the democrats still doing on the house . Hes going to suggest that according to people we talked to, according to our reporting, that hes going to take this whether its on twitter o or a rally stage, the Mueller Report was your chance to prove this. It didnt happen. If the democrats are investigating me, theres proof that this is partisan. Willie, how long has it been going the benghazi sflegs. The second term. After the election. After Hillary Clinton lost they gave it up. They really republicans have absolutely no room to whine or complain about anything. Unlike the benghazi, people are getting sent to jail here. Again, quoting churchill, this is not the beginning of the end, this is the end of the beginning. Yeah. There are going to be a lot of prosecutors, especially in the Southern District of new york that will look at his report, and then theyre probably going to pick up prosecutions. And maybe waiting for the president when he leaves office in a couple of years or in six years. Do you think donald trump thinks that hes ever going to get these legal problems behind him . Or does he think the sins of the last 30 years will follow him for the rest of his life . I think he knows. Thats why hes worried about it. Julia, you saw his efforts there one more time to discredit bob mueller. Its just not working. If you look at the polls, he has appointed bob mueller as a man of integrity and who served himself throughout his life. Hes not a hack. He led the fbi. We know all of these things. Can he say consider the source, that this was a partisan witch hunt. Thats right, willie. I dont usually weigh in on the president s strategies here. I stay on the judicial side of this. I was thinking about what joe said earlier about politics being in contrast. I think thats really difficult for this president because we havent even seen Robert Mueller since he was appointed. He has been totally silent. There are no leaks out of his office. As much as we all might try to get more information about whats in this report, its really unknown. We think its coming any day now. We dont have a specific point. I think thats really starting to get under the president s skin. Were seeing him lash out in ways that are even less logical than weve seen in the past if thats possible and so hes starting to take these hits. Another thing he said yesterday that didnt even make a hit on the truth bulls eye at all is whether or not the president has any control over what we see in the public. He says, i think they should release everything. Well, thats not only not up to the president , its really not up to Robert Mueller. Its up to the attorney general, william barr. He will get this report from mueller and then its up to him what will go to congress. Hell have to write a brief report and then how much is actually made public. So the idea that the president is giving us some kind of gift by saying release the whole thing, i have nothing to hide, really just doesnt hold a lot of water for me. You know, matt, people close to the investigation, not the mueller investigation, but people in the senate, the house have many have said that don jr. Committed perjury. Robert mueller, if he did, certainly knows that to be the case. Ive heard from the beginning that mueller is very conservative. He wont swing for the fences. Hell report, get the information out and then hes going to let the appropriate authorities do what they do with it. Is indicting the son of a sitting president too bold of a move for Robert Mueller . Would he leave that to somebody else or is there any reason why he would hold back on indicting don jr. If, in fact, if he did commit perjury . No, if he committed a crime he would do that. There are some pieces he could refer to other prosecutors. You could see the Elliott Brady scandal about working for the uae, influence peddling, you can refer that to another prosecution team. Thats a lot of weight to ask the u. S. Attorney to indict the president s son. I think you would see mueller do that himself. One of the things people are missing about the conclusion of this investigation, if he looks at, say, don jr. Or Jared Kushner and decides what they did was really terrible. They came right up to the line of committing a crime and didnt cross that line, i dont think we should expect to see that in a public report. That was a mistake that i think we saw jim comey make. If he has evidence about them that doesnt quite rise to criminality, he shouldnt be talking about it publicly. Very different ball game with the president. Lets underline that right now. When somebody came out earlier and said we dont need complete transparency. Thats being consistent with what we all said after james comey decided not to indict Hillary Clinton but then indicted her politically. You either indict them or keep your mouth shut. Yeah, Rod Rosenstein has been trying to tamper expectations about what we see in this report. This isnt some tell all thats going to air the president s dirty laundry and then not lead to a criminal indictment especially given the high bar with the fact that many think you cant indict a sitting president. You cant come out and tar someones reputation when youre not referring them for creimina prosecution. Thats not the way the Justice Department works. Their tool is to prosecute. Its not to bring up wrongdoings someone has done. Meanwhile, the chairman of the House Oversight committee is blasting the Trump Administration for refusing to hand over documents to his committee. In an op ed for the Washington Post chairman Elijah Cummings writes in part i serve as chairman of the oversight and reform committee, the primary investigative body in the house of representatives. I have sent 12 letters to the white house on a halfdozen topics, some routin